Covid in Schools

khalessi

Interesting

https://twitter.com/DrZoeHyde/status/1343611613182451712

lulublue22

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

I think we will all go back next week but I think it might fall apart when it re opens. I noticed our place was starting to crumble a bit pre Xmas with a few cases and close contacts all over the place. Year groups sent home etc. If the cases are high in the community, which they are, schools won’t last.

I thought there was an uptick in clusters in schools during Dec as opposed to an isolated case here and there.

Hopefully this new variant isn’t as transmissible as they think as that could have a substantial knock on effect on schools.

amacca

Camryn Gigantic Toothpaste wrote: »

Yes, it's an ongoing, longstanding issue in the school apparently, with no soap provided before the pandemic for this reason. And I myself have worked in a school where this was also a big problem and no soap was available there either, and I know it's not easy to solve. The school has apparently tried to use S&S for supervision of toilets but has also been severely affected by staff shortages causing closure of whole year groups, so had to pull the supervision. I advised the lad to bring his own little bottle of soap, but of course that was deemed crazy by a 14 year old boy

Im with the young lad on that tbh, I think it is crazy that proper discipline can't be enforced in a school but I suppose that's what you get when all have rights and no way to enforce corresponding responsibilities when you avail of those rights.......

byhookorbycrook

P2C wrote: »

Schools are working in pods in primary. The pod is normally tested or pods that are within 1 m unless lots of interaction and other factors such as ventilation. If the class was indoors all day with the windows and doors shut the whole class would be tested. If the windows and doors are open only the pod might be tested. There is onwards transmission in schools but rarely beyond the pod. There’s data out their on outbreaks where theirs a few cases in a school and it’s rarely student to student transmission and more teacher to teacher. In secondary rarely any further testing as wearying masks unless breech in PPE such as break times, bus, car sharing. In a crèche it’s normally that the whole group or class are tested irrespective of ventilation

quote="byhookorbycrook;115726478"]It has been stressed that someone who is positive must isolate for 14 days , so the 48 hours is a total red herring . Sibling were to be sent to school was the advice as well. “ Close contacts “ in schools are defined like nowhere else . How is a child in a class of 30 not a close contact of a child beside them ?

[/QUOTE]

Are you a teacher? Your post is very wide of the mark , if so . We were promised “ enhanced protections” if schools were to remain open and nothing has been mentioned, much less provided . The hygiene budget has actually been cut for this term .

Pods are the table system that allow everything from head lice to stomach bugs.
There are no “ pods” up to second class and I can promise you that it’s rare for an entire class to be tested in primary. Even the 1m for schools was changed to “ 1 m where possible ,” so again , I ask where else is this considered safe ?


The DES still don’t fully subscribe to the existence of aerosol transmission - except in their own offices , so as many of possible of their staff have been refusing into their physical workplace . NEPS aren’t willing to enter any school this year .

As to windows , some rooms don’t have any , some rooms can’t open theirs and the children at the windows that can be opened are frozen at this stage of the year . Likewise, at this time of the year , children can be in all day , more often than not .

Masks protect others , rather than the wearer, which is why all school staff should be protected by others wearing masks too . I’m aware of cases where SNAs who provide intimate care to their students ( who don’t wear masks) being told that they are not close contacts, even when “ their “ student is positive.

jrosen

Live streaming classes are happening in my friends school in Canada. You can opt for in school or remote week on week but they are all going remote only when they return as numbers are on the rise. She said it’s working well. It’s a private school.

I asked was there any issues with streaming and kids / privacy and she said no, not that she has been made aware of.

Would this be a total non runner here? Means high risk kids or parents who choose to keep kids home could follow the classes live and be part of the learning process but would also allow for consistency if and when a class/school needed to send pupils home.

Perhaps the scale is too much?

byhookorbycrook

P2C wrote: »

Working with schools directly since September and in general the majority are doing a super job in limiting onward transmission and what drives me bananas is the comments are PH in someways are not transparent

So what is your actual experience?[/quote][/QUOTE]

Ah, “working directly with schools !” Of course- tell me , do you sit in a classroom of 8 year olds for a full day at a time ? No? I’m shocked , shocked , I tell you .

amacca

jrosen wrote: »

Live streaming classes are happening in my friends school in Canada. You can opt for in school or remote week on week but they are all going remote only when they return as numbers are on the rise. She said it’s working well. It’s a private school.

I asked was there any issues with streaming and kids / privacy and she said no, not that she has been made aware of.

Would this be a total non runner here? Means high risk kids or parents who choose to keep kids home could follow the classes live and be part of the learning process but would also allow for consistency if and when a class/school needed to send pupils home.

Perhaps the scale is too much?

Not Canada, and I could be wrong but I think in some states in USA (not that they should be a benchmark) there is a state sponsored online school which follows the curriculum that students can avail of...I think its one school/set of tutors providing structured online classes for the state/district rather than each individual school just catering to their students and the inescapable variance in provision that would bring (different resourcing etc etc)

Come to think of it I was chatting to a friend in Toronto a couple of weeks ago and their kids (primary/young) have availed of something similar I thought......

jrosen

amacca wrote: »

Not Canada, and I could be wrong but I think in some states in USA (not that they should be a benchmark) there is a state sponsored online school which follows the curriculum that students can avail of...I think its one school/set of tutors providing structured online classes for the state/district rather than each individual school just catering to their students and the inescapable variance in provision that would bring (different resourcing etc etc)

Come to think of it I was chatting to a friend in Toronto a couple of weeks ago and their kids (primary/young) have availed of something similar I thought......

Yes public schools in Toronto have similar. You have a couple of times though the school year to decide if your remote or on site. Downside being your with a random group of kids and a random teacher.

USA schools (in the state we lived anyway) have been hybrid since September with going full remote just after thanksgiving. Full streamed classes at the school my kids went too, all staff on site and streaming from the classroom.

byhookorbycrook

jrosen wrote: »

Live streaming classes are happening in my friends school in Canada. You can opt for in school or remote week on week but they are all going remote only when they return as numbers are on the rise. She said it’s working well. It’s a private school.

I asked was there any issues with streaming and my kids / privacy and she said no, not that she has been made aware of.

Would this be a total non runner here? Means high risk kids or parents who choose to keep kids home could follow the classes live and be part of the learning process but would also allow for consistency if and when a class/school needed to send pupils home.

Perhaps the scale is too much?

Privacy would be an issue , though - for students and staff alike .
I work with children with additional needs , I would prefer that groups could attend on a rota basis than to have Y’s parents watching what X can do/struggles to do . There is also the issue of device access/ broadband and those children who would be encouraged to engage vs the ones from houses where , for myriad reasons , they don’t .

I think blended learning will be the way forward , but as ever the DES have sat on their collective hands since March rather than actually get some nationally standardised system in place . At least if children were in and out to the physical classrooms in as safe a manner as possible ( and by that I meant, under the same conditions that apply to other places) it would be easier to guide them and keep them on track .

In primary , it’s not about the teacher in front of a camera , it’s about the children interacting, using concrete materials, taking an active role in learning tasks etc. etc. Even in small group situations, you sometimes just have to be beside the child , have them talk through their work to you , physically see where they are going wrong , give them the individual wink/ smile to encourage them . Hard behind a mask and visor , but even harder through a camera lens .

jrosen

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Privacy would be an issue , though - for students and staff alike .
I work with children with additional needs , I would prefer that groups could attend on a rota basis than to have Y’s parents watching what X can do/struggles to do . There is also the issue of device access/ broadband and those children who would be encouraged to engage vs the ones from houses where , for myriad reasons , they don’t .

I think blended learning will be the way forward , but as ever the DES have sat on their collective hands since March rather than actually get some nationally standardised system in place . At least if children were in and out to the physical classrooms in as safe a manner as possible ( and by that I meant, under the same conditions that apply to other places) it would be easier to guide them and keep them on track .

In primary , it’s not about the teacher in front of a camera , it’s about the children interacting, using concrete materials, taking an active role in learning tasks etc. etc. Even in small group situations, you sometimes just have to be beside the child , have them talk through their work to you , physically see where they are going wrong , give them the individual wink/ smile to encourage them . Hard behind a mask and visor , but even harder through a camera lens .

Privacy doesn’t seem to be an issue for other schools in other countries so why such a stumbling block for us.

If we are looking at the possibility of schools closing then we need to be open to the possibility of remote teaching. How can you teach if there is no time for questions, no time to ask your students if they follow? Without the actual interaction.

Nothing can replace in class learning/teaching IMO but surely trying to get as close to that as possible is what we should be atleast aiming for.

I did some streamed training over lockdown down for work and it was difficult trying to follow and also jot down questions I had to then follow up on. Feed back must have been strong because they changed the format to have periods for Q&A after that.

jrosen

Or would pre recorded lessons work better with a period of time allocated for a zoom Q&A?

Would only work for older kids

rainbowtrout

jrosen wrote: »

Privacy doesn’t seem to be an issue for other schools in other countries so why such a stumbling block for us.

If we are looking at the possibility of schools closing then we need to be open to the possibility of remote teaching. How can you teach if there is no time for questions, no time to ask your students if they follow? Without the actual interaction.

Nothing can replace in class learning/teaching IMO but surely trying to get as close to that as possible is what we should be atleast aiming for.

I did some streamed training over lockdown down for work and it was difficult trying to follow and also jot down questions I had to then follow up on. Feed back must have been strong because they changed the format to have periods for Q&A after that.

What isn't being mentioned here is that rural broadband is shite in this country. Live streaming is genuinely not an option for lots of kids that are living rurally.

And as a woodwork teacher I work with said 'you can't put a saw and planks on Teams'

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Or would pre recorded lessons work better with a period of time allocated for a zoom Q&A?

Would only work for older kids

What we discovered when we got parental questionnaires back was that you'd need 30 different solutions to keep them all happy. This is where a central framework would make our lives alot easier. No matter what schools do someone will be whinge that it isn't enough and point to what other schools are doing.

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What we discovered when we got parental questionnaires back was that you'd need 30 different solutions to keep them all happy. This is where a central framework would make our lives alot easier. No matter what schools do someone will be whinge that it isn't enough and point to what other schools are doing.

It’s not a popularity contest. It’s about delivering a education in an appropriate effective way.

I agree in a central framework. It would ensure all children have the same access to education. Otherwise it’s grossly unfair especially to exam year students.

But In areas where that’s not possible then students need to be in school. In subjects where that’s not possible students need to be in school.

I can’t see anything happening. More likely ride the wave and hope for the best.

lulublue22

jrosen wrote: »

Privacy doesn’t seem to be an issue for other schools in other countries so why such a stumbling block for us.

If we are looking at the possibility of schools closing then we need to be open to the possibility of remote teaching. How can you teach if there is no time for questions, no time to ask your students if they follow? Without the actual interaction.

Nothing can replace in class learning/teaching IMO but surely trying to get as close to that as possible is what we should be atleast aiming for.

I did some streamed training over lockdown down for work and it was difficult trying to follow and also jot down questions I had to then follow up on. Feed back must have been strong because they changed the format to have periods for Q&A after that.

Do other countries stream classes according to ability ? Do the have behaviour classes? Do they have higher levels of supports for children with additional needs ? Do they have breakout rooms for children who need time out of the class? Do they have additional programmes run by qualified s&l , OT , art therapists etc. I don’t know. I do know that I have 3 6th class children who work at a level bt 1. SI / 1st , 2 a weak 3rd and 3. a weak 5th . One of the children has serious behaviour problems . Their peers take little to no notice - I have no doubt that their peers parents would. I strongly believe each of those children but especially the child with behavior difficulties is entitled to privacy.

Outside of that we as a school found the biggest impediment to online learning was inadequate broadband , lack of appropriate devices and lack of engagement from children. From my own experience I’d agree with wirelessdude - a centralised system with clear objectives and expectations is crucial.

ETA - it’s not a popularity contest no but when there is no centralised framework it reverts into a group of parents being very happy / unhappy with the amount of work , level of interaction - too little / too much , not enough corrections / too many corrections , too much pressure to complete work / not enough pressure to complete work. In short a total nightmare. I was lucky my parents were very appreciative some friends found the discrepancy among what parents wanted extremely stressful.

khalessi

THis is how teachers are assessed in schools a number of different people stating their experience which will no doubt be ignored as it is twitter.

https://twitter.com/MartinaBroe1/status/1343649051166838785

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

It’s not a popularity contest. It’s about delivering a education in an appropriate effective way.

I agree in a central framework. It would ensure all children have the same access to education. Otherwise it’s grossly unfair especially to exam year students.

But In areas where that’s not possible then students need to be in school. In subjects where that’s not possible students need to be in school.

I can’t see anything happening. More likely ride the wave and hope for the best.

No one mentioned popularity, not sure why you mention it.

Point I'm making is that schools and teachers shouldn't have to be putting together online stuff for the situations when pods, classes, year groups, whole schools. There should be clear expectations for all involved from the department and this removes unrealistic expectations from both schools and parents.

jrosen

lulublue22 wrote: »

Do other countries stream classes according to ability ? Do the have behaviour classes? Do they have higher levels of supports for children with additional needs ? Do they have breakout rooms for children who need time out of the class? Do they have additional programmes run by qualified s&l , OT , art therapists etc. I don’t know. I do know that I have 3 6th class children who work at a level bt 1. SI / 1st , 2 a weak 3rd and 3. a weak 5th . One of the children has serious behaviour problems . Their peers take little to no notice - I have no doubt that their peers parents would. I strongly believe each of those children but especially the child with behavior difficulties is entitled to privacy.

Outside of that we as a school found the biggest impediment to online learning was inadequate broadband , lack of appropriate devices and lack of engagement from children. From my own experience I’d agree with wirelessdude - a centralised system with clear objectives and expectations is crucial.

ETA - it’s not a popularity contest no but when there is no centralised framework it reverts into a group of parents being very happy / unhappy with the amount of work , level of interaction - too little / too much , not enough corrections / too many corrections , too much pressure to complete work / not enough pressure to complete work. In short a total nightmare. I was lucky my parents were very appreciate some friends found the discrepancy among what parents wanted extremely stressful.

I would imagine that every school has their own unique problems and each class it’s own unique group of kids. I doubt Ireland holds the gold medal on that. But other schools have somehow managed to find a work around and deliver on line.

As I said I would agree with a central approach. It would offer protection to staff and students and also ensure equal access to a standard of education which is particularly important to exam students.

But if that can’t happen then we all have to except that schools will remain open.

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

I was lucky my parents were very appreciate some friends found the discrepancy among what parents wanted extremely stressful.

This was the bit I found the hardest. Very hard to differentiate online, had originally thought it would be a doddle but it wasn't. Every parent has their own ideas on what works but that then equates to 30 different plans for a teacher which isn't feasible.

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

I would imagine that every school has their own unique problems and each class it’s own unique group of kids. I doubt Ireland holds the gold medal on that. But other schools have somehow managed to find a work around and deliver on line.

As I said I would agree with a central approach. It would offer protection to staff and students and also ensure equal access to a standard of education which is particularly important to exam students.

But if that can’t happen then we all have to except that schools will remain open.

Majority of us don't want schools closed but being realistic most of us expect a total sh!tshow for the next few months with pods, classes, years, whole school, staff missing time due to covid related stuff either as patients and/or close contacts. Online/remote is gonna feature alot more and not much we can do now to minimise it occurring.

Will Yam

khalessi wrote: »

THis is how teachers are assessed in schools a number of different people stating their experience which will no doubt be ignored as it is twitter.

https://twitter.com/MartinaBroe1/status/1343649051166838785

Are you suggesting that a few anonymous tweets should drive public health policy?

And what are the teachers unions doing about this if the reports are genuine?

khalessi

Will Yam wrote: »

Are you suggesting that a few anonymous tweets should drive public health policy?

And what are the teachers unions doing about this if the reports are genuine?

No are you implying it should?
It shows yet again however that teachers are not treated the same as other sectors.
It will be interesting to see what Unions do about it, though they have been remarkably silent about a lot of things including a 40% budget cut in cleaning supplies during a pandemic.

Bobtheman

khalessi wrote: »

We have rising numbers and a 40% decrease in cleaning budget heading into term, I think the only way schools will be closed is if the parents demand it, I think they will stick to by hook or by crook.

Was that not the same terminology used to say we'd be having the leaving cert? By hook or by crook?

lulublue22

jrosen wrote: »

I would imagine that every school has their own unique problems and each class it’s own unique group of kids. I doubt Ireland holds the gold medal on that. But other schools have somehow managed to find a work around and deliver on line.

As I said I would agree with a central approach. It would offer protection to staff and students and also ensure equal access to a standard of education which is particularly important to exam students.

But if that can’t happen then we all have to except that schools will remain open.

I never indicated that Ireland held a gold medal or had unique difficulties ??? You referenced other countries which in your opinion offered a model of online learning to aspire to. Given that privacy is a concern for certain children I simply asked how they addressed the issue of children with additional needs. Given the lack of direction from this government I firmly beieve schools will stay open.
On a related note it amazes me that the inadequacies of educational provision in this country in terms of class sizes , ICT and provision for children with additional needs has yet to gain traction amongst the public.

Will Yam

khalessi wrote: »

No are you implying it should?
It shows yet again however that teachers are not treated the same as other sectors.
It will be interesting to see what Unions do about it, though they have been remarkably silent about a lot of things including a 40% budget cut in cleaning supplies during a pandemic.

Well, to be fair to the teachers unions (or at least one of them), have decided they are against some proposal to increase pay on grounds it’s insufficient.

But thats hardly a surprise.

cmssjone

Will Yam wrote: »

Well, to be fair to the teachers unions (or at least one of them), have decided they are against some proposal to increase pay on grounds it’s insufficient.

But thats hardly a surprise.

Nothing to do with regards to COVID in school, but that’s hardly a surprise.

byhookorbycrook

Just to prove my point re testing .

Will Yam

cmssjone wrote: »

Nothing to do with regards to COVID in school, but that’s hardly a surprise.

The question was asked -in the context of Covid - what are the unions doing?

The answer is objecting to the level of a pay rise.

wirelessdude01

Will Yam wrote: »

The question was asked -in the context of Covid - what are the unions doing?

The answer is objecting to the level of a pay rise.

Good man yourself, hold on tightly to the "pay" issue. Remember to always bring it into any discussion that involves teachers.

scrubs33

Unscheduled cabinet meeting tomorrow. Things must be bad. As others have pointed out surely now is the time to send as many people as possible into schools as transmission does not happen there...
Maybe it’s just me but I find the reluctance to even consider closing the schools surreal. I know the Minister is basking in the glow of high praise from the Indo and Times but surely an acknowledgement that if a certain threshold is reached consideration might be given to closing them. What will it take if a pandemic doesn’t work? Zombies? Zombies with Covid?