David Graeber RIP

Gruffalux

He may not be all that well known but I would like to mark his untimely passing. His ideas on Bull**** Jobs, published in book form in 2018, make total sense to me.
He was quite the anarchist and anti capitalist. Full of brave radical ideas. I do not know much about him to be honest, as a man, though he came across as humane, and I am sure there are many ideas of his I would disagree with. However I think he was one of the ones who most effectively called out that the Emperor has no clothes when thinking and writing about what he calls our present system of "managerial feudalism".
Pity he died before he grew old and could share more of his thoughts


"Huge swathes of people, in Europe and North America in particular, spend their entire working lives performing tasks they secretly believe do not really need to be performed. The moral and spiritual damage that comes from this situation is profound. It is a scar across our collective soul. Yet virtually no one talks about it." - David Graeber.

He talked about it.

touts

Fair play to the man. Seems to have made a lifelong career out of being a glorified university student shouting at passers by that their lifelong real world careers were the true bull**** jobs. Got to admire having the balls to do that for 40 years while maintaining a straight face.

Wanderer78

just heard, very sad news, just after getting a copy of some of his work, i ll check it out soon, rip, and thank you

Gruffalux

touts wrote: »

Fair play to the man. Seems to have made a lifelong career out of being a glorified university student shouting at passers by that their lifelong real world careers were the true bull**** jobs. Got to admire having the balls to do that for 40 years while maintaining a straight face.

He is absolutely correct. We live in a new feudalism. There are excellent meaningful jobs but a large amount of people are employed doing meaningless things that the world would be no worse off without. And that is subtly soul destroying. Most of us work longer hours than the previous genetation. With less security. Look at how the covid situation proved so many did not need to be commuting wasted hours, polluting the streets, sitting on their fattening arses in airless cubicles being supervised by others.
As for his job - he wrote a good few provocative and intelligent books. What have you done? Right back to ancient Greece and Vedic India etc etc the rulers knew that public intellectuals and philosophers are an important if not vital part of the polis. A society that tolerates dissenting vocal intellectuals is healthy - it is the one I want, even if I disagree with them. Public intellectuals are generally first to the gulags under authoritarianism. And yet you snub your nose at them.

touts

Gruffalox wrote: »

He is absolutely correct. We live in a new feudalism. There are excellent meaningful jobs but a large amount of people are employed doing meaningless things that the world would be no worse off without. And that is subtly soul destroying. Most of us work longer hours than the previous genetation. With less security. Look at how the covid situation proved so many did not need to be commuting wasted hours, polluting the streets, sitting on their fattening arses in airless cubicles being supervised by others.
As for his job - he wrote a good few provocative and intelligent books. What have you done? Right back to ancient Greece and Vedic India etc etc the rulers knew that public intellectuals and philosophers are an important if not vital part of the polis. A society that tolerates dissenting vocal intellectuals is healthy - it is the one I want, even if I disagree with them. Public intellectuals are generally first to the gulags under authoritarianism. And yet you snub your nose at them.

What have I done? Well I've clearly done more than you as I have at least read up about the true impact of anarchism and socialism on the people subjected to those governmental styles. Clearly you haven't given that you seem to somehow think it was capitalists who sent intellectuals to "Gulags".

Wanderer78

touts wrote: »

What have I done? Well I've clearly done more than you as I have at least read up about the true impact of anarchism and socialism on the people subjected to those governmental styles. Clearly you haven't given that you seem to somehow think it was capitalists who sent intellectuals to "Gulags".

our current form of capitalism, neoliberalism, potentially could be the most dangerous form of capitalism we ve ever created, it has the potential to end life on this planet, for all

Akrasia

touts wrote: »

What have I done? Well I've clearly done more than you as I have at least read up about the true impact of anarchism and socialism on the people subjected to those governmental styles. Clearly you haven't given that you seem to somehow think it was capitalists who sent intellectuals to "Gulags".

Where was this anarchist government style that did so much damage?

Gruffalux

touts wrote: »

What have I done? Well I've clearly done more than you as I have at least read up about the true impact of anarchism and socialism on the people subjected to those governmental styles. Clearly you haven't given that you seem to somehow think it was capitalists who sent intellectuals to "Gulags".

I clearly stated I do not agree with him on all counts at all. In fact I quite often disagree with his POV - extinction rebellion for example are ludramáns.
I think he has offered very valuable and intelligent contributions nonetheless. Especially in the area of economic justice. It is undeniable that what is called capitalism has contributed to terrible suffering in the world. I do not even think what we have is capitalism - it is global corporatism which is a feudal system that creates elites and the most stratified civilisation planet wide ever known. We here in the well-shod opiate-quietened west live off the backs of indentured millions. Also what you refer to as socialism was not socialism - the gulags belonged to an authoritarian regime which was socialist only in name. Your reflex response to the death of a person by sneering at his contributions to public debate as being some kind of cynical hoax does you no credit. You could have just said i do not agree with him.

touts

Gruffalox wrote: »

I clearly stated I do not agree with him on all counts at all. In fact I quite often disagree with his POV - extinction rebellion for example are ludramáns.
I think he has offered very valuable and intelligent contributions nonetheless. Especially in the area of economic justice. It is undeniable that what is called capitalism has contributed to terrible suffering in the world. I do not even think what we have is capitalism - it is global corporatism which is a feudal system that creates elites and the most stratified civilisation planet wide ever known. We here in the well-shod opiate-quietened west live off the backs of indentured millions. Also what you refer to as socialism was not socialism - the gulags belonged to an authoritarian regime which was socialist only in name. Your reflex response to the death of a person by sneering at his contributions to public debate as being some kind of cynical hoax does you no credit. You could have just said i do not agree with him.

Your vicious over the top reaction to anyone who disagrees with your political bias betrays the true danger of socialism. Anyone who disagrees with it must be eliminated. That unfortunately is the rotten core of socialism and why it inevitably ends in violent authoritarian repression of it's people.

Gruffalux

touts wrote: »

Your vicious over the top reaction to anyone who disagrees with your political bias betrays the true danger of socialism. Anyone who disagrees with it must be eliminated. That unfortunately is the rotten core of socialism and why it inevitably ends in violent authoritarian repression of it's people.

I suggest a wee cup of camomile tea, Touts. It's Friday.

Wanderer78

touts wrote: »

Your vicious over the top reaction to anyone who disagrees with your political bias betrays the true danger of socialism. Anyone who disagrees with it must be eliminated. That unfortunately is the rotten core of socialism and why it inevitably ends in violent authoritarian repression of it's people.

...and what is this form of capitalism doing?

Biker79

Dont agree with him on anti-capitalism , but his ideas on bull**** jobs are spot on.

Automation of these jobs, along with universal basic income will probably be the only solution.

I disagree about the value of public intellectuals. Historically, they had value when information was scarce. Now that its not, we don't need them as much.
Climate scientists are a good example. There should be no dispute over physical facts, and certainly not as many needed to establish these facts.

His ideas on bull**** jobs probably stemmed from working in the public service himself.

Wanderer78

Biker79 wrote: »

Dont agree with him on anti-capitalism , but his ideas on bull**** jobs are spot on.

Automation of these jobs, along with universal basic income will probably be the only solution.

I disagree about the value of public intellectuals. Historically, they had value when information was scarce. Now that its not, we don't need them as much.
Climate scientists are a good example. There should be no dispute over physical facts, and certainly not as many needed to establish these facts.

His ideas on bull**** jobs probably stemmed from working in the public service himself.

theres bullsh!t jobs in both the public and private sectors, but the existence of both sectors is critical, its important to realise, a lot of the 'information' nowadays is actually also bullsh!t

Biker79

Wanderer78 wrote: »

theres bullsh!t jobs in both the public and private sectors, but the existence of both sectors is critical, its important to realise, a lot of the 'information' nowadays is actually also bullsh!t

True, but in principal, a job in the private sector is measured directly against the value/ profit it creates. No profit, no job. Untions and legistaltion may cushion this.

I agree - a lot of information is useless, and a lot of man-hours are spent sifitng through the data scrap heap.

Yurt2

Biker79 wrote: »

Dont agree with him on anti-capitalism , but his ideas on bull**** jobs are spot on.

Automation of these jobs, along with universal basic income will probably be the only solution.

I disagree about the value of public intellectuals. Historically, they had value when information was scarce. Now that its not, we don't need them as much.
Climate scientists are a good example. There should be no dispute over physical facts, and certainly not as many needed to establish these facts.

His ideas on bull**** jobs probably stemmed from working in the public service himself.

He actually identified the problem quite correctly as being more acute in the private sector (not that it doesn't afflict the civil service). Anyone who has worked in a large firm will recognize the proliferation of units full of strategists / marketers and middle managers measuring the size of doorframes and pushing reports who fulfil essentially no function and secretly know it.

The vast majority of public sector jobs have job titles we understand what they do and they fulfil a function.

Wanderer78

Biker79 wrote: »

True, but in principal, a job in the private sector is measured directly against the value/ profit it creates. No profit, no job. Untions and legistaltion may cushion this.

I agree - a lot of information is useless, and a lot of man-hours are spent sifitng through the data scrap heap.

funny you mentioned this, i worked for a large corporation for a few years, in its 40 years of existence, this particular facility, never made a profit, apparently!

i suspect far less man hours are spent doing such operations, more than likely, more algorithm hours id say!

Gruffalux

Biker79 wrote: »

Dont agree with him on anti-capitalism , but his ideas on bull**** jobs are spot on.

Automation of these jobs, along with universal basic income will probably be the only solution.

I disagree about the value of public intellectuals. Historically, they had value when information was scarce. Now that its not, we don't need them as much.
Climate scientists are a good example. There should be no dispute over physical facts, and certainly not as many needed to establish these facts.

His ideas on bull**** jobs probably stemmed from working in the public service himself.

Perhaps - just an idea - what can confuse people is that one can agree with some things a person posits and completely disagree with others. And be perfectly amiable about it. This habit of dividing people into right or left or pro-capitalism or anti-capitalism etc etc and they must then follow all the tenets held by their ''side'' religiously is very constricting.
I would probably be considered very radical economically but have what might be called conservative views on some other social issues while being an anarchist on other social issues. People must be allowed have a multitude of ideas without being herded into an ''identity''. That is one reason why intelligent public intellectuals are valuable i think - as one can listen to different sides from people who have actually thought about it. For example I really like both Cornel West and Thomas Sewell though they are quite different.
GK Chesterton, one of the great traditionalist or conservative thinkers was a truly great pal of HG Wells who was utterly on the other side of the spectrum. I absolutely love that. That the realm of ideas and beliefs was an area they accorded each other friendly freedom. I think we could all do with more of that. We are somehow being entrained into absolutism.

Wanderer78

Gruffalox wrote: »

Perhaps - just an idea - what can confuse people is that one can agree with some things a person posits and completely disagree with others. And be perfectly amiable about it. This habit of dividing people into right or left or pro-capitalism or anti-capitalism etc etc and they must then follow all the tenets held by their ''side'' religiously is very constricting.
I would probably be considered very radical economically but have what might be called conservative views on some other social issues while being an anarchist on other social issues. People must be allowed have a multitude of ideas without being herded into an ''identity''. That is one reason why intelligent public intellectuals are valuable i think - as one can listen to different sides from people who have actually thought about it. For example I really like both Cornel West and Thomas Sewell though they are quite different.
GK Chesterton, one of the great traditionalist or conservative thinkers was a truly great pal of HG Wells who was utterly on the other side of the spectrum. I absolutely love that. That the realm of ideas and beliefs was an area they accorded each other friendly freedom. I think we could all do with more of that. We are somehow being entrained into absolutism.

a good friend of mine is strongly conservative, while im a proud lefty, we ve both realised, we more or less want the same world, with differences of course

Topgear on Dave

Gruffalox wrote: »

He is absolutely correct. We live in a new feudalism. There are excellent meaningful jobs but a large amount of people are employed doing meaningless things that the world would be no worse off without. And that is subtly soul destroying. Most of us work longer hours than the previous genetation. With less security.

This is like those brexit debates where the Brits looked back at their glorious days of empire with rose tinted glasses.:D
Lets be a little realistic about what life was like in not all that long ago.

My mother was born in a 2 room thatched cottage without electricity or running water. Sick calves, young piglets or chicks were regularly kept in the kitchen beside the open fireplace to care for them and keep them warm. Life improved after the fifth child came along and the byre at the end was converted into another room so life was much better for no.s 6&7.

Rural electrification eventually came along and for my grandparents 25th (i think) wedding anniversary the unimaginable luxury of a small fridge was procured.

Third level education? Not for my grandparents, they may have had secondary school, one or two aunts or uncles had third level, where as practically all of my generation had third level or apprenticeships.

Topgear on Dave

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...and what is this form of capitalism doing?

They've closed the pubs.

Wanderer78

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

They've closed the pubs.

or did they close themselves?

Gruffalux

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

This is like those brexit debates where the Brits looked back at their glorious days of empire with rose tinted glasses.:D
Lets be a little realistic about what life was like in not all that long ago.

My mother was born in a 2 room thatched cottage without electricity or running water. Sick calves, young piglets or chicks were regularly kept in the kitchen beside the open fireplace to care for them and keep them warm. Life improved after the fifth child came along and the byre at the end was converted into another room so life was much better for no.s 6&7.

Rural electrification eventually came along and for my grandparents 25th (i think) wedding anniversary the unimaginable luxury of a small fridge was procured.

Third level education? Not for my grandparents, they may have had secondary school, one or two aunts or uncles had third level, where as practically all of my generation had third level or apprenticeships.

This is all true. And not long ago. For many years of my life at different times including the first years of my life, I have had no indoor toilet or electricity. Most of the time it was in adult hood and I actually chose it as ...well, the accommodation suited my lifestyle, or I was living in the developing world, and I am weird!
It does not change the fact that we work longer hours now. My Dad worked in a factory and we were not well off but he got home for dinner at 1 o clock every day and started at 9. Back in at 5 to read the paper. Now people live in feeder estates and spend hours in traffic, put their children in care for up to 12 hours a day, work often bull**** jobs, and have just about enough time to throw together a fast food dinner in the evening before rinsing and repeating, 5 days a week. the weekend is barely enough time to recover. Sure, we look smarter and have gadgets and the houses are swisher, but we are still a lot of us serfs.

Wanderer78

Gruffalox wrote: »

This is all true. And not long ago. For 15 years of my life at different times including the first 6 years of my life, I have had no indoor toilet or electricity. Most of the time it was in adult hood and I actually chose it as ...well, the accommodation suited my lifestyle, or I was living in the developing world, and I am weird!
It does not change the fact that we work longer hours now. My Dad worked in a factory and we were not well off but he got home for dinner at 1 o clock every day and started at 9. Back in at 5 to read the paper. Now people live in feeder estates and spend hours in traffic, put their children in care for up to 12 hours a day, work often bull**** jobs, and have just about enough time to throw together a fast food dinner in the evening before rinsing and repeating, 5 days a week. the weekend is barely enough time to recover. Sure, we look smarter and have gadgets and the houses are swisher, but we are still a lot of us serfs.

i personally think, we should change the way we log our working hours, i think commuting time should also be included, and of course other activities such as communicating outside of hours.

Akrasia

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i personally think, we should change the way we log our working hours, i think commuting time should also be included, and of course other activities such as communicating outside of hours.

I work remotely in a tech company
I clock in every day around 9am, hardly ever clock out because while my day is theoretically finished at 5:30, I always have a few ‘bits’ to get done while also feeding kids, tidying up the house, parenting, walking the dogs etc

The biggest change in the last generation is that it now takes two full time incomes to pay the cost of living. When I grew up, my Dad worked as a rep for Irish life insurance, he could afford a house, 2 cars one of them relatively new, 4 kids, holidays and health insurance a pension, savings etc

30 years later, I had a similar level job but couldn’t afford any of those things and wouldn’t have been able to put food on the table without relying on family income supplement while we had very small kids and my wife couldn’t work

It is only now that our kids are old enough that my wife can work full time that we have any kind of leeway financially and even then it’s going to be a massive struggle to educate our kids and save for retirement etc

The boomers generation prospered on a single income household, now they are creaming profits off dual/multiple income households because they control fixed assets

CtevenSrowder

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...and what is this form of capitalism doing?

Not violently repressing people...