Covid in Schools

km79

Choochtown wrote: »

NPHET and the government are not stupid. Of course they know that Covid is spreading like wildfire through the schools. They also know that the vast majority of these cases will be asymptomatic or so mild that the child will never go for a test.
In effect a herd immunity is spreading throughout the young so that if/when a 3rd wave comes it will be very small compared to this one.

Of course to admit to any of this would be political suicide.

(Just my theory. Feel free to pick holes in it)

Nope you have nailed it in a paragraph!

deiseindublin

There was a really handy flowchart released the unions on covid sick leave but I can't put my hand on it now.

My understanding was when you get a negative result, from that point forward, you revert to regular sick leave coming out of your rolling allowance.

wirelessdude01

deiseindublin wrote: »

There was a really handy flowchart released the unions on covid sick leave but I can't put my hand on it now.

My understanding was when you get a negative result, from that point forward, you revert to regular sick leave coming out of your rolling allowance.

There was a doctor on the CB show this morning who rightly pointed out here is too much emphasis on a negative test result. It leads to people ignoring what they are meant to do afterwards in relation to self isolation or restricted movements.

8k71ps

Choochtown wrote: »

NPHET and the government are not stupid. Of course they know that Covid is spreading like wildfire through the schools. They also know that the vast majority of these cases will be asymptomatic or so mild that the child will never go for a test.
In effect a herd immunity is spreading throughout the young so that if/when a 3rd wave comes it will be very small compared to this one.

Of course to admit to any of this would be political suicide.

(Just my theory. Feel free to pick holes in it)

Don't mind if I do lol. I would more criticise the whole logic of it, which is that we can achieve a critical mass of herd immunity , if it is even possible (it looks like antibodies trail off massively over 6 months) , via schools.

Fortunately this is simply not the case, in terms of the sheer volume of cases you would need to stop people getting serious multiple infections or it lingering in the population you'd really have to open up literally everything, not just the schools, and they'd be well aware of that, and I highly doubt they'd try it because of that.

There's also the problem that in "protecting the vulnerable" , something most of these people claim to support, they would have to remove large portions of administrative and teaching staff from most schools, making them practically inoperable anyways.

Realistically speaking it's incompetency and not malice, or at least it's more incompetency than malice.

jusvi2001

If we can accept NPHET's stand on lockdown and other control measures. why can't we listen to their advice on schools. I can understand the anxiety of teachers and non teaching staff but think about the people working in healthcare, retail and other services, they are still working under the current available guidelines from NPHET and Government. School is really important for our kids for their physical and mental well being & growth. In school they make friendships that can last a lifetime, they're learning and preparing themselves to go out into the real world.

JimmyVik

Choochtown wrote: »

NPHET and the government are not stupid. Of course they know that Covid is spreading like wildfire through the schools. They also know that the vast majority of these cases will be asymptomatic or so mild that the child will never go for a test.
In effect a herd immunity is spreading throughout the young so that if/when a 3rd wave comes it will be very small compared to this one.

Of course to admit to any of this would be political suicide.

(Just my theory. Feel free to pick holes in it)

The big problem with that strategy is that they are essentially using schools as an incubator for the virus. Then kids and teachers are going home to their families, putting grandparents and vulnerable at risk of death. People need to know if this is a risk in their household, and are constantly being told by nphet that its not. Thats criminal.

JimmyVik

jusvi2001 wrote: »

If we can accept NPHET's stand on lockdown and other control measures. why can't we listen to their advice on schools. I can understand the anxiety of teachers and non teaching staff but think about the people working in healthcare, retail and other services, they are still working under the current available guidelines from NPHET and Government. School is really important for our kids for their physical and mental well being & growth. In school they make friendships that can last a lifetime, they're learning and preparing themselves to go out into the real world.

Because they wont come out with a clear argument.
They are basically avoiding the subject all the time.
Present to the public your data on schools please.
Not one line statements and the odd number in isolation here and there.
Actually have a useful press conference and a presentation on exactly what

is happening in schools, backed up by clear, easy to understand evidence.
I mean, why would they not just do that?

khalessi

jusvi2001 wrote: »

If we can accept NPHET's stand on lockdown and other control measures. why can't we listen to their advice on schools. I can understand the anxiety of teachers and non teaching staff but think about the people working in healthcare, retail and other services, they are still working under the current available guidelines from NPHET and Government. School is really important for our kids for their physical and mental well being & growth. In school they make friendships that can last a lifetime, they're learning and preparing themselves to go out into the real world.

For one thing the definition of what is a close contact differs in schools to elsewhere. Also, the official number that the HSE has for positive cases in schools is less than the actual nunbers that have been discovered.

wirelessdude01

jusvi2001 wrote: »

If we can accept NPHET's stand on lockdown and other control measures. why can't we listen to their advice on schools. I can understand the anxiety of teachers and non teaching staff but think about the people working in healthcare, retail and other services, they are still working under the current available guidelines from NPHET and Government. School is really important for our kids for their physical and mental well being & growth. In school they make friendships that can last a lifetime, they're learning and preparing themselves to go out into the real world.

Schoos aren't just students remember there are staff as well.

My union have asked for clear and concise information on the numbers of teachers who have tested positive. We don't care if it was co tracted in/out of school. Guess what, the HSE won't provide them. When they asked for them the public ridiculing online was horrendous. Comments along the lines of who do those teachers think they are, precious teachers think they are better than everyone else. The standard rubbish.

boardlady

km79 wrote: »

GDPR
It’s all very well saying this
Imagine you are on the other side . Imagine you are the person who has contracted Covid and want your privacy protected . Imagine the school ignored this and identifies you either directly or indirectly. There are people out there only waiting for this to happen so they can make an issue out of it sadly .
It is not for school staff or management to decide who know or who doesn’t know
It’s for the HSE. That is their job . Not sure how many times that has to be repeated .
If they can’t cope then schools will have to close . They are the public health experts .

Parents are also not informing school management of positive cases . Whose fault is this ?
They are just following the same guidelines.....

Thank you. My family contracted covid recently and when we were contacted by HSE, we were specifically told not to contact the school. Or any other close contacts for that matter. They assured me that they would do all this contact tracing. They did inform the school, after which, a complete ****-show occurred. As we are a small rural school, our identities were out within minutes and parents rushed to the GP with children who were not in my child's year or ever had any contact with him.

I am not trying to make the point that people's concerns are not valid, however, the flip side for us was very stressful and victimising. The HSE did handle the relevant isolations well, and there was no sense of 'not enough/too little' done. But the lack of anonymity was horrific.

shesty

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-transmitted-in-fewer-than-10-schools-nphet-1.4392706


I agree clear cut guidelines are needed about close contacts, etc. And the track and trace system needs to be drastically improved (emphasis on drastically). But I struggle to believe it is as rampant in schools as some people think it is - at the rate it was increasing in recent weeks, it should have gone through schools like wildfire too and it does not appear to have.



That being said the demands for clear definitions of close contacts, and the Department having to come out and say that "close contact" will vary from school to school due to each school's set up, does show a large failure on their part - failure to have clear guidelines that apply to all schools from day 1, to give schools sufficient time and resources to plan their return, to reduce class numbers, to resource schools properly and to properly plan for the return to school, be it through mixed learning for children above certain ages - or whatever the choice may be.


The only bizarre bright side to this is that we appear - for now- to have held it mainly back in schools, but who knows how long we will get lucky for, particularly at second level.

JimmyVik

Triangle wrote: »

They give the covid positive test % of schools weekly (Thursday briefing) and monitor the rise in it against the standard rate.
But keep in mind nphet is looking after the health sector and the government is looking after the country. Nphet doesn't care if schools remain open or closed just the health of the health care system.

They give out meaningless stats.
so badly presented that they cannot be peer reviewed.

8k71ps

shesty wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-transmitted-in-fewer-than-10-schools-nphet-1.4392706


I agree clear cut guidelines are needed about close contacts, etc. And the track and trace system needs to be drastically improved (emphasis on drastically). But I struggle to believe it is as rampant in schools as some people think it is - at the rate it was increasing in recent weeks, it should have gone through schools like wildfire too and it does not appear to have.



That being said the demands for clear definitions of close contacts, and the Department having to come out and say that "close contact" will vary from school to school due to each school's set up, does show a large failure on their part - failure to have clear guidelines that apply to all schools from day 1, to give schools sufficient time and resources to plan their return, to reduce class numbers, to resource schools properly and to properly plan for the return to school, be it through mixed learning for children above certain ages - or whatever the choice may be.


The only bizarre bright side to this is that we appear - for now- to have held it mainly back in schools, but who knows how long we will get lucky for, particularly at second level.

A recent international study showed that schools being kept open increases rate of infection by 24% (which would make it the single biggest factor apart from possibly home visits which are essentially impossible to curtail). Kids exhibit different symptoms from adults and I think that's why they're not being picked up for the most part. Really the current currently will decide whether they're open or closed, for the most part with the daily cases decreasing in 15-24 and slowing down in 4-15 I'd say there's a decent chance it's that fewer students are being referred but who knows.

Also there can't be a clean and concise set of rules about testing because for the most part we don't have the testing resources. To test every single student in a room when there's a case like they should would lead to more class closures and testing capacity being taken from elsewhere. In all honesty I don't see how opening the schools could even theoretically be safe at present.

Choochtown

8k71ps wrote: »

Don't mind if I do lol. I would more criticise the whole logic of it, which is that we can achieve a critical mass of herd immunity , if it is even possible (it looks like antibodies trail off massively over 6 months) , via schools.

Fortunately this is simply not the case, in terms of the sheer volume of cases you would need to stop people getting serious multiple infections or it lingering in the population you'd really have to open up literally everything, not just the schools, and they'd be well aware of that, and I highly doubt they'd try it because of that.

There's also the problem that in "protecting the vulnerable" , something most of these people claim to support, they would have to remove large portions of administrative and teaching staff from most schools, making them practically inoperable anyways.

Realistically speaking it's incompetency and not malice, or at least it's more incompetency than malice.

Yeah the reduction in effectiveness of antibodies is a problem alright although that wasn't known when the strategy was decided.

In effect this strategy was thought to effectively immunise the main spreaders in society (children) for zero cost. Basically a very large chunk of the population gets a "vaccination" for free!

Are the vulnerable protected? No. Precisely why it would be political suicide to admit to any of this.

Surely the media could latch onto this? Not if they are kept happy with regular "leaks" which in effect makes them the ones who break the news to us before any government announcement.

Immoral? Probably.
Effective? That really depends on immunity and how long it lasts.

Choochtown

JimmyVik wrote: »

The big problem with that strategy is that they are essentially using schools as an incubator for the virus. Then kids and teachers are going home to their families, putting grandparents and vulnerable at risk of death. People need to know if this is a risk in their household, and are constantly being told by nphet that its not. Thats criminal.

I agree. But it's the only strategy that makes sense.
The alternative is that the health experts actually believe that this highly contagious virus is actually not being widely spread in schools which is just preposterous.

deiseindublin

deiseindublin wrote: »

There was a really handy flowchart released the unions on covid sick leave but I can't put my hand on it now.

My understanding was when you get a negative result, from that point forward, you revert to regular sick leave coming out of your rolling allowance.

Found the flowchart, issued via email on 18 September from TUI.

selectamatic

jusvi2001 wrote: »

If we can accept NPHET's stand on lockdown and other control measures. why can't we listen to their advice on schools. I can understand the anxiety of teachers and non teaching staff but think about the people working in healthcare, retail and other services, they are still working under the current available guidelines from NPHET and Government. School is really important for our kids for their physical and mental well being & growth. In school they make friendships that can last a lifetime, they're learning and preparing themselves to go out into the real world.

Healthcare, retail and other services have pretty extensive measures in place to reduce the amount of contacts they have and contact time with those contacts. Be it prior testing, reduced numbers, perspex screens, compulsory mask wearing etc.

The main thing teachers want is for them and their class to be tested should there be a positive case in the room. It's really not that much to ask for.

wirelessdude01

deiseindublin wrote: »

Found the flowchart, issued via email on 18 September from TUI.

That sounds like once you get a not detected result that you have to go on standard sickleave until you have completed your appropriate time out of school. That cannot be correct.

mirrorwall14

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

That sounds like once you get a not detected result that you have to go on standard sickleave until you have completed your appropriate time out of school. That cannot be correct.

It is. They won’t cover sick leave with covid leave once you have a negative test

wirelessdude01

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

It is. They won’t cover sick leave with covid leave once you have a negative test

But you still have to restrict movement due to having had a covid test for 48hrs.

How are our unions allowing this?

mirrorwall14

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But you still have to restrict movement due to having had a covid test for 48hrs.

How are our unions allowing this?

I was back teaching the morning after mine. It’s 48hrs from symptoms easing I thought. Mine had eased in time . I’m guessing it’s because mine really was asthma and I ended up back out for sick leave

wirelessdude01

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I was back teaching the morning after mine. It’s 48hrs from symptoms easing I thought. Mine had eased in time . I’m guessing it’s because mine really was asthma and I ended up back out for sick leave

I'm moreso looking at that document and it kinda intimated that a not detected result means you should just go back to work or else go on sick leave.

mirrorwall14

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'm moreso looking at that document and it kinda intimated that a not detected result means you should just go back to work or else go on sick leave.

Pretty much I think. Essentially it’s not covid so it’s your responsibility to switch to sick leave

deiseindublin

Yes, you still have to self isolate but it's not covid leave if you have symptoms and negative.

I think it is kind of foolish because a lot of people nearing the end of their sick leave will just go back to work, needs must.

deiseindublin

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'm moreso looking at that document and it kinda intimated that a not detected result means you should just go back to work or else go on sick leave.

Yes, you still have to self isolate but it's not covid leave if you have symptoms and negative.

I think it is kind of foolish because a lot of people nearing the end of their rolling sick leave will just go back to work, needs must.

Bobtheman

Let's hope the Asti ballot is for strike action. That can provide some negotiating power to get some clarity on figures and get high risk teachers out of the classroom.
TUI and INTO are making noises but without a ballot what's the point? Unless im missing something.

scrubs33

https://twitter.com/lichamber/status/1321400265770209281?s=21
Wagons being circled in FF? Minister doing an unbelievable job according to some. Ive seen a couple of these on my timeline so clearly its on instructions from head office

khalessi

She has also been in charge for hand sanitiser

_Fluffy_

https://m.facebook.com/groups/600905740607906?view=permalink&id=644258176272662&anchor_composer=false

Regardless of your views on the aforementioned parents’ Facebook page, the above post is noteworthy. I had no idea that teachers were supposed to turn off their Covid Tracker app in work. It is very kind of the HSE to devise a special setting in the app to allow us to pause tracking when we are in school. And isn’t this magic immunity just wonderful?!

8k71ps

selectamatic wrote: »

Healthcare, retail and other services have pretty extensive measures in place to reduce the amount of contacts they have and contact time with those contacts. Be it prior testing, reduced numbers, perspex screens, compulsory mask wearing etc.

The main thing teachers want is for them and their class to be tested should there be a positive case in the room. It's really not that much to ask for.

Considering the dearth of testing currently and the number of schools with (albeit apparent) single case incidents I would say that the numbers required for testing every school in the country like that would be astronomical. It's like contact tracing the pubs but multiplied by the number of people in education.