Covid in Schools

SpacialNeeds

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Seemingly the figure to close schools is 2500. That's reported by the news at one on Radio 1.

Schools are what will get us to that.

Also, just the once?

They said they would roll back restrictions at 100 cases and we never got to that. Then they rolled them back anyway and look where we are now.

khalessi

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Seemingly the figure to close schools is 2500. That's reported by the news at one on Radio 1.

Just listening to that. Minister who said it not identified and the reason given is the knock on effect for pupils and wider public.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11267634 around the 1144 mark

MayoAreMagic

Will Yam wrote: »

So would you argue for the schools not to reopen in January?

If they dont change their attitude towards cases in schools, and in respect to the new strain, yes I would go online. Teachers dont like working from home but I think it needs to be done.

Id question why the schools have this approach, yet when the minister for ag got a positive test, all the politicians were informed and all went into isolation.

P2C

How do you know the pupil was positive and in school ? When someone is contact traced they are asked numerous questions about school attendance. If they had attending school and their is a risk of exposure it triggers an investigation by public health. Sometime kids may become symptomatic on a Sunday but we’re absent from school on the previous Friday so the school would not be contacted by public health. So if their is no risk to the school environment or pupils why do you have the right to know? I think a student also has a right to privacy

gaiscioch wrote: »

Actually it won't "suffice" for the very obvious reason that the statistics are intentionally distorted because schools must be kept open. Or, to give an example, one of my students was recently confirmed with Covid-19 but nobody in the school was told. Nobody - teachers, principal, fellow students - had a right to know, even though some of us knew he was being tested because he divulged that information.

While that lack of transparency about a teacher's absence of a right to know if they have a confirmed Covid case in their classroom should shock most teachers (especially those of us at secondary who have up to, or more than, 200 students in our small classroom on our busiest days), the most relevant part, however, for your simplistic question is this: his positive diagnosis is conveniently not recorded on the school statistics, with the excuse being it was a "community case" (a parent had it) so even though he was in school with it, his case is recorded elsewhere as he was not tested in school. If this practice is being replicated with the statistics across the state, the official statistics on Covid in schools aren't worth a penny candle.

Covid rates in schools: comparing like with like?

byhookorbycrook

P2C wrote: »

How do you know the pupil was positive and in school ? When someone is contact traced they are asked numerous questions about school attendance. If they had attending school and their is a risk of exposure it triggers an investigation by public health. Sometime kids may become symptomatic on a Sunday but we’re absent from school on the previous Friday so the school would not be contacted by public health. So if their is no risk to the school environment or pupils why do you have the right to know? I think a student also has a right to privacy

It has been stressed that someone who is positive must isolate for 14 days , so the 48 hours is a total red herring . Sibling were to be sent to school was the advice as well. “ Close contacts “ in schools are defined like nowhere else . How is a child in a class of 30 not a close contact of a child beside them ?

Will Yam

khalessi wrote: »

At the moment the plan is for schools to reopen, but facing into a new term with rapidly rising numbers and a 40% cut to the cleaning budget will be an interesting experience. This along with Dr. Staines stating numbers are wrong in schools and they are a source of spread.

With the greatest of respect to Dr Staines, I don’t think nphet will be taking much notice of him.

Will Yam

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If they dont change their attitude towards cases in schools, and in respect to the new strain, yes I would go online. Teachers dont like working from home but I think it needs to be done.

Id question why the schools have this approach, yet when the minister for ag got a positive test, all the politicians were informed and all went into isolation.

This whole thing is about risk and benefit.

The govt has to weigh up the risk involved of keeping an activity going vs the reward of keeping/not keeping it going.

So hospitals are risky. BBC report that c 25% of all Covid cases are caught in hospitals. But would anyone argue for their closure? Obviously not - the benefit in keeping them open is too high.

Restaurants are somewhat risky.but the benefits accruing from keeping them open aren’t commensurate with the risk, so they are closed.

Supermarkets are risky, but open because the benefit in having them is immense.

When it comes to schools, there are certainly risks. But the benefits of keeping them open I believe, far outweigh the risks involved. So they remain open, and I think it will require a major shift in circumstances to close them.

What may happen is that in early January they may reopen a week late, provided that week can be made up elsewhere in the year.

P2C

A positive case has to isolate for ten days not 14. The key facts to establish are when the child displayed first symptoms and then you work back 48 hrs prior to that time and decide only then on exposure. It is not from date of test or date of result. If a child was not in school during that period their is no risk. If a sibling of a child is a household contact they should be tested and should be restricting movements for 14 days and if a household contact should not be in school . If their is no risk of exposure the school should not be informed and at no stage should anyone in my opinion in school be told who’s positive but by all means told their is a positive case. Not everyone acts rationally in these situations and you can have victim blaming

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

It has been stressed that someone who is positive must isolate for 14 days , so the 48 hours is a total red herring . Sibling were to be sent to school was the advice as well. “ Close contacts “ in schools are defined like nowhere else . How is a child in a class of 30 not a close contact of a child beside them ?

amacca

Rosita wrote: »

The answer here is 'no'. The national figure stood at 248 on 12 December. By 19 December it had increased to 527. By 23 December (which counts the last day schools were open) it had jumped to 938. Clearly there was a strong pattern of increase already established even though schools were open with the figures, on average, doubling every four/five days.

Given the self-generating nature of infection-spread (the more that's out there the more efficiently it'll spread) the current rate is to be expected. So while cases have skyrocketed recently this pattern was established in the week before schools closed. So logically 'a simple no' answers your question.

P. S. I was tempted to answer your question with the old Logic 101 advice about confusing 'causation' with 'correlation' but on examination of the figures I couldn't really find evidence of the latter anyway.

Nicely done, sadly it will probably be lost on the poster.

P2C

Schools are working in pods in primary. The pod is normally tested or pods that are within 1 m unless lots of interaction and other factors such as ventilation. If the class was indoors all day with the windows and doors shut the whole class would be tested. If the windows and doors are open only the pod might be tested. There is onwards transmission in schools but rarely beyond the pod. There’s data out their on outbreaks where theirs a few cases in a school and it’s rarely student to student transmission and more teacher to teacher. In secondary rarely any further testing as wearying masks unless breech in PPE such as break times, bus, car sharing. In a crèche it’s normally that the whole group or class are tested irrespective of ventilation

quote="byhookorbycrook;115726478"]It has been stressed that someone who is positive must isolate for 14 days , so the 48 hours is a total red herring . Sibling were to be sent to school was the advice as well. “ Close contacts “ in schools are defined like nowhere else . How is a child in a class of 30 not a close contact of a child beside them ?[/quote]

lulublue22

P2C wrote: »

Schools are working in pods in primary. The pod is normally tested or pods that are within 1 m unless lots of interaction and other factors such as ventilation. If the class was indoors all day with the windows and doors shut the whole class would be tested. If the windows and doors are open only the pod might be tested. There is onwards transmission in schools but rarely beyond the pod. There’s data out their on outbreaks where theirs a few cases in a school and it’s rarely student to student transmission and more teacher to teacher. In secondary rarely any further testing as wearying masks unless breech in PPE such as break times, bus, car sharing. In a crèche it’s normally that the whole group or class are tested irrespective of ventilation

quote="byhookorbycrook;115726478"]It has been stressed that someone who is positive must isolate for 14 days , so the 48 hours is a total red herring . Sibling were to be sent to school was the advice as well. “ Close contacts “ in schools are defined like nowhere else . How is a child in a class of 30 not a close contact of a child beside them ?

[/quote]

Interesting can you link to your source which indicates all children in a pod are tested unless the children are in class all day with no door or windows open and then the class is tested. tks

wirelessdude01

P2C wrote: »

Schools are working in pods in primary. The pod is normally tested or pods that are within 1 m unless lots of interaction and other factors such as ventilation. If the class was indoors all day with the windows and doors shut the whole class would be tested. If the windows and doors are open only the pod might be tested. There is onwards transmission in schools but rarely beyond the pod. There’s data out their on outbreaks where theirs a few cases in a school and it’s rarely student to student transmission and more teacher to teacher. In secondary rarely any further testing as wearying masks unless breech in PPE such as break times, bus, car sharing. In a crèche it’s normally that the whole group or class are tested irrespective of ventilation

quote="byhookorbycrook;115726478"]It has been stressed that someone who is positive must isolate for 14 days , so the 48 hours is a total red herring . Sibling were to be sent to school was the advice as well. “ Close contacts “ in schools are defined like nowhere else . How is a child in a class of 30 not a close contact of a child beside them ?

[/quote]

Think us teachers have knowledge that pods aren't always tested. Such is the lack of transparency and clarity that often parents when told that their child who is in the same pod as a positive case isn't a close contact they decide to get GP referral.

r93kaey5p2izun

My friend's son told me today that his school has been refusing to provide soap due to messing with it in the toilets. He says the messing is fairly bad alright, with dispenser smashed repeatedly and soap spread all around the floor. But of course he is angry at the injustice of all students being put at risk by this decision because of the actions of a few. My friend who teaches there confirmed this was true and said it has been raised with management by both students and several staff members as being totally unacceptable, but to no avail. She is annoyed about it too, but feels there's no hope of principal backing down. I wonder if the principal discloses this fact to the public health doctors conducting the risk assessment after a case - I doubt it.

amacca

Camryn Gigantic Toothpaste wrote: »

My friend's son told me today that his school has been refusing to provide soap due to messing with it in the toilets. He says the messing is fairly bad alright, with dispenser smashed repeatedly and soap spread all around the floor. But of course he is angry at the injustice of all students being put at risk by this decision because of the actions of a few. My friend who teaches there confirmed this was true and said it has been raised with management by both students and several staff members as being totally unacceptable, but to no avail. She is annoyed about it too, but feels there's no hope of principal backing down. I wonder if the principal discloses this fact to the public health doctors conducting the risk assessment after a case - I doubt it.

Of course not and probably nothing much can really be done to the delinquents engaging in the behaviour either even if they are caught......in a way you can't blame the principal it's better to try and sweep this type of horse**** under the carpet than adopt a zero tolerance approach

Because right to education etc etc

wirelessdude01

Camryn Gigantic Toothpaste wrote: »

My friend's son told me today that his school has been refusing to provide soap due to messing with it in the toilets. He says the messing is fairly bad alright, with dispenser smashed repeatedly and soap spread all around the floor. But of course he is angry at the injustice of all students being put at risk by this decision because of the actions of a few. My friend who teaches there confirmed this was true and said it has been raised with management by both students and several staff members as being totally unacceptable, but to no avail. She is annoyed about it too, but feels there's no hope of principal backing down. I wonder if the principal discloses this fact to the public health doctors conducting the risk assessment after a case - I doubt it.

Up to the parents to kick up a stink but also a show needs to be made of the little pups for their messing.

r93kaey5p2izun

amacca wrote: »

Of course not and probably nothing much can really be done to the delinquents engaging in the behaviour either even if they are caught......in a way you can't blame the principal it's better to try and sweep this type of horse**** under the carpet than adopt a zero tolerance approach

Because right to education etc etc

Yes, it's an ongoing, longstanding issue in the school apparently, with no soap provided before the pandemic for this reason. And I myself have worked in a school where this was also a big problem and no soap was available there either, and I know it's not easy to solve. The school has apparently tried to use S&S for supervision of toilets but has also been severely affected by staff shortages causing closure of whole year groups, so had to pull the supervision. I advised the lad to bring his own little bottle of soap, but of course that was deemed crazy by a 14 year old boy

deiseindublin

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If they dont change their attitude towards cases in schools, and in respect to the new strain, yes I would go online. Teachers dont like working from home but I think it needs to be done.

New circular released for SS 2 weeks ago suggested schools are open for teachers to use facilities so I'd say teachers will be teaching from schools when/if they close.

Will be easier going in, rather than listening to those with a chip on their shoulder suggesting us wfh means we should be on the PUP.

(I love to know the figures for those wfh and on the PUP :rolleyes: . Should start asking a few of the teacher haters resident educational experts here what field they're in and if they've lost their wage while working full time. )

r93kaey5p2izun

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Up to the parents to kick up a stink but also a show needs to be made of the little pups for their messing.

Problem is not being able to catch the culprits I think.

Icsics

Camryn Gigantic Toothpaste wrote: »

Problem is not being able to catch the culprits I think.

Put cameras at the sinks, even a dummy one would do the job if it was presented in a certain way

khalessi

deiseindublin wrote: »

New circular released for SS 2 weeks ago suggested schools are open for teachers to use facilities so I'd say teachers will be teaching from schools when/if they close.

If this is the case I hope it isn't compulsory otherwise my kids coming in too

P2C

The role of the school contact tracers is to identify close contacts during exposure in schools . They use the definition of close contacts as below. Mitigating factors are often people absent from class or pod during infections period, more than 1-2 meters, size of class and ceilings, Playtime , sport or ventilation , weekends or PPE. It’s a very detailed risk assessment with parents and principal. There is very good up to date data on the same website on exposures or outbreaks in schools. In my experience it’s a individual school issue or widespread community issues that causes further transmission and it’s not widespread .
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19educationalsettingscasesandclosecontactsdefinitions/

quote="lulublue22;115727903"][/quote]

Interesting can you link to your source which indicates all children in a pod are tested unless the children are in class all day with no door or windows open and then the class is tested. tks[/quote]

Rosita

Will Yam wrote: »

What may happen is that in early January they may reopen a week late, provided that week can be made up elsewhere in the year.

Why would they open a week late? There's no reason at this point to close schools (there is of course much need for practices around Covid in schools to be addressed), and if there is a reason I doubt one week will change anything. Restrictions tend to run in increments of three weeks.

khalessi

P2C wrote: »

The role of the school contact tracers is to identify close contacts during exposure in schools . They use the definition of close contacts as below. Mitigating factors are often people absent from class or pod during infections period, more than 1-2 meters, size of class and ceilings, Playtime , sport or ventilation , weekends or PPE. It’s a very detailed risk assessment with parents and principal. There is very good up to date data on the same website on exposures or outbreaks in schools. In my experience it’s a individual school issue or widespread community issues that causes further transmission and it’s not widespread .
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19educationalsettingscasesandclosecontactsdefinitions/

quote="lulublue22;115727903"]

Interesting can you link to your source which indicates all children in a pod are tested unless the children are in class all day with no door or windows open and then the class is tested. tks[/quote][/QUOTE]

It leaves out wearing a mask as a mitigating factor and also that there is a time frame of contact for 15 mnutes in other sectors but 2 hours in schools.

wirelessdude01

P2C wrote: »

The role of the school contact tracers is to identify close contacts during exposure in schools . They use the definition of close contacts as below. Mitigating factors are often people absent from class or pod during infections period, more than 1-2 meters, size of class and ceilings, Playtime , sport or ventilation , weekends or PPE. It’s a very detailed risk assessment with parents and principal. There is very good up to date data on the same website on exposures or outbreaks in schools. In my experience it’s a individual school issue or widespread community issues that causes further transmission and it’s not widespread .
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19educationalsettingscasesandclosecontactsdefinitions/

quote="lulublue22;115727903"]

Interesting can you link to your source which indicates all children in a pod are tested unless the children are in class all day with no door or windows open and then the class is tested. tks[/quote][/quote]

So what is your actual experience?

Rosita

P2C wrote: »

Schools are working in pods in primary. The pod is normally tested or pods that are within 1 m unless lots of interaction and other factors such as ventilation. If the class was indoors all day with the windows and doors shut the whole class would be tested. If the windows and doors are open only the pod might be tested. There is onwards transmission in schools but rarely beyond the pod. There’s data out their on outbreaks where theirs a few cases in a school and it’s rarely student to student transmission and more teacher to teacher. In secondary rarely any further testing as wearying masks unless breech in PPE such as break times, bus, car sharing. In a crèche it’s normally that the whole group or class are tested irrespective of ventilation

quote="byhookorbycrook;115726478"]

What is the process for establishing whether there has been a breach in PPE at break times etc. If anyone is relying on students to be truthful about that they are delusional. But would be interested to see if the process is any more complex that a simple question to the student.

P2C

Working with schools directly since September and in general the majority are doing a super job in limiting onward transmission and what drives me bananas is the comments are PH in someways are not transparent

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Interesting can you link to your source which indicates all children in a pod are tested unless the children are in class all day with no door or windows open and then the class is tested. tks

[/quote]

So what is your actual experience?[/quote]

lulublue22

P2C wrote: »

The role of the school contact tracers is to identify close contacts during exposure in schools . They use the definition of close contacts as below. Mitigating factors are often people absent from class or pod during infections period, more than 1-2 meters, size of class and ceilings, Playtime , sport or ventilation , weekends or PPE. It’s a very detailed risk assessment with parents and principal. There is very good up to date data on the same website on exposures or outbreaks in schools. In my experience it’s a individual school issue or widespread community issues that causes further transmission and it’s not widespread .
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casedefinitions/covid-19educationalsettingscasesandclosecontactsdefinitions/

quote="lulublue22;115727903"]

Interesting can you link to your source which indicates all children in a pod are tested unless the children are in class all day with no door or windows open and then the class is tested. tks[/quote][/quote]

Thanks for the link to the definition of a close contact in a school setting - however I am looking for the link to the source which stipulates all children in a pod are tested unless the doors and windows are closed when all children in the class are tested.

On the ground it has not been the case as you have stated above and it would be great to have some clarity on the issue.

khalessi

Know of 3 kids in one class with covid, no pods considered close contact as the children were defined as community transmission despite being in school prior to diagnosis and just see this on FB regarding a case of a teacher who has tested positive

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=4877613685645582&set=gm.683276175704195

lulublue22

P2C wrote: »

Working with schools directly since September and in general the majority are doing a super job in limiting onward transmission and what drives me bananas is the comments are PH in someways are not transparent

[/q
So what is your actual experience?

[/quote]

My actual experience is that it is extremely hit and miss - there seems to be a lot of variety in how the definition of a close contact is applied with no clear cut understanding as to why. It may annoy you that people feel that PH are not transparent - but in my opinion they are exactly that. Any staff member should know immediately if they fit the description of a close contact once a case has been identified - this is not the case.
The whole discord over school transmission / lack of could in my opinion been avoided by a more transparent PH response in schools. A school in cork ended up closing after an outbreak of 17 cases across the school community initially caused by lack of transparency around positive covid cases. Total outbreak among staff and community totalled 47. I have no doubt that PH are working very hard in tiring conditions and I’m not suggesting a big cover up re school transmission but transparent no not in my experience.

Leftwaffe

I think we will all go back next week but I think it might fall apart when it re opens. I noticed our place was starting to crumble a bit pre Xmas with a few cases and close contacts all over the place. Year groups sent home etc. If the cases are high in the community, which they are, schools won’t last.