Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

road_high

DangerScouse wrote: »

Absolutely. Unfortunately Irish people have a very much "I'm alright Jack" attitude and love to blame everyone but themselves.

Absolutely not true and there was huge collective solidarity (That I never personally bought in to as lockdowns are completely useless) right through to July.
People aren’t idiots though and rightly recoil back from being treated as such.

TomTomTim

road_high wrote: »

Absolutely not true and there was huge collective solidarity (That I never personally bought in to as lockdowns are completely useless) right through to July.
People aren’t idiots though and rightly recoil back from being treated as such.

Posters like the above seem to have some insights into the situation that the most of us don't, as they seem highly confident that many are breaking the rules with no obvious evidence of these claims.

is_that_so

Hellrazer wrote: »

Ive said it earlier in the thread that NPHET haven't a clue what they are doing.
This lockdown of Dublin and blaming it on the pubs / restaurant industry doesn't make any sense.
I don't know one single person that contracted covid from a restaurant or pub.

Howvere theres been 13 out breaks in schools. Here in Kildare yesterday we had a school close. My daughters school has a possible case which god knows how many people its going to spread to.

The decision to keep schools open at all costs which is what is driving these restrictions is whats going to destroy this country.

That decision needs a rethink.

It's the restriction of contacts that is the aim not blaming pubs and restaurants. They just happen to be easy targets. Schools are viewed differently, far beyond the large number of people together argument. Educational, social and mental health questions are of a higher priority. So far we've had quite small numbers out of or in schools and a very small proportion of schools affected.

Melanchthon

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not one person. NPHET has about 50 members, dissenting voices and all.

Does NPHET have dissenting voices though? We don't really know their process and unlike the UK where SAGE members have opposing views on issues which has been reported we have never got that insight into NPHET.

Things like the attitudes to pubs are a good example, Ireland was very much the outlier in Europe but it was justified by the fact that they said they were following the evidence.
Said evidence when asked to supply it consisted of 6 or 7 newspaper article links.
They need to be more public and open about their decision making, particularly when they are often not taking the consensus view but pretending they are.

kippy

TomTomTim wrote: »

Posters like the above seem to have some insights into the situation that the most of us don't, as they seem highly confident that many are breaking the rules with no obvious evidence of these claims.

There's a percentage of people very obviously breaking the rules. To suggest otherwise is being naive. There will always be a percentage doing that. However the higher that percentage is the more community spread (people getting the disease with no known close contact) there will be. That's what's happening now I Dublin. Those numbers are going up.
The higher the percentage breaking the rules means restrictions for everyone and the removal of the option for high risk settings within the community for everyone.

Dempo1

The NPHET bashing continues, the Poll is interesting but i suspect alot of Dubs voting (I'm one by the way but left 20 years ago). I assume it's known that some of the NPHET team actually advised level 4 and the excuse for not doing so was concern about "mixed messaging", there's an irony if I ever heard one.

People still not getting NPHET"S role and that's public health advice based on statistics and hard facts. Government can say no, or pick and choose, indeed what about this absurd new oversight committee?, they had their first meeting Thursday, they considered the facts and guess what? Agreed 100% with NPHET"S recommendations, are we to now disband the new committee?

Like it or not, I've been to venues over the past few weeks, yes, looks great on arrival, impressive perspex screens, poor staff struggling with ridiculous face screens, all fine until you get your table, masks come off, the banter starts, the mingling commences, it's called normal social mixing but that's the actual problem, plain and simple. I'm not blaming venues but NOONE can be 100% sure social venues, restaurants etc are NOT part of the problem. It's the new norm for at least a year or when a vaccine is found.

Heroditas

There haven't been outbreaks in schools. There have been a number of positive cases and it's been said time and time again that they believe the students are getting it at home and it is not being transmitted from student to student.

kippy

road_high wrote: »

Absolutely not true and there was huge collective solidarity (That I never personally bought in to as lockdowns are completely useless) right through to July.
People aren’t idiots though and rightly recoil back from being treated as such.

There was always a percentage who didn't agree/believe in what was going on.
A large portion of people have lost patience since july as the messages involved in reopening are necessarily complex and not in any way binary.



Lots of people are idiots though so I disagree with you there.

is_that_so

Melanchthon wrote: »

Does NPHET have dissenting voices though? We don't really know their process and unlike the UK where SAGE members have opposing views on issues which has been reported we have never got that insight into NPHET.

Things like the attitudes to pubs are a good example, Ireland was very much the outlier in Europe but it was justified by the fact that they said they were following the evidence.
Said evidence when asked to supply it consisted of 6 or 7 newspaper article links.
They need to be more public and open about their decision making, particularly when they are often not taking the consensus view but pretending they are.

Yeah they do. From time to time Holohan commented on them all having their own views. It's not hidden. You can look up their minutes and agendas.

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/691330-national-public-health-emergency-team-covid-19-coronavirus/

Heroditas

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah they do. From time to time Holohan commented on them all having their own views. It's not hidden. You can look up their minutes and agendas.

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/691330-national-public-health-emergency-team-covid-19-coronavirus/

Useful link. Thanks for that

thebaz

dj jarvis wrote: »

you understand how a virus works yea?
It does not care about your rent, or a publicans livelihood, or Van Morrison or anyone, social distance, hand hygiene and face masks, if a event, a social event, gaa or athletic event needs to be canceled then so be it, you really dont understand the world you now live in. this is reality for the next 3/4 years , enjoy !!

Yes I undestand how a virus works, but I'm also worried , like many others of becoming homeless before Christmas, and having no money , you obviously arent't, but when you are hungry your priorities change , nothing to ****ing do about pubs wet or not or the GAA , just about living or in fact surviving.

kippy

thebaz wrote: »

Yes I undestand how a virus works, but I'm also worried , like many others of becoming homeless before Christmas, and having no money , you obviously arent't, but when you are hungry your priorities change , nothing to ****ing do about pubs wet or not or the GAA , just about living or in fact surviving.

Agreed.
Look at what you can do about it. What state supports are available to you/your family/your business?
In the more medium/longer term is there something else you can have a try at that isn't as impacted?
We are luckily not a third world country - there should be supports there for people.

Hellrazer

Heroditas wrote: »

There haven't been outbreaks in schools. There have been a number of positive cases and it's been said time and time again that they believe the students are getting it at home and it is not being transmitted from student to student.

Theres been 13 outbreaks in schools since early September.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-thirteen-outbreaks-in-schools-since-early-september-1.4357602

As for whether children can pass it on - in the early days of the pandemic children were called super spreaders. Now apparently they aren't!!!This is exactly what Im talking about --NPHET are opening up schools and making it the single most important goal in this pandemic without following all the advice they are given.

The jury is still out whether children can bring it home and studies are still ongoing. All of the below are recent studies that show its still unclear.

My point - stop blaming pubs and restaurants when there is no data that they are responsible for spreading the disease. Yes social interaction spreads it but schools where its almost impossible to maintain social distancing with kids and teenagers is worse than pubs and restaurants.

This government is wrong in saying children don't bring the virus home.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-research-finds-kids-just-as-likely-as-adults-to-spread-covid-19



Watch this space and believe me the cases in schools and then brought home is going to explode in Dublin over the next 3 weeks. Then they cant blame pubs and restaurants.

joe40

Hellrazer wrote: »

Theres been 13 outbreaks in schools since early September.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-thirteen-outbreaks-in-schools-since-early-september-1.4357602

As for whether children can pass it on - in the early days of the pandemic children were called super spreaders. Now apparently they aren't!!!This is exactly what Im talking about --NPHET are opening up schools and making it the single most important goal in this pandemic without following all the advice they are given.

The jury is still out whether children can bring it home and studies are still ongoing. All of the below are recent studies that show its still unclear.

My point - stop blaming pubs and restaurants when there is no data that they are responsible for spreading the disease. Yes social interaction spreads it but schools where its almost impossible to maintain social distancing with kids and teenagers is worse than pubs and restaurants.

This government is wrong in saying children don't bring the virus home.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-research-finds-kids-just-as-likely-as-adults-to-spread-covid-19



Watch this space and believe me the cases in schools and then brought home is going to explode in Dublin over the next 3 weeks. Then they cant blame pubs and restaurants.

I do understand the economic cost for pub owners and employees, but it is much more important to keep schools open than the pubs.
Schools are a major risk absolutely, but also a neccessity.

Melanchthon

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah they do. From time to time Holohan commented on them all having their own views. It's not hidden. You can look up their minutes and agendas.

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/691330-national-public-health-emergency-team-covid-19-coronavirus/

The last minutes are from the start of August, that's a fair delay!
Thanks for link though

Heroditas

Hellrazer wrote: »

Theres been 13 outbreaks in schools since early September.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-thirteen-outbreaks-in-schools-since-early-september-1.4357602

As for whether children can pass it on - in the early days of the pandemic children were called super spreaders. Now apparently they aren't!!!This is exactly what Im talking about --NPHET are opening up schools and making it the single most important goal in this pandemic without following all the advice they are given.

The jury is still out whether children can bring it home and studies are still ongoing. All of the below are recent studies that show its still unclear.

My point - stop blaming pubs and restaurants when there is no data that they are responsible for spreading the disease. Yes social interaction spreads it but schools where its almost impossible to maintain social distancing with kids and teenagers is worse than pubs and restaurants.

This government is wrong in saying children don't bring the virus home.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-scientists-know-about-how-children-spread-covid-19-180975396/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/older-children-spread-coronavirus-just-as-much-as-adults-study-finds-1.4308106

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-research-finds-kids-just-as-likely-as-adults-to-spread-covid-19



Watch this space and believe me the cases in schools and then brought home is going to explode in Dublin over the next 3 weeks. Then they cant blame pubs and restaurants.

35 cases is not "outbreaks". That's a classic fearmongering headline from the Times.

Double O Seven

Re people who are against schools having reopened, what the F**k did they want to happen? Schools to stay closed until 2022?

Roger_007

Double O Seven wrote: »

Re people who are against schools having reopened, what the F**k did they want to happen? Schools to stay closed until 2022?

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

bloopy

TomTomTim wrote: »

Posters like the above seem to have some insights into the situation that the most of us don't, as they seem highly confident that many are breaking the rules with no obvious evidence of these claims.

It is good for us that the most perfect specimens of Irish society are here on Boards and over on reddit to serve as an example to the rest of us.

kippy

Roger_007 wrote: »

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

This is the thing. Some people think this, some think they should still be closed (as can be seen above).
And this is just one aspect - there's lots of this going on where there are two totally conflicting views.

Can't keep everyone happy.

Double O Seven

Roger_007 wrote: »

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

& there was absolutely no logic behind cancelling the leaving certificate for "health reasons" when all schools were reopening a couple of weeks later.

ArthurDayne

I can only offer what is the most ludicrous criticism I have ever made — the problem with NPHET is that they are doing their job.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, NPHET is tasked with combating the virus. If they give advice, it is primarily on that remit. It is human nature that one will seek to cover one’s own back, so the advice will always be as stringent as possible — because ultimately it is always better from a potential blame perspective to be over-cautious rather than to be deemed under-cautious or irresponsible. Sure, their advice might be economically damaging, but they aren’t economists and their liability rests within the fight against the virus. If you are in NPHET, you know that if you are ever hauled into the dogfight of a public inquiry, it will be for any failure to stop the virus getting out of control — the economy buck stops elsewhere. I don’t particularly blame them for that because that’s how I would see it if I was in NPHET and I dare say most here would also cover themselves.

What makes it all problematic is that the powers that be can more or less cover their own backs by saying that they simply followed the expert advice — but this advice might not necessarily be economically sustainable. I’m not claiming that the government isn’t also listening to experts in other fields, but it’s much harder right now to hide behind the opinion of economists than it is to hide behind medical advice. It is much more morally and ethically palatable to say that you stood by the advice that purported to save lives in the here and now, rather than inviting your opponents and the media to create a narrative that you let grannies die to save corporations.

The problem isn’t so much NPHET itself in my view, it’s the fact that the scope of what the government is relying on does not seem to be cast wide enough — to the point where NPHET seems to have become a crutch for everyone to waive liability for blame. The government needs to be braver, and needs to start getting the message out there that there is no medically or ethically perfect way of moving on from this.

MrMusician18

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I can only offer what is the most ludicrous criticism I have ever made — the problem with NPHET is that they are doing their job.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, NPHET is tasked with combating the virus. If they give advice, it is primarily on that remit. It is human nature that one will seek to cover one’s own back, so the advice will always be as stringent as possible — because ultimately it is always better from a potential blame perspective to be over-cautious rather than to be deemed under-cautious or irresponsible. Sure, their advice might be economically damaging, but they aren’t economists and their liability rests within the fight against the virus. If you are in NPHET, you know that if you are ever hauled into the dogfight of a public inquiry, it will be for any failure to stop the virus getting out of control — the economy buck stops elsewhere. I don’t particularly blame them for that because that’s how I would see it if I was in NPHET and I dare say most here would also cover themselves.

What makes it all problematic is that the powers that be can more or less cover their own backs by saying that they simply followed the expert advice — but this advice might not necessarily be economically sustainable. I’m not claiming that the government isn’t also listening to experts in other fields, but it’s much harder right now to hide behind the opinion of economists than it is to hide behind medical advice. It is much more morally and ethically palatable to say that you stood by the advice that purported to save lives in the here and now, rather than inviting your opponents and the media to create a narrative that you let grannies die to save corporations.

The problem isn’t so much NPHET itself in my view, it’s the fact that the scope of what the government is relying on does not seem to be cast wide enough — to the point where NPHET seems to have become a crutch for everyone to waive liability for blame. The government needs to be braver, and needs to start getting the message out there that there is no medically or ethically perfect way of moving on from this.

Presumably the answer here would be to broaden the remit and expertise of NPHET?

Patrick2010

Or maybe the government might say we respect Nephets opinion but we have to make decisions based on the wider interests of the country ? No chance of Michael M doing that now

ArthurDayne

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Presumably the answer here would be to broaden the remit and expertise of NPHET?

I guess you could seek to bring it within a wider Reopening department or taskforce but in many ways I think the same problem would still exist — an economics expert might argue a certain point but the extent to which he / she would be comfortable in openly disagreeing with the healthcare experts would potentially be questionable. If deaths did rise (an eventuality which is more or less certain any time we re-open prior to the rollout of a vaccine), who really wants to be the person who the media single out as the killer in chief?

To me though, the better approach is for government to accept the buck. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary leadership — the government needs to be willing to weigh up NPHET’s advice versus other considerations and be willing to think about the sustainability of the recommendations. If the government hides behind the advice as a liability crutch, and is not willing to disregard or dial down the recommendations, then in many ways NPHET is wielding extraordinary power over the State. That’s not me shouting conspiracy, but merely saying that there may be an issue with NPHET more or less singlehandedly calling the shots as to how the State functions when it’s not an entity that concerns itself too much with things that go beyond the immediate Covid threat (like long term sustainable economics).

The answer right now, if we actually are going to have a ‘Living with Covid’ strategy that actually involves living with Covid, is for people to have the courage to accept that sustainability in living with the virus involves a risk of increased Covid deaths. These lockdowns are not sustainable, and all the more so for an economically vulnerable country like Ireland. A sustainable policy of course means, most likely, more deaths. That’s a dark and uncomfortable thing for many to confront — but trying to create a risk free environment is an exercise in futility that will eventually create a suffering of its own.

kowloonkev

kippy wrote: »

This is the thing. Some people think this, some think they should still be closed (as can be seen above).
And this is just one aspect - there's lots of this going on where there are two totally conflicting views.

Can't keep everyone happy.

Maybe a few think schools should be closed, but most people just think they should have been reopened responsibly.

RobAMerc

NPHET is made up of senior health consultants - possibly the biggest egos in the country. They got power for a while and loved it, if you think they will let that go easily you are mistaken.
Fear is the key to their power. Has there been a day when the numbers ( good or bad ) weren't extremely worrying ? or we must not be complacent ?

I am reminded of this clip

irishblessing

Well... has there been a day when the virus actually isn't very worrying and we can all be complacent considering a very contagious virus with no known vaccine or long term immunity?

kippy

kowloonkev wrote: »

Maybe a few think schools should be closed, but most people just think they should have been reopened responsibly.

What do you mean by "responsibly"?
I can guarentee you it means different things to different people.

kowloonkev

kippy wrote: »

What do you mean by "responsibly"?
I can guarentee you it means different things to different people.

For me the main thing is that every child should be wearing a mask. It's a no brainer if they wanted the reopening to have any chance of success.