St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

v638sg7k1a92bx

cmssjone wrote: »

I have no vested interest in Kilian’s. I do not work there, nor the LFI, but I do know many of the staff in both schools. I have given you facts regarding numbers that took the LC and the 1st year enrolment numbers this year. You are not able to provide me with any facts, only completely vague unsubstantiated rubbish. Many people etc... The vitriol that you are spouting has nothing to do with this thread. Over 40% of students scored a H1 last year in German which would disavow your assertion that the standard of German “is very poor”.

It doesn’t matter what the DoES think with regards to Kilian’s. In a normal year, students would not be subject to a flawed algorithm and would achieve the results in German that would be expected ie c 40%. Most subject teachers would be delighted with this result.

Why are you so angry with Kilian’s?

Not angry just highlighting the reality. Even if it was 40% that’s still very poor. A lot of very concerning issues with that school.

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Not angry just highlighting the reality. Even if it was 40% that’s still very poor. A lot of very concerning issues with that school.

Thank you for proving my point.

rainbowtrout

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

That doesn't make sense to me, maybe it happens but seems highly unlikely that somebody would choose another language over one that they spoke fluently.

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean people don't do it. If the world only functioned by the limitations of what you understand, we would be quite limited.

rainbowtrout

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Not angry just highlighting the reality. Even if it was 40% that’s still very poor. A lot of very concerning issues with that school.

I would say a lot of teachers here are not in any way familiar with the school except that it has a focus on German and caters to German families or those with connections to Germany.

There is a massive discrepancy between the calculated grades awarded this year and the grades historically achieved by the school year on year.

Those are facts.

Whether you think there are 'concerning issues' in the school or not is of no relevance to this issue.

You clearly have a beef with the school for some unknown reason, and want to drag it into every post when it is completely irrelevant.

killbillvol2

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Not angry just highlighting the reality. Even if it was 40% that’s still very poor. A lot of very concerning issues with that school.

You really have no idea what you're talking about and haven't provided a single fact. Your most common phrase is 'I don't jniw'.

Given that about half of the students only began studying German in first year, 40% H1s is very high. But maths isn't your strong point either.

You clearly have some axe to grind with the school but your inability to argue using any facts suggests to me that you're either a disgruntled parent who was pulled up on some of your moaning or a former student who isn't as bright as you think you are.

amacca

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Not angry just highlighting the reality. Even if it was 40% that’s still very poor. A lot of very concerning issues with that school.

4 in 10 students score a H1 in LC German and you think thats poor.....


That means 4 out of 10 of them got 90% or more in their LC last year when the exam was run.......thats before you go totting up H2s and H3s (Respectable marks for a lot of students)

Sounds good to me.....that percentage receiving H1s would be way above an average leaving cert group or the national average I would have thought

What would you expect for the standard of German to not be poor one wonders?.......presumably the students are not all genuises either.



I would have thought if they had 40% getting a H1 last year and the departments "algorithm" reduced that drastically they would have a right to fight hard

I still can help but wondering what percentage you think should be getting H1s and if perhaps your expectations are not highly unrealistic

ReadySteadyGo

From The Duke on the AAM thread

The national position for German was as follows:
6,772 sitting
5.7% get H1s historically
Teachers' Assessment (nationally) 13.9%
Standardised result (nationally) 9.0%

If St Killians expected 50% H1s, I interpret that as the Teachers' Assessment.
So they must have got a very significant adjustment from the Junior Cycle Prediction (to end up at 14%)

Wombatman

"Anger mounts at leading Dublin grind school over calculated grades"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/anger-mounts-at-leading-dublin-grind-school-over-calculated-grades-1.4351809?mode=amp

v638sg7k1a92bx

cmssjone wrote: »

Thank you for proving my point.

Tbh and with all due respect, you haven’t really made a point but just rushed to defend the school from any perceived criticism. You say you’ve no connection but seem a bit too familiar with the (unverifiable) student numbers which you apparently got from “friends” who work in the school.

rainbowtrout

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Tbh and with all due respect, you haven’t really made a point but just rushed to defend the school from any perceived criticism. You say you’ve no connection but seem a bit too familiar with the (unverifiable) student numbers which you apparently got from “friends” who work in the school.

Now if you click on the link below you'll see another link that says Post Primary Fee Paying Schools. Click on it.

A spreadsheet will open. Have a look down through the spreadsheet and you will see that student enrolment in St Killian's in 2019 was 403. The figure quoted on here was 390. Not far off by any means.

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Data-on-Individual-Schools/Data-on-Individual-Schools.html


Are Department of Education statistics verifiable enough for you, or is this all just a conspiracy theory?

v638sg7k1a92bx

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Now if you click on the link below you'll see another link that says Post Primary Fee Paying Schools. Click on it.

A spreadsheet will open. Have a look down through the spreadsheet and you will see that student enrolment in St Killian's in 2019 was 403. The figure quoted on here was 390. Not far off by any means.

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Data-on-Individual-Schools/Data-on-Individual-Schools.html


Are Department of Education statistics verifiable enough for you, or is this all just a conspiracy theory?

I’m not disputing that.

rainbowtrout

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I’m not disputing that.

Yes you are. You described the student numbers as unverifiable.

v638sg7k1a92bx

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes you are. You described the student numbers as unverifiable.

What I would like to know is how many students in Kilians sat the LC this year and how many of those sat the higher level German paper?

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Tbh and with all due respect, you haven’t really made a point but just rushed to defend the school from any perceived criticism. You say you’ve no connection but seem a bit too familiar with the (unverifiable) student numbers which you apparently got from “friends” who work in the school.

I have provided numbers of students who took the LC last year and also the intake of 1st years this year. According to one of your previous posts, you know some of the teachers in Kilian’s. My stats are easily verifiable. Ask them, that’s what I did.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Kilians LC results remind me of those face creams ads - “70% of our respondents said they noticed an improvement in their skin”

Likewise with the LC German results - 41% of our students received a H1 in German. 41% of 27 students is not something to be trying to cover yourself in glory especially if you are the only German school in Ireland that receives a wedge of cash from German taxpayer.

I just find it utterly bizarre that a principal would go on record with the national broadcaster complaining about a tiny sample of students and bring this type of attention into the school which will only highlight their own shortcomings rather than the shortcomings of the grading system.

Seems to me that that there are probably other reasons why the principal felt compelled to make that statement and I’d hazard a guess it’s because of the growing frustration among parents and other stakeholders about the low standard of German in the only German speaking school in the country.

If German taxpayers are funding this school, I think they have legitimate concerns around how this money is being used if it is yielding such poor academic results particularly if the ethos of the school is primarily to promote German.

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

What I would like to know is how many students in Kilians sat the LC this year and how many of those sat the higher level German paper?

Check with the teachers you “know” in Kilian’s.

bobbyy gee

I got an A honors in german and it's my worse subject

v638sg7k1a92bx

cmssjone wrote: »

I have provided numbers of students who took the LC last year and also the intake of 1st years this year. According to one of your previous posts, you know some of the teachers in Kilian’s. My stats are easily verifiable. Ask them, that’s what I did.

Ask who exactly?

v638sg7k1a92bx

cmssjone wrote: »

Check with the teachers you “know” in Kilian’s.

I prefer to get hard data rather than second hand information.

But even if we take your figure of 42 (I think) is that the total number of students who sat the LC in 6th year? 41% is not that impressive for a Deutsche Schule. Not even 50%...

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

The Kilians LC results remind me of those face creams ads - “70% of our respondents said they noticed an improvement in their skin”

Likewise with the LC German results - 41% of our students received a H1 in German. 41% of 27 students is not something to be trying to cover yourself in glory especially if you are the only German school in Ireland that receives a wedge of cash from German taxpayer.

I just find it utterly bizarre that a principal would go on record with the national broadcaster complaining about a tiny sample of students and bring this type of attention into the school which will only highlight their own shortcomings rather than the shortcomings of the grading system.

Seems to me that that there are probably other reasons why the principal felt compelled to make that statement and I’d hazard a guess it’s because of the growing frustration among parents and other stakeholders about the low standard of German in the only German speaking school in the country.

If German taxpayers are funding this school, I think they have legitimate concerns around how this money is being used if it is yielding such poor academic results particularly if the ethos of the school is primarily to promote German.

What has this got to do with the fact that they were unfairly treated with the algorithm used to calculate grades? The principal felt compelled to make that statement because the German results were not reflective of the students’ ability. More principals will be doing the same. It has already started with the Institute.

Go and educate yourself in the area of statistics and maybe you can contribute in a meaningful way to this thread instead of casting forth unsubstantiated nonsense. It’s getting to the stage where you are embarrassing yourself now.

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Ask who exactly?

One of the teachers you know. I’m sure they’d remember how many students were in 6th year last year. It isn’t rocket science!

v638sg7k1a92bx

cmssjone wrote: »

What has this got to do with the fact that they were unfairly treated with the algorithm used to calculate grades? The principal felt compelled to make that statement because the German results were not reflective of the students’ ability. More principals will be doing the same. It has already started with the Institute.

Go and educate yourself in the area of statistics and maybe you can contribute in a meaningful way to this thread instead of casting forth unsubstantiated nonsense. It’s getting to the stage where you are embarrassing yourself now.

But that’s the issue, was this school unfairly treated or is it just confirming what many have been saying for years. When you look at the past performance and you exclude the small number of high results Kilians case is different in that they are crying foul on the basis of one subject...

killbillvol2

bobbyy gee wrote: »

I got an A honors in german and it's my worse subject

I'd say your English is worse in fairness.

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I prefer to get hard data rather than second hand information.

But even if we take your figure of 42 (I think) is that the total number of students who sat the LC in 6th year? 41% is not that impressive for a Deutsche Schule. Not even 50%...

It doesn’t matter if it’s 41%, 50% or 100%. The school’s students have been unfairly treated by a flawed statistical model. Honestly, it’s like talking to a brick wall...

amacca

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Likewise with the LC German results - 41% of our students received a H1 in German. 41% of 27 students is not something to be trying to cover yourself in glory especially if you are the only German school in Ireland that receives a wedge of cash from German taxpayer.

Hmmmm.....if the national average for H1s was 5.7% as posted previously and this place got 40% H1s then thats pretty good going in my book tbh

They seemed to be far outperforming the national average.......and thats just for H1s.....the very top grade.....what percentage got H2s and H3s I wonder? .....presumably the students are mixed ability? Even if theres a small class 40% H1s is a v.good return rate

What would satisfy you?

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Seems to me that that there are probably other reasons:o why the principal felt compelled to make that statement

Given the disparity between the results this year compared to last year Id think he had no choice but to do it

What would you do?

killbillvol2

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

But that’s the issue, was this school unfairly treated or is it just confirming what many have been saying for years. When you look at the past performance and you exclude the small number of high results Kilians case is different in that they are crying foul on the basis of one subject...

There's really no point in placing facts in front of you as you don't seem to grasp them.

What exactly is your personal issue with the school?

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

But that’s the issue, was this school unfairly treated or is it just confirming what many have been saying for years. When you look at the past performance and you exclude the small number of high results Kilians case is different in that they are crying foul on the basis of one subject...

What is your empirical basis for this?

ReadySteadyGo

Are you upset that the school doesn't fair better in German LC results? or in General LC results? or are you upset about its funding model? or governance? or something else?

It seems you are mostly complaining about their results, and implying they don't do very well.

Have a look at my three posts around here, where I alread replied to your post saying general results were not great.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114559280&postcount=17

and my post a few posts back about the german results.

They have over last few years had
6 times more students that get 600+ points compared to national average
3 time more students that get 500+ compared to national average
They have got 7x more H1s in german compared to the national average.


These are amazing results by any standard. 10% of a class, even a small class, getting 600+ is really good.

It is hard to get per school results for other schools to compare, as the data is not public (AFAIK).

The league tables based on percent of students that go to college, do not really speak to high performance.

I am sure no school is perfect. I imagine a full german school in germany would score higher on our leaving cert. But so what? The school gets very good results. The results this year in German are suprisingly low. The way the algorithm is described to work fully explains why this would have happened.

ReadySteadyGo

It may well be the case that there are german familes that are unhappy with the level of german in the school, they are entitled to their opinion. They may even be correct. Maybe start a thread on that exact topic if that is your concern?

I imagine, that Leaving Certificate H1 is not going to be anywhere near the same standard as the top mark in German in the german state exams/schools.

I imagine it is hard to replicate the same level of german that you would get taught in Germany, when you and your teachers, and your neighbours live in Ireland.

But again so what?

v638sg7k1a92bx

cmssjone wrote: »

It doesn’t matter if it’s 41%, 50% or 100%. The school’s students have been unfairly treated by a flawed statistical model. Honestly, it’s like talking to a brick wall...

I’m sorry but that is such a childish statement. “Unfair” that’s what a 4 yo child says. Where is this unfairness, same rules applied to everyone but some people have more of a platform than others to express their dismay.

Time for some people to check their privilege.

Spanish Eyes

Good to see privilege is standardised.

But at the same time have heard nada from places like Blackrock, Clongowes and the likes. Not that I care much either.

Overall it seems to have worked well, but we shall see tomorrow I suppose with CAO offers.

The more such privileged places complain the more the rest of us ignore it all IMV.

Quantum Erasure

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I’m sorry but that is such a childish statement. “Unfair” that’s what a 4 yo child says. Where is this unfairness,

its been explained to you multiple times already....

Time for some people to check their privilege.

good man

Quantum Erasure

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Good to see privilege is standardised.

But at the same time have heard nada from places like Blackrock, Clongowes and the likes. Not that I care much either.

Overall it seems to have worked well, but we shall see tomorrow I suppose with CAO offers.

The more such privileged places complain the more the rest of us ignore it all IMV.

So people deserve lower grades than they would have gotten through their own hard work, just because of their background?

Spanish Eyes

Wonder if the Gaelscoilleanna at Secondary Level were standardised too. But honestly life is tough especially these days.

It will all work out, and if folk are enraged, well sit the exam in November and wear your mask on your gap year afterwards. Like when you get the H1 in all subjects you so deserved. Well like the school did anyway.

This year is an outlier, everyone with half a brain knows this and it doesn't reflect the norms. But the private schools need a kick up the eighties anyway to bring them to heel.

Money talks though. That is the issue.

Overall, I don't think there is a problem with non fee paying schools at all. I might be wrong though.

Spanish Eyes

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

So people deserve lower grades than they would have gotten through their own hard work, just because of their background?

Nothing to do with background, it's to do with fees. Standardisation should be the norm anyway.

Spanish Eyes

Just read somewhere that the Gradgrind, sorry Grind school in Leeson Street is having a bit of a strop aswell now.

Just resit in November with no grinds. Honestly it is a nothing to the vast majority of LC students except on here AFAIS, much ado about nothing.

killbillvol2

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Nothing to do with background, it's to do with fees. Standardisation should be the norm anyway.

Standardisation of what?

Quantum Erasure

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Nothing to do with background, it's to do with fees. Standardisation should be the norm anyway.

Ok so, people deserve lower grades than they would have gotten through their own hard work, just because their parents can afford to send them to better schools, and do?

Standardisation is the norm, normally. These schools get better results because the students earn them

cmssjone

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I’m sorry but that is such a childish statement. “Unfair” that’s what a 4 yo child says. Where is this unfairness, same rules applied to everyone but some people have more of a platform than others to express their dismay.

Time for some people to check their privilege.

I don’t have the time, nor the crayons to explain this to you.

Spanish Eyes

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Standardisation of what?

Results based on every school, not just the privileged ones who are going total right now.

Fees Fees Fees for results. lol.

killbillvol2

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Results based on every school, not just the privileged ones who are going total right now.

Fees Fees Fees for results. lol.

What the **** are you talking about?

Spanish Eyes

Will the class of 2021 who go through the trauma of the recall for the exam be any better than this result? I doubt it.

So much talk about the teacher's pet and all that. Honestly this country has to grow the feck up now. The LC is a joke and is not representative of a student's work throughout the year. I really hope that will change now.

Spanish Eyes

killbillvol2 wrote: »

What the **** are you talking about?

Just look at those schools that are complaining, the Leeson Street set up, the grind schools,the German school and so on. You'd have to be a moron not to realise that they know their fees might be curtailed going forward.

I hope it never returns. It is just a privileged thing for the students, and that was reflected in the results from the non privileged too. Good Oh.

killbillvol2

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just look at those schools that are complaining, the Leeson Street set up, the grind schools,the German school and so on.

The German school are complaining because Germans and children of Germans were marked down (but don't bother actually reading the thread).

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You'd have to be a moron

Indeed.

Spanish Eyes

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The German school are complaining because Germans and children of Germans were marked down (but don't bother actually reading the thread).



Indeed.

Any comment on Gealscoilleanna for LC. They may have been standardised aswell as the German speaking kids.

But you sound so bitter. Education is for everyone, Deis, Middle Ground and Private.

It is when the private and the grind schools start moaning you know immediately it is fee related for the future.

Quantum Erasure

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Results based on every school, not just the privileged ones who are going total right now.

Fees Fees Fees for results. lol.

So every school gets a set percentage of H1s H2s etc?

I'm sure that will motivate students to do their best.... or nevermind students, it'll surely motivate the teachers

Spanish Eyes

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

So every school gets a set percentage of H1s H2s etc?

I'm sure that will motivate students to do their best.... or nevermind students, it'll surely motivate the teachers

Relax will ya.

Everyone knows that linguistic schools like Killians would expect top grades in German, but who knows what the students are like or their background. Anyway, the teachers would have graded them no? Guess what, they would never get a D1 or whatever the lowest is.

Moving on, there are Gaelscoilleanna all over with LC students studying all subjects as Gaeilge, be interesting to see in fairness if they were standardised in the Irish language segment. The majority are NOT fee paying just to mention.

Anyone want to comment?

Spanish Eyes

Anyway, overall most students will get their CAO course tomorrow, or the next one on their list.

That's good isn't it? It is not all about the doctors and the vets and so on, sure most of them fail the HPAT anyway no matter their result.

I think this is a great experiment. And should continue.

Quantum Erasure

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Everyone knows that linguistic schools like Killians would expect top grades in German, but who knows what the students are like or their background. Anyway, the teachers would have graded them no? Guess what, they would never get a D1 or whatever the lowest is.

I don't know what your point is, the teachers graded them according to what they would have achieved, the 'algorithm' saw the average was way out of sync with the rest of the country, and adjusted accordingly, not taking into account the historical results from that school, and dragging students a grade or two down from what they would have gotten, had they sat the exam

Moving on, there are Gaelscoilleanna all over with LC students studying all subjects as Gaeilge, be interesting to see in fairness if they were standardised in the Irish language segment. The majority are NOT fee paying just to mention.

Anyone want to comment?

I'm surprised we haven't heard from them, perhaps the fact they were Gaelscoils was factored into the algorithm, and they got the results they deserved, more or less

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding 'fee paying' schools, 'doctors and vets and so on'... let it go.

Treppen

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Relax will ya.

Everyone knows that linguistic schools like Killians would expect top grades in German, but who knows what the students are like or their background. Anyway, the teachers would have graded them no? Guess what, they would never get a D1 or whatever the lowest is.

Moving on, there are Gaelscoilleanna all over with LC students studying all subjects as Gaeilge, be interesting to see in fairness if they were standardised in the Irish language segment. The majority are NOT fee paying just to mention.

Anyone want to comment?

Yes I'll comment.

Gaelscoileanna are at an advantage because Irish was included in the composite mark for Junior Cert. This goes towards moderating the Leaving Cert grade.