Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

thebaz

dj jarvis wrote: »

you understand how a virus works yea?
It does not care about your rent, or a publicans livelihood, or Van Morrison or anyone, social distance, hand hygiene and face masks, if a event, a social event, gaa or athletic event needs to be canceled then so be it, you really dont understand the world you now live in. this is reality for the next 3/4 years , enjoy !!

Yes I undestand how a virus works, but I'm also worried , like many others of becoming homeless before Christmas, and having no money , you obviously arent't, but when you are hungry your priorities change , nothing to ****ing do about pubs wet or not or the GAA , just about living or in fact surviving.

kippy

thebaz wrote: »

Yes I undestand how a virus works, but I'm also worried , like many others of becoming homeless before Christmas, and having no money , you obviously arent't, but when you are hungry your priorities change , nothing to ****ing do about pubs wet or not or the GAA , just about living or in fact surviving.

Agreed.
Look at what you can do about it. What state supports are available to you/your family/your business?
In the more medium/longer term is there something else you can have a try at that isn't as impacted?
We are luckily not a third world country - there should be supports there for people.

Hellrazer

Heroditas wrote: »

There haven't been outbreaks in schools. There have been a number of positive cases and it's been said time and time again that they believe the students are getting it at home and it is not being transmitted from student to student.

Theres been 13 outbreaks in schools since early September.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-thirteen-outbreaks-in-schools-since-early-september-1.4357602

As for whether children can pass it on - in the early days of the pandemic children were called super spreaders. Now apparently they aren't!!!This is exactly what Im talking about --NPHET are opening up schools and making it the single most important goal in this pandemic without following all the advice they are given.

The jury is still out whether children can bring it home and studies are still ongoing. All of the below are recent studies that show its still unclear.

My point - stop blaming pubs and restaurants when there is no data that they are responsible for spreading the disease. Yes social interaction spreads it but schools where its almost impossible to maintain social distancing with kids and teenagers is worse than pubs and restaurants.

This government is wrong in saying children don't bring the virus home.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-research-finds-kids-just-as-likely-as-adults-to-spread-covid-19



Watch this space and believe me the cases in schools and then brought home is going to explode in Dublin over the next 3 weeks. Then they cant blame pubs and restaurants.

joe40

Hellrazer wrote: »

Theres been 13 outbreaks in schools since early September.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-thirteen-outbreaks-in-schools-since-early-september-1.4357602

As for whether children can pass it on - in the early days of the pandemic children were called super spreaders. Now apparently they aren't!!!This is exactly what Im talking about --NPHET are opening up schools and making it the single most important goal in this pandemic without following all the advice they are given.

The jury is still out whether children can bring it home and studies are still ongoing. All of the below are recent studies that show its still unclear.

My point - stop blaming pubs and restaurants when there is no data that they are responsible for spreading the disease. Yes social interaction spreads it but schools where its almost impossible to maintain social distancing with kids and teenagers is worse than pubs and restaurants.

This government is wrong in saying children don't bring the virus home.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-research-finds-kids-just-as-likely-as-adults-to-spread-covid-19



Watch this space and believe me the cases in schools and then brought home is going to explode in Dublin over the next 3 weeks. Then they cant blame pubs and restaurants.

I do understand the economic cost for pub owners and employees, but it is much more important to keep schools open than the pubs.
Schools are a major risk absolutely, but also a neccessity.

Melanchthon

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah they do. From time to time Holohan commented on them all having their own views. It's not hidden. You can look up their minutes and agendas.

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/691330-national-public-health-emergency-team-covid-19-coronavirus/

The last minutes are from the start of August, that's a fair delay!
Thanks for link though

Heroditas

Hellrazer wrote: »

Theres been 13 outbreaks in schools since early September.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-thirteen-outbreaks-in-schools-since-early-september-1.4357602

As for whether children can pass it on - in the early days of the pandemic children were called super spreaders. Now apparently they aren't!!!This is exactly what Im talking about --NPHET are opening up schools and making it the single most important goal in this pandemic without following all the advice they are given.

The jury is still out whether children can bring it home and studies are still ongoing. All of the below are recent studies that show its still unclear.

My point - stop blaming pubs and restaurants when there is no data that they are responsible for spreading the disease. Yes social interaction spreads it but schools where its almost impossible to maintain social distancing with kids and teenagers is worse than pubs and restaurants.

This government is wrong in saying children don't bring the virus home.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-research-finds-kids-just-as-likely-as-adults-to-spread-covid-19



Watch this space and believe me the cases in schools and then brought home is going to explode in Dublin over the next 3 weeks. Then they cant blame pubs and restaurants.

35 cases is not "outbreaks". That's a classic fearmongering headline from the Times.

Double O Seven

Re people who are against schools having reopened, what the F**k did they want to happen? Schools to stay closed until 2022?

Roger_007

Double O Seven wrote: »

Re people who are against schools having reopened, what the F**k did they want to happen? Schools to stay closed until 2022?

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

bloopy

TomTomTim wrote: »

Posters like the above seem to have some insights into the situation that the most of us don't, as they seem highly confident that many are breaking the rules with no obvious evidence of these claims.

It is good for us that the most perfect specimens of Irish society are here on Boards and over on reddit to serve as an example to the rest of us.

kippy

Roger_007 wrote: »

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

This is the thing. Some people think this, some think they should still be closed (as can be seen above).
And this is just one aspect - there's lots of this going on where there are two totally conflicting views.

Can't keep everyone happy.

Double O Seven

Roger_007 wrote: »

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

& there was absolutely no logic behind cancelling the leaving certificate for "health reasons" when all schools were reopening a couple of weeks later.

ArthurDayne

I can only offer what is the most ludicrous criticism I have ever made — the problem with NPHET is that they are doing their job.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, NPHET is tasked with combating the virus. If they give advice, it is primarily on that remit. It is human nature that one will seek to cover one’s own back, so the advice will always be as stringent as possible — because ultimately it is always better from a potential blame perspective to be over-cautious rather than to be deemed under-cautious or irresponsible. Sure, their advice might be economically damaging, but they aren’t economists and their liability rests within the fight against the virus. If you are in NPHET, you know that if you are ever hauled into the dogfight of a public inquiry, it will be for any failure to stop the virus getting out of control — the economy buck stops elsewhere. I don’t particularly blame them for that because that’s how I would see it if I was in NPHET and I dare say most here would also cover themselves.

What makes it all problematic is that the powers that be can more or less cover their own backs by saying that they simply followed the expert advice — but this advice might not necessarily be economically sustainable. I’m not claiming that the government isn’t also listening to experts in other fields, but it’s much harder right now to hide behind the opinion of economists than it is to hide behind medical advice. It is much more morally and ethically palatable to say that you stood by the advice that purported to save lives in the here and now, rather than inviting your opponents and the media to create a narrative that you let grannies die to save corporations.

The problem isn’t so much NPHET itself in my view, it’s the fact that the scope of what the government is relying on does not seem to be cast wide enough — to the point where NPHET seems to have become a crutch for everyone to waive liability for blame. The government needs to be braver, and needs to start getting the message out there that there is no medically or ethically perfect way of moving on from this.

MrMusician18

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I can only offer what is the most ludicrous criticism I have ever made — the problem with NPHET is that they are doing their job.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, NPHET is tasked with combating the virus. If they give advice, it is primarily on that remit. It is human nature that one will seek to cover one’s own back, so the advice will always be as stringent as possible — because ultimately it is always better from a potential blame perspective to be over-cautious rather than to be deemed under-cautious or irresponsible. Sure, their advice might be economically damaging, but they aren’t economists and their liability rests within the fight against the virus. If you are in NPHET, you know that if you are ever hauled into the dogfight of a public inquiry, it will be for any failure to stop the virus getting out of control — the economy buck stops elsewhere. I don’t particularly blame them for that because that’s how I would see it if I was in NPHET and I dare say most here would also cover themselves.

What makes it all problematic is that the powers that be can more or less cover their own backs by saying that they simply followed the expert advice — but this advice might not necessarily be economically sustainable. I’m not claiming that the government isn’t also listening to experts in other fields, but it’s much harder right now to hide behind the opinion of economists than it is to hide behind medical advice. It is much more morally and ethically palatable to say that you stood by the advice that purported to save lives in the here and now, rather than inviting your opponents and the media to create a narrative that you let grannies die to save corporations.

The problem isn’t so much NPHET itself in my view, it’s the fact that the scope of what the government is relying on does not seem to be cast wide enough — to the point where NPHET seems to have become a crutch for everyone to waive liability for blame. The government needs to be braver, and needs to start getting the message out there that there is no medically or ethically perfect way of moving on from this.

Presumably the answer here would be to broaden the remit and expertise of NPHET?

Patrick2010

Or maybe the government might say we respect Nephets opinion but we have to make decisions based on the wider interests of the country ? No chance of Michael M doing that now

ArthurDayne

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Presumably the answer here would be to broaden the remit and expertise of NPHET?

I guess you could seek to bring it within a wider Reopening department or taskforce but in many ways I think the same problem would still exist — an economics expert might argue a certain point but the extent to which he / she would be comfortable in openly disagreeing with the healthcare experts would potentially be questionable. If deaths did rise (an eventuality which is more or less certain any time we re-open prior to the rollout of a vaccine), who really wants to be the person who the media single out as the killer in chief?

To me though, the better approach is for government to accept the buck. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary leadership — the government needs to be willing to weigh up NPHET’s advice versus other considerations and be willing to think about the sustainability of the recommendations. If the government hides behind the advice as a liability crutch, and is not willing to disregard or dial down the recommendations, then in many ways NPHET is wielding extraordinary power over the State. That’s not me shouting conspiracy, but merely saying that there may be an issue with NPHET more or less singlehandedly calling the shots as to how the State functions when it’s not an entity that concerns itself too much with things that go beyond the immediate Covid threat (like long term sustainable economics).

The answer right now, if we actually are going to have a ‘Living with Covid’ strategy that actually involves living with Covid, is for people to have the courage to accept that sustainability in living with the virus involves a risk of increased Covid deaths. These lockdowns are not sustainable, and all the more so for an economically vulnerable country like Ireland. A sustainable policy of course means, most likely, more deaths. That’s a dark and uncomfortable thing for many to confront — but trying to create a risk free environment is an exercise in futility that will eventually create a suffering of its own.

kowloonkev

kippy wrote: »

This is the thing. Some people think this, some think they should still be closed (as can be seen above).
And this is just one aspect - there's lots of this going on where there are two totally conflicting views.

Can't keep everyone happy.

Maybe a few think schools should be closed, but most people just think they should have been reopened responsibly.

RobAMerc

NPHET is made up of senior health consultants - possibly the biggest egos in the country. They got power for a while and loved it, if you think they will let that go easily you are mistaken.
Fear is the key to their power. Has there been a day when the numbers ( good or bad ) weren't extremely worrying ? or we must not be complacent ?

I am reminded of this clip

irishblessing

Well... has there been a day when the virus actually isn't very worrying and we can all be complacent considering a very contagious virus with no known vaccine or long term immunity?

kippy

kowloonkev wrote: »

Maybe a few think schools should be closed, but most people just think they should have been reopened responsibly.

What do you mean by "responsibly"?
I can guarentee you it means different things to different people.

kowloonkev

kippy wrote: »

What do you mean by "responsibly"?
I can guarentee you it means different things to different people.

For me the main thing is that every child should be wearing a mask. It's a no brainer if they wanted the reopening to have any chance of success.

irishblessing

kippy wrote: »

What do you mean by "responsibly"?
I can guarentee you it means different things to different people.

-Guidelines and money being released earlier than they were so as to ensure the safest possible environment
-Phased reopening which would allow time to address issues that arise before everyone is fully back.
-Address the lack of a remote learning infrastructure by implementing a hybrid learning model (this will address the need to continue education for those who are medically vulnerable, become ill, need to quarantine, and also reduces the massive class sizes we have here)
-Sorting out the issue of a lack of sub teachers and using SN teachers inappropriately
-Establishing a school specific testing and tracing service through the HSE which would help minimise disruption and spread of the virus.
-I personally think older primary school students should wear masks also.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Double O Seven

kowloonkev wrote: »

For me the main thing is that every child should be wearing a mask. It's a no brainer if they wanted the reopening to have any chance of success.

You do realise that primary school aged kids would be touching their mask, touching their eyes thus rendering a mask useless

road_high

kowloonkev wrote: »

For me the main thing is that every child should be wearing a mask. It's a no brainer if they wanted the reopening to have any chance of success.

Masks...for the love of Jesus some clutching these things like rosary beads.

MyStubbleItches

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

A lot of people might just be sick of listening to an unelected government wearing blinkers imposing draconian rules on them. Curtailing life and possibly doing more harm than good to the population at this stage. IMO.

Unelected? They were elected. And if it's this STUPID SF won the election lie again, SF are full square behind NPHET, at least for the sheep that voted for them. Not for the party elite of course.

Charles Babbage

Hellrazer wrote: »

Ive said it earlier in the thread that NPHET haven't a clue what they are doing.
This lockdown of Dublin and blaming it on the pubs / restaurant industry doesn't make any sense.
I don't know one single person that contracted covid from a restaurant or pub.

Howvere theres been 13 out breaks in schools. Here in Kildare yesterday we had a school close. My daughters school has a possible case which god knows how many people its going to spread to.

The decision to keep schools open at all costs which is what is driving these restrictions is whats going to destroy this country.

That decision needs a rethink.

'outbreaks in schools' implies that the virus is transmitting widely in schools, do you know this? There are people attending schools who get the virus causing their class to be sent into isolation as a precaution, this is not an outbreak.
There is a great deal of fact free comment.

kowloonkev

kowloonkev wrote: »

For me the main thing is that every child should be wearing a mask. It's a no brainer if they wanted the reopening to have any chance of success.

We flattened the curve with no masks - in fact we were advised NOT to wear them. Now they are the holy grail, so much so that people are giving up on handwashing and social distancing. Kids will swap masks and the whole lot. A complete waste of time. I'm not sure they are actually benefitting adults either when you see so many people wearing them in idiotic ways.

What worries me more is that large swathes of the health service is still shut down. So many "heroes" are literally twiddling their thumbs on full salary.

People on Twitter attacking Leo about the cervical cancer scandal, yet since this pandemic started, NO ONE has been tested for cervical cancer. That's one small example. Thousands of people are going to die of preventable illness.

No one is talking about this. It's all COVID, COVID, COVID.

The HSE management has been an utter failure on this.

Aside from the economic disaster and the crazy levels of spending and borrowing going on at the moment. No one really talking about this either. You need lots of money to run a health service. 17.5 billion a year here.

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

What worries me more is that large swathes of the health service is still shut down. So many "heroes" are literally twiddling their thumbs on full salary.

People on Twitter attacking Leo about the cervical cancer scandal, yet since this pandemic started, NO ONE has been tested for cervical cancer. That's one small example. Thousands of people are going to die of preventable illness.

No one is talking about this. It's all COVID, COVID, COVID.

The HSE management has been an utter failure on this.

Aside from the economic disaster and the crazy levels of spending and borrowing going on at the moment. No one really talking about this either. You need lots of money to run a health service. 17.5 billion a year here.

Careful now with your facts on here.

Just shut up and do what the elected government NPHET say!

kippy

kowloonkev wrote: »

For me the main thing is that every child should be wearing a mask. It's a no brainer if they wanted the reopening to have any chance of success.

From 5 up? For 6 - 8 hours a day?
What happens to those kids that dont?

Sardonicat

kippy wrote: »

From 5 up? For 6 - 8 hours a day?
What happens to those kids that dont?

It's a piece of fabric not an iron lung

kippy

Sardonicat wrote: »

It's a piece of fabric not an iron lung

You've obviously zero experience with 5 year olds.
Or indeed school.
What kind of example are kids getting outside the school environment when swathes of the adult population refuse to wear masks.

MadYaker

Deleted User wrote: »

What worries me more is that large swathes of the health service is still shut down. So many "heroes" are literally twiddling their thumbs on full salary.

People on Twitter attacking Leo about the cervical cancer scandal, yet since this pandemic started, NO ONE has been tested for cervical cancer. That's one small example. Thousands of people are going to die of preventable illness.

No one is talking about this. It's all COVID, COVID, COVID.

The HSE management has been an utter failure on this.

Aside from the economic disaster and the crazy levels of spending and borrowing going on at the moment. No one really talking about this either. You need lots of money to run a health service. 17.5 billion a year here.

More lies https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/cervical-screening-coronavirus.html

Large swathes of the health service shut down :rolleyes:

kippy

MadYaker wrote: »

More lies https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/cervical-screening-coronavirus.html

Large swathes of the health service shut down :rolleyes:

The amount of BS people spout to suit their own agenda is unbelievable.

I know for a fact the health service were diagnosing and treating plenty illnesses during the pandemic. I was engaged myself with this back in late march and early April.

That's not to say that reduced services were in place in other areas.

MadYaker

kippy wrote: »

The amount of BS people spout to suit their own agenda is unbelievable.

I know for a fact the health service were diagnosing and treating plenty illnesses during the pandemic. I was engaged myself with this back in late march and early April.

That's not to say that reduced services were in place in other areas.

I don't understand it. Where are people getting their info from? They just have random thoughts which then get mixed up in their heads with facts?

Patrick2010

Over 600k on hospital waiting lists now, up from 500k last year, good chance a lot of these will die but it’s ok as long as they don’t die with Covid

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Over 600k on hospital waiting lists now, up from 500k last year, good chance a lot of these will die but it’s ok as long as they don’t die with Covid

Shh.

The narrative man, the narrative. I suggest you go home and turn on some RTE news.

Infini

I think the real problem isn't so much from NPHET they've been fairly consistent overall in their approach but it's rather a combination of crap communication from Mehole who has generally had a tendancy to be snarky and combatative unlike Leo who basically tells it as it is without always looking like hes bullshíting them and general exhaustion from the public.

Let's face it were looking at up to roughly 2 years of this, the rest of the year is a write off, Halloween will likely not happen in a traditional sense this year, christmas could certaily be a very different event and more low key expecially if there's another surge and into next year were looking at likely the first half of 2021 being a write off, Paddy's day likely will be very small and an expected general rollout of a covid vaccine could be during the middle of next year at best, we'd still have to get widespread innoculation of the population to achieve a herd immunity effect that would choke out this virus.

It's the hard truth that it's going to be that long and guelling slog that depresses people, the lenght of time that is realistically involved and makes them píssed off and irritable, I had trips to Canada planned myself but they're all write-offs, I dont even expect that border to reopen till next year even. Not being able to see family over there also is somewhat annoying but what else can we do exactly? End of the day this virus kills certain groups indiscriminately and it breeds quickly in the likes of enviroments like pubs and that no matter how much we hate to hear it.

All we realistically can do is take what ever precautions we can and limit our interactions with other's till a vaccine is finally rolled out.

MrMusician18

Zebra3 wrote: »

Careful now with your facts on here.

Just shut up and do what the elected government NPHET say!

What exactly do you want to happen, seeing as you're an expert.

Go on, enlighten us.

Zebra3

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What exactly do you want to happen, seeing as you're an expert.

Go on, enlighten us.

The government to take responsibility and to govern. You know? What they were elected to do by the people as per the constitution.

Not just to become rubber stampers.

Andrewf20

Another day of rising cases but no deaths. 241 in Dublin. Wouldnt be surprised if they extend the lock down. Cases trend has been going up since mid July.

kippy

Zebra3 wrote: »

The government to take responsibility and to govern. You know? What they were elected to do by the people as per the constitution.

Not just to become rubber stampers.

Look it's pretty obvious the government aren't just rubber stamping what NPHET advise. What do you think the government should do?

The be frank about it, there are some areas that really need to be sorted out. Testing and tracing being one, availability of ICU and beds in general being the other.
We've had six months to move things into place to at least start to work towards improving those things. Things that would make increases in numbers easier to manage and indeed reduce.

kippy

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Another day of rising cases but no deaths. 241 in Dublin. Wouldnt be surprised if they extend the lock down. Cases trend has been going up since mid July.

Won't be extended until further figures start to come through in two weeks. Hopefully in two weeks the result of the current Dublin lockdown will be coming through which should mean a reduction in cases from there.

Zebra3

kippy wrote: »

Look it's pretty obvious the government aren't just rubber stamping what NPHET advise.

Really?

https://www.thejournal.ie/further-coronavirus-measures-dublin-5206971-Sep2020/

You still wanna go with that?

kippy

Zebra3 wrote: »

Really?

https://www.thejournal.ie/further-coronavirus-measures-dublin-5206971-Sep2020/

You still wanna go with that?

Yeah I do.
You've no idea what you are talking about.

ixoy

kippy wrote: »

Won't be extended until further figures start to come through in two weeks. Hopefully in two weeks the result of the current Dublin lockdown will be coming through which should mean a reduction in cases from there.

We should start to see something within a week - mean time, I believe, is 5 days from infection to displaying symptoms. Add on two days for testing and hopefully we'll get a bit of a picture.

MrMusician18

Zebra3 wrote: »

The government to take responsibility and to govern. You know? What they were elected to do by the people as per the constitution.

Not just to become rubber stampers.

You say you want them to govern but they (and I) would argue that that is exactly what they are doing - taking the advice of real experts in public health, not know-it-alls on the internet.

So what would you do?

Happydays2020

I suggest people look at the health failings and look at the day jobs of NPHET.

kippy

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I suggest people look at the health failings and look at the day jobs of NPHET.

So who should advise the government on these matters?

MrMusician18

kippy wrote: »

So who should advise the government on these matters?

Seemingly randomers on the internet is the correct answer.

Who would be a public servant...

normanoffside

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Seemingly randomers on the internet is the correct answer.

Who would be a public servant...

NPHET advised the government to send untested elderly patients from Hospitals to nursing homes to free up beds and subsequently brought the virus into Nursing homes en masse..
NPHET allowed visitors into Nursing homes without restrictions against HIQA advice well into the pandemic
HPHET didn't introduce testing in Nursing home staff until over 1000 nursing home residents had died.
NPHET advised government to allow Italian Rugby Fans come to Ireland when the epidemic was low here and high in northern Itlay.
NPHET didn't advise Government to cancel St Patrick's day Parades or close pubs until public pressure made them cancel and close themselves.

NPHET have never admitted any wrong or apologised for anything.

Why does anyone still trust NPHET?