Aoibheann Ni Shuilleabhain Harassment Story

Nexytus

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Not denying the possibility. The University should have some measures for dealing with people like that. Getting a psychological evaluation done is the first one. Then you can determine if it's a disease or behavioral problem, and try to deal with it.

Is this evaluation part of a disciplinary process? During it or at the end of it?

And he'll be asked to volunteer for a psychological evaluation?

Psychiatric Patrick

What baffles me the inaction of the university authorities.

Did they not even have the common sense to least cover their own arses by coming down hard on the professor? Did they not even consider the optics?

The guy was a liability. Chuck him.

Edgware

The main point is that Turbridy got his name up there again

Kaybaykwah

Nexytus wrote: »

Is this evaluation part of a disciplinary process? During it or at the end of it?

And he'll be asked to volunteer for a psychological evaluation?

Yes, well, I am not able to determine that, but if repeated bad behavior is suspected, and the person collaborates, then a process of evaluation can go ahead. If the person does not collaborate earnestly, or not at all, then a judicial part takes over. I mean, have the police interview the guy, and take the process further to the courts if need be.

Nexytus

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Yes, well, I am not able to determine that, but if repeated bad behavior is suspected, and the person collaborates, then a process of evaluation can go ahead. If the person does not collaborate earnestly, or not at all, then a judicial part takes over. I mean, have the police interview the guy, and take the process further to the courts if need be.

Is this what you think happens in organisations where there is an allegation of misconduct? Someone walks into your office and says 'would you submit to a psychological examination.'
Not that that would ever happen but if it did the person would obviously say 'no'.

And the results of any hypothetical medical examination would not be available to the employer either.

expectationlost

this video by Simon Harris barely addresses the issue https://twitter.com/SimonHarrisTD/status/1302246438378901506 keeps talking about consent classes for students when this is really an employer/employee issue, Leo Varadkar's department no?

Errashareesh

Edgware wrote: »

The main point is that Turbridy got his name up there again

What are all the pot shots at her ex about?

Strumms

suicide_circus wrote: »

Anyone i've encountered that works in HR is invariably a snake

1000% of them

They are published as being in situ to protect fairness and all the rest of it, nothing is further from the truth. They are there solely to protect the interests of and to paper over cracks for managers and to slide difficult situations under the carpet with limited damage. If a manager also is having a difficult time with an employee they will advise on an expeditious yet legal pathway to enable that employees departure.

Kaybaykwah

Nexytus wrote: »

Is this what you think happens in organisations where there is an allegation of misconduct? Someone walks into your office and says 'would you submit to a psychological examination.'
Not that that would ever happen but if it did the person would obviously say 'no'.

And the results of any hypothetical medical examination would not be available to the employer either.

What I meant is that if the problem person collaborates by acknowledging they have a problem, then the organisation can ask the person to enter evaluation and therapy. The person would also be asked to avoid coming in contact with the injured party, obviously.

But that is only a first step to addressing the issue. If the problem person refuses, the guards should come in to interview, and have the injured party decide whether to ask the courts getting involved depending on the outcome. Of course, people with problematic behavior will often deny them, but the idea is for authorities in an organisation not to sweep under the carpet and nip in the bud. By offering therapeutic alternatives, higher ups can determine whether there is avoidance of behavioral issues by the problem party, and go from there.

These mechanisms should be in place from the outset, contractually speaking.
If sometime in your life as an employee, you come up with mental or behavioral issues, you should expect these things to kick in.

Errashareesh

I know plenty of decent individuals working in HR, to be fair - and their intention when choosing that line of work would never have been impure (I considered the recruitment side myself) but yes, I can't help agreeing that the structure as a whole is not one of support to employees. Like it's grand for low hanging fruit stuff, but anything that's out of their comfort zone... gonna be a lot of unanswered emails/phone calls.

Some companies are worse than others though. I worked briefly in a place that was shockingly biased towards management and the business, yet the facade was just SO friendly and approachable. Where I am now isn't as bad but they're still reluctant to provide support for the trickier stuff, despite the super dooper nice appearance.

Strumms

At the end of the day HR and managers are not meant to be buddies... HR management and line management / operations managers often I’ve seen on smoke breaks together, coffee / tea breaks together... not exactly an example of impartiality....

If I was hr the only social contacts at work I’d be having would be with HR colleagues.... otherwise it’s “hello, hows your day going” pleasantries.

Nexytus

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

What I meant is that if the problem person collaborates by acknowledging they have a problem, then the organisation can ask the person to enter evaluation and therapy. The person would also be asked to avoid coming in contact with the injured party, obviously.

Ucd obviously messed up here.

But if they were doing things right they still have to follow due process. Their own internal disciplinary procedures and the law in general.

If they receive an allegation they must investigate impartially. The alleged culprit has the right to offer rebuttal and defend themselves. If you approached them and told them they needed to be examined by a shrink then you are implying guilt and acting impartially. And so if he made a counter-allegation against Ní Shuilleabháin similarly you can't approach her and suggest there is something medically wrong with her. Either or both would sue you.

If at the end of an investigation you find guilt then the punishment could include re-education or counseling. With the alleged facts in this case I would think a straight dismissal would be in order and don't worry about the airy fairy behavioural syndromes.

Your stuff about the police - that's a separate investigation - if Ní Shuilleabháin made a separate complaint to the Gardaí. Neither impinges the other. The exception to this is where witnesses from the hotel incident which would have included Gardaí as well hotel staff could be called to give evidence in UCD's internal process. Indeed that would have been the crucial evidence that would have sealed guilt and ensured that he could have been safely sacked with no come back on the university.

walshb

This tarnishing HR is wrong..

Many many good and decent and professional people in HR

Why is there next to no balance in society today? It’s either completely one way or completely the other way..

Penn

Errashareesh wrote: »

What are all the pot shots at her ex about?

Dunno. I'd have had no idea about it if not for the people on this thread bringing it up. It's utterly bizarre.

Psychiatric Patrick

walshb wrote: »

This tarnishing HR is wrong..

Many many good and decent and professional people in HR

Why is there next to no balance in society today? It’s either completely one way or completely the other way..

Maybe the people being disparaging about HR simply had bad experiences because of bad HR personnel so for them it 100% bad because they never met the good ones.

I've worked in quite a few places and only in one company have I had dealings with HR and she just a bed person regardless of her position. She proportioned most (if not all) of the guys in the warehouse (not anyone in the office though), called the entire staff into her office one by one following an accident to make threats even the office staff couldn't possibly have seen anything and after it had been confirmed there was only one witness who had made it clear that the accident was the fault of the other warehouse operator. Those are two things - and she was hired because the boss had occasionally been inappropriate in the things he had said - like "working like blacks" or "a woman's place...":rolleyes:

Psychiatric Patrick

Penn wrote: »

Dunno. I'd have had no idea about it if not for the people on this thread bringing it up. It's utterly bizarre.

There was no mention of a ex-boyfriend/ex-husband in the article.


Was he involved somehow?

Tork

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

There was no mention of a ex-boyfriend/ex-husband in the article.


Was he involved somehow?

The edgelords/comedians on this thread are trying to drag him into it.

Tork

HR is probably one of those professions where people only notice them when they mess up. I'm afraid I'm one of the people who is cynical about HR and what they do. They made a mess of a bullying problem in a place where I worked and if anything, made it worse. Anecdotally, they've been little better in friends' workplaces. As has already been said, they're there to protect their employer first and foremost. They're grand if you want forms filled in or for distributing nice posters. Not so good when there's a need to get their hands dirty.

Psychiatric Patrick

Tork wrote: »

The edgelords/comedians on this thread are trying to drag him into it.

I had to google the meaning of edge lords,

What is the "controversial, offensive, taboo, or nihilistic subject" regarding a past relationship?

I know this lady was a Rose of Tralee winner. Is the ex someone shocking or famous?

Tork

Some people would think it's shocking she went out with that verbose beanpole :pac:

Psychiatric Patrick

Tork wrote: »

Some people would think it's shocking she went out with that verbose beanpole :pac:

I was confused by the involvement of someone else who is not mentioned in the story so I looked it up.

Jesus H. Christ!!!

She went out with Turidy? Why? She had won the Rose of Tralee like - how could she have had such low self esteem?

Tork

Each to their own. Anyway, mentions of Tubridy are nothing but a diversion on this thread.

Psychiatric Patrick

Tork wrote: »

Each to their own. Anyway, mentions of Tubridy are nothing but a diversion on this thread.

The less he is mentioned in anything the better.

Psychiatric Patrick

I'm curious to know if her then boyfriend/husband now knew what was going on.

I've been in situations before where there is very little practical help I could give a friend and could only be a shoulder to cry on.

If I was Ni Shuilleabhain's friend I would want to be her shadow so the guy couldn't get near her but that is yet another intrusion on her like that doesn't solve it.

More than that I would want to stalk the stalker. Give him a taste of his own medicine. But would doing that escalate it all to something worse.

Frustrating to just be thinking about it so can't even imagine how it felt for this couple.

Mad_maxx

feel sorry for her , she always comes across very well on tv and radio

guy sounds like a right creep

Psychiatric Patrick

Mad_maxx wrote: »

feel sorry for her , she always comes across very well on tv and radio

guy sounds like a right creep

Bit more than a creep

The frantic state she describes he used to be at her office and following her across the country - you wouldn't know what he was capable of - - could be dangerous to be honest.

IHaveTheFlag

Penn wrote: »

Dunno. I'd have had no idea about it if not for the people on this thread bringing it up. It's utterly bizarre.

I think a lot of boards posters have a latent attraction to Ryan Tubridy. Aoibheann dating him was her living out their fantasy.

Psychiatric Patrick

IHaveTheFlag wrote: »

I think a lot of boards posters have a latent attraction to Ryan Tubridy. Aoibheann dating him was her living out their fantasy.

I got sick in my mouth reading that.

Errashareesh

Tis ironic seeing all these disparaging comments about Ryan Tubridy from people also saying "harassment is bad". No, not the same thing but it does put me in mind of the "Be kind" bandwagon being jumped on by people who can be anything but!

Nexytus wrote: »

Ucd obviously messed up here.

But if they were doing things right they still have to follow due process. Their own internal disciplinary procedures and the law in general.

If they receive an allegation they must investigate impartially. The alleged culprit has the right to offer rebuttal and defend themselves. If you approached them and told them they needed to be examined by a shrink then you are implying guilt and acting impartially. And so if he made a counter-allegation against Ní Shuilleabháin similarly you can't approach her and suggest there is something medically wrong with her. Either or both would sue you.

If at the end of an investigation you find guilt then the punishment could include re-education or counseling. With the alleged facts in this case I would think a straight dismissal would be in order and don't worry about the airy fairy behavioural syndromes.

Your stuff about the police - that's a separate investigation - if Ní Shuilleabháin made a separate complaint to the Gardaí. Neither impinges the other. The exception to this is where witnesses from the hotel incident which would have included Gardaí as well hotel staff could be called to give evidence in UCD's internal process. Indeed that would have been the crucial evidence that would have sealed guilt and ensured that he could have been safely sacked with no come back on the university.

This is a big part of it too which is more difficult to accept. Easier to say it was all just incompetence. However at the same time, I don't see the structure of HR as employee friendly for serious matters, nor do I see any level of forthcoming from them as individuals when the chips are down.

Psychiatric Patrick

Errashareesh wrote: »

Tis ironic seeing all these disparaging comments about Ryan Tubridy from people also saying "harassment is bad". No, not the same thing but it does put me in mind of the "Be kind" bandwagon being jumped on by people who can be anything but!

Not remotely the same unless people are sending such messages to Tubridy himself

IHaveTheFlag

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

I got sick in my mouth reading that.

Admit it, deep down you love that lanky sex machine

OscarMIlde

walshb wrote: »

This tarnishing HR is wrong..

Many many good and decent and professional people in HR

Why is there next to no balance in society today? It’s either completely one way or completely the other way..

So sayeth someone who's never dealt with UCD HR. Even trivial matters like form filling seems beyond some of them.

BattleCorp

Errashareesh wrote: »

What are all the pot shots at her ex about?

Begrudgery. It's the nation's favourite past-time. Us Irish hate to see anyone being successful.

I don't think Tubbs is particularly entertaining but more power to him if he is able to make a siccessful career out of it. And more power to him being able to get jiggy with a good looking bird like Ni Shuilleabhain.

irishblessing

Typical. Serious and important thread about a woman's harassment experience turns into a discussion about an ex-boyfriends career and personal life.

IAMAMORON

BattleCorp wrote: »

Begrudgery. It's the nation's favourite past-time. Us Irish hate to see anyone being successful.

I don't think Tubbs is particularly entertaining but more power to him if he is able to make a siccessful career out of it. And more power to him being able to get jiggy with a good looking bird like Ni Shuilleabhain.

I reckon he is a nice guy, but too much of his career is contrived. He has almost fallen into everything he has achieved. I wish we really really heard about what he thinks or feels, I think we do a little, but I have no notion of his soul or what moves him?

You always felt there were things which Gay or Gerry were passionate or dispassionate about, but I have no idea who Ryan Tubridy really is? Which is a shame because when you look at how he has struggled with his personal life he must have much to convey. I just would wish he wore his heart on his sleeve a little bit more, he seems over focused on the middle ground and not upsetting the applecart. I would like to see him curse and swear a little more ( not all the time of course ), but he needs to unwind a little and show the country what really floats his boat, then we all might get to appreciate him a little more.

He is not a politician, he is a media personality.

mikhail

irishblessing wrote: »

Typical. Serious and important thread about a woman's harassment experience turns into a discussion about an ex-boyfriends career and personal life.

We're 23 pages into a story that's not evolving (no further new articles). All the sensible posters have said their piece ages ago and you're left with those weirdly invested in the subject one way or the other.

Psychiatric Patrick

IHaveTheFlag wrote: »

Admit it, deep down you love that lanky sex machine

I can't even joke about it. He is stain on the nation.

And as others have said, this thread s not about him.

Tork

So why keep going on about him?

Psychiatric Patrick

Tork wrote: »

So why keep going on about him?

I'm not "going on"

IAMAMORON

mikhail wrote: »

We're 23 pages into a story that's not evolving (no further new articles). All the sensible posters have said their piece ages ago and you're left with those weirdly invested in the subject one way or the other.

Wow, a post complaining about the lack of flammability of an article concerning a media correspondent... oh dear.

Did the cake not rise to your expectations on this one?

Unflattered by the conservative Irish response, apart from the " sensible" posters?

Do you like catching many hot potatoes yourself?

Tork

Does anybody think this story will lead to changes in how this issue is dealt with? This particular story was more "out there" because of the way Hans-Benjamin Braun behaved. There were witnesses and the gardai got involved. It helped that Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin was reasonably well known and that she was a bit older and worldly. Maybe these stood to her. I shudder to think about what an undergraduate or someoneone in their early 20s would do if they were being harassed. Would it be fair to say that for universities, their lecturers are more important than the students? Most people are gone through ther system in a few short years but these lecturers are sources of funding, bragging rights etc.

Errashareesh

Think mikhail is referring to the pointless Tubridy mentions and weird stuff like "he's a stain on the nation" (bizarre - and I don't even like him as a broadcaster, plus he has a pro FF bias) and they're not wrong.

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

And as others have said, this thread s not about him.

Exactly.

IAMAMORON

Tork wrote: »

Does anybody think this story will lead to changes in how this issue is dealt with? This particular story was more "out there" because of the way Hans-Benjamin Braun behaved. There were witnesses and the gardai got involved. It helped that Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin was reasonably well known and that she was a bit older and worldly. Maybe these stood to her. I shudder to think about what an undergraduate or someoneone in their early 20s would do if they were being harassed. Would it be fair to say that for universities, their lecturers are more important than the students? Most people are gone through ther system in a few short years but these lecturers are sources of funding, bragging rights etc.

I doubt it and to be frank if she had not got the Gards involved god knows where she would be now.

To me it highlights that everyone is susceptible to bullying in the work place, it happens everywhere. Reading between the lines here Mr Braun developed a very uncomfortable obssesion with Ní Shúilleabháin and it appears that apart from sending a letter to Braun UCD did phuck all really. Although, they may not have been in a position to do much else? UCD ( or any company or institution ) cannot be responsible for the actions of employees of campus or in their own spare time. Hence their hands appear tied over the incident in Cork, I mean technically what he was doing was crazy, but possibly not illegal? I mean the Gards knew what was happening at this time by all accounts, but technically she only knew the guy a few weeks ( my understanding is that this happened very early on), this is difficult to prove, or legally retaliate against, as there is no persistent evidence of harassment at that point. There is nothing illegal about hanging around a hotel or enquiring about a guest. So in fairness the Gards in Cork were very good to her, all things considered.

But it just highlights how difficult it is for victims.

If someone is on your case and harassing you, start writing shít down. Get your dates together and also begin to actively let your harasser know you are doing this, they need to know that their behaviour is unacceptable. It is a classic bully victim scenario, if you do not stand up for yourself the bully will walk all over you. Whilst you should expect to receive assistance from your work HR I would be applying Murphy's Law and expecting the worst. Most HR professionals are comfortable with a tidy desk and a clean bill of paperwork. The last thing they need to be dealing with is a serious harassment issue. That is the sad reality of what happens, you are quite likely to be met with a smile and a phone number to some VHI counselling service, it is very unlikely you will be advised to contact the cops.

Psychiatric Patrick

Errashareesh wrote: »

Think mikhail is referring to the pointless Tubridy mentions and weird stuff like "he's a stain on the nation" (bizarre - and I don't even like him as a broadcaster, plus he has a pro FF bias) and they're not wrong.

Exactly.

Ex was being mentioned. I asked his relevance to the story hen looked it up to see what the relevance. I was surprised it was Tudridy.

Someone else made a post. I responded. I moved on.

Others, including yourself, have not moved on.

walshb

Tork wrote: »

Does anybody think this story will lead to changes in how this issue is dealt with?

Yes. Probably will lead to change. But let’s hope it is balanced, healthy, constructive and common sense change; not the usual complete reversal and OTT change that happens nowadays.

We don’t want it going down the route of people being afraid to say “hello, you look very well today” being HR’d out of the place!!!

Psychiatric Patrick

walshb wrote: »

Yes. Probably will lead to change. But let’s hope it is balanced, healthy, constructive and common sense change; not the usual complete reversal and OTT change that happens nowadays.

We don’t want it going down the route of people being afraid to say “hello, you look very well today” being HR’d out of the place!!!

The world has a lot since my factory/warehouse days.

The things we would say as signs of affection or in jest would cause people's heads to explode these days.

irishblessing

walshb wrote: »

Yes. Probably will lead to change. But let’s hope it is balanced, healthy, constructive and common sense change; not the usual complete reversal and OTT change that happens nowadays.

We don’t want it going down the route of people being afraid to say “hello, you look very well today” being HR’d out of the place!!!

This is where prevention comes into play. Not just implementing policy in the event of harassment or assault, but UCD needs to get in front of it by providing information- training and awareness about what type of behaviour is acceptable or not and what the law says. And how a strong UCD policy will come down and slap them with if they ignore it. You shouldn't need this but the world wide scope of the metoo movement says otherwise.

irishblessing

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

The world has a lot since my factory/warehouse days.

The things we would say as signs of affection or in jest would cause people's heads to explode these days.

Can you give some specific examples? And what wouldn't be allowed by law today?

Psychiatric Patrick

irishblessing wrote: »

Can you give some specific examples? And what wouldn't be allowed by law today?

I don't about the law...

"Can I rest my face on your tits?"

"How's your fanny?"

"Put your cock in his ear..."

IAMAMORON

irishblessing wrote: »

Can you give some specific examples? And what wouldn't be allowed by law today?

It is impossible to be specific. I compliment female colleagues all the time, it is the tone of your compliment that matters. I have been quite rude to some female colleagues, but if they like you it gets laughed off. If they do not like you prepare to be scoffed at and labelled a creep or pervert and quite possibly ostracised by other staff members.

Thin is the line between success and failure at the workplace. My best advice is to play things very safe.