Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

harrylittle

ROAD MAP AHEAD ....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32SLr52ef9E

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

Yep - thanks for that. Just like I’ve previously posted.

Keep taking the tablets man.

NIMAN

The problem with NPHET is that they are advising the government on the virus and it's spread only, the economy is not on their minds at all.

In their ideal would we would stay at level 5 until we have a working vaccine.

How society and the economy functions they probably don't care about. The virus would be kept under control and they have done their job.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

Keep taking the tablets man.

Not if you’ve prescribed them.

Look - it is confusing I supposed.

Death Certificate: the formal confirmation of cause of death (which in itself it complex - what you of and not with) is the death certificate. Usually a doctor but sometimes coroner (which is defined in legislation). This is a counting exercise in some respects. Nearly all people with Parkinson’s will die of pneumonia or some respiratory infection. They’ll die of a cardiac arrest, secondary to pneumonia, secondary to a respiratory infection, secondary to immobility due to Parkinson’s. Same with motor neurone disease and MS. Clearly these people died of consequences to these conditions - not of them, per se. It’s no different with Covid for a lot of people - people have underlying conditions and something comes along to make the whole situation worse and kill them. So you and all the conspiracy theorists are not exactly insightful when you say die with and not die of. This is a normal issue and normal problem that’s always been there and always will.


HIPE: Most people die in hospital and the reason for admission is documented not cause of death. Obv HIPE knows if people die but it’s not specifically recorded what you die of - it’s not built to do that. It records what people who die were admitted with. COVID is down as a secondary diagnosis in all hospitals in Ireland and I think the world as the who and icd-10 codes have advised.

HPSC: all notifiable diseases must be notified by the medical doctor to the hpsc who in turn will notify the cmo. They track and trace the disease and record of there as death as a consequence of it. This is similar but not the same as death certificates above and essentially record the ‘in reality they died from this’ position as I alluded to above. As advised by the edcd - they record confirmed, probable and possible. The probable where a tests hasn’t been done, usually.


All of the above - including the coroner - can be changed if more accurate data comes to light.

This was the way before Covid - it’s the way now. There’s no conspiracy.

karlitob

NIMAN wrote: »

The problem with NPHET is that they are advising the government on the virus and it's spread only, the economy is not on their minds at all.

In their ideal would we would stay at level 5 until we have a working vaccine.

How society and the economy functions they probably don't care about. The virus would be kept under control and they have done their job.

Why the presumption that there will be a vaccine? Or if there is one, that it will be effective. Evidence from bergamo shows that there isn’t great antibody generation or her immunity of their population cohort.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

Not if you’ve prescribed them.

Look - it is confusing I supposed.

Death Certificate: the formal confirmation of cause of death (which in itself it complex - what you of and not with) is the death certificate. Usually a doctor but sometimes coroner (which is defined in legislation). This is a counting exercise in some respects. Nearly all people with Parkinson’s will die of pneumonia or some respiratory infection. They’ll die of a cardiac arrest, secondary to pneumonia, secondary to a respiratory infection, secondary to immobility due to Parkinson’s. Same with motor neurone disease and MS. Clearly these people died of consequences to these conditions - not of them, per se. It’s no different with Covid for a lot of people - people have underlying conditions and something comes along to make the whole situation worse and kill them. So you and all the conspiracy theorists are not exactly insightful when you say die with and not die of. This is a normal issue and normal problem that’s always been there and always will.


HIPE: Most people die in hospital and the reason for admission is documented not cause of death. Obv HIPE knows if people die but it’s not specifically recorded what you die of - it’s not built to do that. It records what people who die were admitted with. COVID is down as a secondary diagnosis in all hospitals in Ireland and I think the world as the who and icd-10 codes have advised.

HPSC: all notifiable diseases must be notified by the medical doctor to the hpsc who in turn will notify the cmo. They track and trace the disease and record of there as death as a consequence of it. This is similar but not the same as death certificates above and essentially record the ‘in reality they died from this’ position as I alluded to above. As advised by the edcd - they record confirmed, probable and possible. The probable where a tests hasn’t been done, usually.


All of the above - including the coroner - can be changed if more accurate data comes to light.

This was the way before Covid - it’s the way now. There’s no conspiracy.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. For example, I don't think that Bill Gates is out to conquer the world etc. Although nothing would surprise me these days. What I do think is that, since this virus arrived, many countries have shown that their politicians and state health service are not fit for purpose. Ireland, while not the worst offender, is clearly right up there. You can throw all the figures and data you like. But as you know, lies lies statistics. Any streetwise person will know that the establishment and media in Ireland are very capable of misleading the public. Its not a conspiracy because we've seen it before. We've also seen many many times the HSE dragging people through the courts when it was plain that they were victims of medical malpractice, and finally making them settle for a payment without admission of liability. How many political scandals have there been in this country? And others? So we are not conspiracy theorists for asking the hard questions and pointing out the obvious flaws in the current management of the virus.

MelbourneMan

NIMAN wrote: »

The problem with NPHET is that they are advising the government on the virus and it's spread only, the economy is not on their minds at all.

This is not a problem. This is the remit of NPHET. Wider considerations rest with the government. That is their role.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. For example, I don't think that Bill Gates is out to conquer the world etc. Although nothing would surprise me these days. What I do think is that, since this virus arrived, many countries have shown that their politicians and state health service are not fit for purpose. Ireland, while not the worst offender, is clearly right up there. You can throw all the figures and data you like. But as you know, lies lies statistics. Any streetwise person will know that the establishment and media in Ireland are very capable of misleading the public. Its not a conspiracy because we've seen it before. We've also seen many many times the HSE dragging people through the courts when it was plain that they were victims of medical malpractice, and finally making them settle for a payment without admission of liability. How many political scandals have there been in this country? And others? So we are not conspiracy theorists for asking the hard questions and pointing out the obvious flaws in the current management of the virus.

And there we go, President Trump.

Don’t engage with the point.
Refute the facts and statistics
And throw in unrelated issues about something you known nothing about but have a ring of truth to them .....’da HSE’.

You’re a conspiracy theorist.

You’re not asking hard questions. You’re not liking the answer as they don’t support your agenda.

For example, the HSE doesn’t drag people to court. The state claims agency does - for all public sector services. It’s the SCA that will accept liability or otherwise - as per our adversarial justice system. But don’t let facts get in the way of some conspiracy theory.

Another fact - not all people who take claims against the HSE are valid, fair or correct. Imagine!!

I would willingly sacrifice my 2% pay increase if the general public would stop been such numpties and obey the rules. The reason that the restrictions aren't working is because there is nothing punitive for breaking them.

kowloonkev

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would willingly sacrifice my 2% pay increase if the general public would stop been such numpties and obey the rules. The reason that the restrictions aren't working is because there is nothing punitive for breaking them.

I don't think punitive measures for breaking guidelines is the way to go and I think that would lead to serious social unrest. I agree about the numpties but I think most people have a lot of control of their own situations, and in Ireland it shouldn't be that difficult to stick to the guidelines for one's own safety, even if others are not. I know it's annoying that numpties will extend the length of time of restrictions but we just have to be patient, and probably shaming people isn't going to get the desired outcome.

I don't actually like the level system for some reason as giving people comfort and certainty in uncertain times may be a mistake. Level 5 doesn't look that bad and to some it might be a price worth paying to have fun while at level 3 or 4. The shock factor and uncertainty actually does more to kick people into gear in my opinion. NPHET got a lot of abuse for their communication recently but I think it was unfair.

Humilde

Deleted User wrote: »

I would willingly sacrifice my 2% pay increase if the general public would stop been such numpties and obey the rules. The reason that the restrictions aren't working is because there is nothing punitive for breaking them.

Tell me one case where a lockdown has worked because of the fines handed out. In Spain, there have been hundreds of thousands of fines and the positive cases are through the roof. In Spain, people must wear a mask in the street as well as the bars, shops, buses etc. Lockdowns and masks are useless. Face the facts.

Divisadero

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would willingly sacrifice my 2% pay increase if the general public would stop been such numpties and obey the rules. The reason that the restrictions aren't working is because there is nothing punitive for breaking them.

Exactly. No matter what level the Govt decide to go with robust enforcement is what is needed and has been for some time. If they had enforced the restrictions effectively previously we might never have needed to consider moving to level 4 or 5. Give the Guards the temporary powers they need and make sure they enforce robustly without favour. Any large gatherings should be cleared on the spot. Do a proper enforced lockdown or circuit break or whatever you want to call it. If it doesn't work then we will know we have given it a proper shot. But this mish mash half assed semi-lockdown nonsense is just going to piss all sides off. Of course our Govt. are too weak to do what is needed and they keep giving into certain sectors.

People complain about NEPHET but I am glad they are salaried public servants and not elected officials. They are not concerned with optics or worried about votes. That's how it should be. Nor should they be concerned about economic issues. That is for the Govt. to deal with. An effective lockdown now could mean that retail, restaurants etc. might have a Christmas. But these half measures attemping to placate as many as possible and to have your cake and eat it mean we are doomed to failure.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

And there we go, President Trump.

Don’t engage with the point.
Refute the facts and statistics
And throw in unrelated issues about something you known nothing about but have a ring of truth to them .....’da HSE’.

You’re a conspiracy theorist.

You’re not asking hard questions. You’re not liking the answer as they don’t support your agenda.

For example, the HSE doesn’t drag people to court. The state claims agency does - for all public sector services. It’s the SCA that will accept liability or otherwise - as per our adversarial justice system. But don’t let facts get in the way of some conspiracy theory.

Another fact - not all people who take claims against the HSE are valid, fair or correct. Imagine!!

Thats the difference between you and me. My agenda is the welfare of ordinary citizens and yours is to force your medical pseudio evidence down everyones throat in spite of all the signs that its patently the wrong approach.

zerosugarbuzz

Divisadero wrote: »

Exactly. No matter what level the Govt decide to go with robust enforcement is what is needed and has been for some time. If they had enforced the restrictions effectively previously we might never have needed to consider moving to level 4 or 5. Give the Guards the temporary powers they need and make sure they enforce robustly without favour. Any large gatherings should be cleared on the spot. Do a proper enforced lockdown or circuit break or whatever you want to call it. If it doesn't work then we will know we have given it a proper shot. But this mish mash half assed semi-lockdown nonsense is just going to piss all sides off. Of course our Govt. are too weak to do what is needed and they keep giving into certain sectors.

People complain about NEPHET but I am glad they are salaried public servants and not elected officials. They are not concerned with optics or worried about votes. That's how it should be. Nor should they be concerned about economic issues. That is for the Govt. to deal with. An effective lockdown now could mean that retail, restaurants etc. might have a Christmas. But these half measures attemping to placate as many as possible and to have your cake and eat it mean we are doomed to failure.

How exactly do you propose to enforce the no guests in hour house rule? Would you put 24 hour Garda presence at everyone’s gate? I don’t know anyone who will be holding a house party but, all of my friends and family will be allowing small numbers of friends and family to visit.

mouldybiscuits

event wrote: »

NPHET arent. But the government are. They should be the ones pushing the message from NPHET and they are failing massively.

NPHET don't take into consideration the preservation of our economy. If we keep locking down we'll damage our economy beyond repair. If we don't have a working economy then nobody will have healthcare.

zerosugarbuzz

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

NPHET don't take into consideration the preservation of our economy. If we keep locking down we'll damage our economy beyond repair. If we don't have a working economy then nobody will have healthcare.

I can understand NPHET not getting the bit about the economy being lifelong public servants. But I don’t understand the general public not understanding the repercussions of lockdowns, are they really thick or what?

MelbourneMan

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

NPHET don't take into consideration the preservation of our economy. If we keep locking down we'll damage our economy beyond repair. If we don't have a working economy then nobody will have healthcare.

The economy is outside the remit of NEPHT. Their role is to provide epidemiological information and advice to the government.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

I would willingly sacrifice my 2% pay increase if the general public would stop been such numpties and obey the rules. The reason that the restrictions aren't working is because there is nothing punitive for breaking them.

This is really another manifestation of the frustration people are increasingly feeling. The people you are annoyed at are also frustrated and mentally tired, just responding very differently to it. A lot of it can't be policed and has to come down to personal responsibility. That can't be forced and strong clear public health messaging is all we have.

Nobotty

is_that_so wrote: »

This is really another manifestation of the frustration people are increasingly feeling. The people you are annoyed at are also frustrated and mentally tired, just responding very differently to it. A lot of it can't be policed and has to come down to personal responsibility. That can't be forced and strong clear public health messaging is all we have.

I'd have to say I disagree
People not washing their hands,social distancing or wearing masks properly in shops are just being pig ignorant and the cause of the problem along with pub goers at super spreader events

is_that_so

Nobotty wrote: »

I'd have to say I disagree
People not washing their hands,social distancing or wearing masks properly in shops are just being pig ignorant and the cause of the problem along with pub goers at super spreader events

As I said a growing sense of frustration! I'm not condoning any of it, just observing it. Masks are not an issue and have never been, it's the other stuff.

NPHET has changed since Tony returned. Now it’s clearly just 1 man dictating who wants to lockdown and lockdown hard.

It is only since he returned that all the lockdown talk started again. So I doubt the other 39 even agree.

Happydays2020

NPHET is past its sell by date.

We need a dedicated team in the department of the Taoiseach to manage this. It is not way beyond a public health issue.

is_that_so

Happydays2020 wrote: »

NPHET is past its sell by date.

We need a dedicated team in the department of the Taoiseach to manage this. It is not way beyond a public health issue.

It's a temporary entity, the MoH can dissolve it.

Happydays2020

is_that_so wrote: »

It's a temporary entity, the MoH can dissolve it.

I think it should be as Covid is with us for the next two years at least and we will have a series of difficult decisions ahead. This is a national emergency and it needs a dedicated team close to the political centre and should also have closer links to the ECDC. This is not a denial of Covid but rather an appreciation of the challenges which go way beyond a narrow public health view.

Humilde

Divisadero wrote: »

Exactly. No matter what level the Govt decide to go with robust enforcement is what is needed and has been for some time. If they had enforced the restrictions effectively previously we might never have needed to consider moving to level 4 or 5. Give the Guards the temporary powers they need and make sure they enforce robustly without favour. Any large gatherings should be cleared on the spot. Do a proper enforced lockdown or circuit break or whatever you want to call it. If it doesn't work then we will know we have given it a proper shot. But this mish mash half assed semi-lockdown nonsense is just going to piss all sides off. Of course our Govt. are too weak to do what is needed and they keep giving into certain sectors.

People complain about NEPHET but I am glad they are salaried public servants and not elected officials. They are not concerned with optics or worried about votes. That's how it should be. Nor should they be concerned about economic issues. That is for the Govt. to deal with. An effective lockdown now could mean that retail, restaurants etc. might have a Christmas. But these half measures attempting to placate as many as possible and to have your cake and eat it mean we are doomed to failure.

The economy may not be in their remit but surely all the other patients with other ailments and conditions should be part of their decision making. But it seems they don't give a fig about the rest of the cancer, heart disease etc sufferers out there. Both my parents have had numerous essential scans etc pushed back time and time again. These included scans to monitor life threatening pulmonary embolism, aortic aneurysm and heart disease.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

Thats the difference between you and me. My agenda is the welfare of ordinary citizens and yours is to force your medical pseudio evidence down everyones throat in spite of all the signs that its patently the wrong approach.

I would agree that there’s lots of differences between you and me. But don’t you dare ascribe any agenda to me particularly one that is as disgusting as that. All I’ve pointed out is fact, corrected error and have not put forward a crack pit unevidenced position. The main reason being is that I do not have all the evidence or knowledge. In that position, I rely on my government and follow their advice. That’s not a position - that’s a constitutional duty to the state and a moral responsibility to my fellow citizen.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

The economy may not be in their remit but surely all the other patients with other ailments and conditions should be part of their decision making. But it seems they don't give a fig about the rest of the cancer, heart disease etc sufferers out there. Both my parents have had numerous essential scans etc pushed back time and time again. These included scans to monitor life threatening pulmonary embolism, aortic aneurysm and heart disease.

Again, that’s another assertion without evidence. You don’t get the make crass assertions that senior health leaders don’t care about patients. It’s unfair and untrue. And I won’t let you do it unchallenged. If you don’t like it - I don’t care.

You’re not a doctor. Patients are treated on the basis of need depending on resource availability. That has always been the way and always will be the way. There is greater need because of Covid for resources to go elsewhere to protect all patients as best as can be done. No one promised the same service throughout a pandemic.

Sorry to hear about your parents. I’m sure you all are quite worried.

thebaz

The latest leak is , that it will be for longer than 6 weeks (inevitable)- are we going to lockdown at level 5 for the whole of winter !

November Golf

Happydays2020 wrote: »

NPHET is past its sell by date.

We need a dedicated team in the department of the Taoiseach to manage this. It is not way beyond a public health issue.

Clearly your missing the bigger picture here.

There is a dedicated team called the Senior Official Group on Covid-19 (SOG-C) from all government department.

NPHET recommendation only relates to Public Health, while SOG-C gives the cabinet advice on the Social and Economical issues.

It is the responsibility of the Cabinet to balance all advise given from NPHET and SOG-C to make a final decision on the best course of action.

Happydays2020

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

Clearly your missing the bigger picture here.

There is a dedicated team called the Senior Official Group on Covid-19 (SOG-C) from all government department.

NPHET recommendation only relates to Public Health, while SOG-C gives the cabinet advice on the Social and Economical issues.

It is the responsibility of the Cabinet to balance all advise given from NPHET and SOG-C to make a final decision on the best course of action.

I am not missing the picture. This is about having a dedicated COVID unit with full time officials closer to the centre of power rather than the current situation where advisors to NPHET are there in their capacity regarding other roles. In effect many of the same people will be involved but it will not be double jobbing and it will need to have a wider remit.

We have successful precedence for this type of structure notably re Northern Ireland.