To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

Ashbourne hoop

Deleted User wrote: »

But wouldn't you rather watch the match without a mask?

Here's a book written by Dr Vernon Coleman MB ChB DSc entitled 'Proof That Face Masks Do More Harm Than Good':

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/pdfupdatedmaskbook.pdf

The book is full of references to scientific studies and papers.

Of course I would, but it's not a huge hardship, I wear a mask for large parts of the working day.

And Vernon Coleman ? Really ?

Graham

Graham wrote: »

I've debated the moon being made of cream cheese.

What's the purpose of this thread? Is it just a thread for people to praise masks, or is to debate masks?

Seanergy

Seanergy wrote: »

Whenever I see theatres and concert halls being cited as examples, all I see are pubs and nightclubs. Very few in Ireland are willing to talk about the elephant in the room.

The giveaway is that generally, the theatre crowd and concert hall goers are educated or at least open to being educated.

Do you mean people who don't think masks are effective are uneducated? Do you think social distancing isn't a problem for theatres and concert halls?

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

These are all from his book:
"In 2015, the British Medical Journal published a paper entitled, A Cluster Randomised Trial of Cloth Masks Compared with Medical Masks in Healthcare Workers.

The study was into the use of cloth masks as PPE by health care workers.
It concluded with the effectiveness of medical masks (which includes blue surgical masks) over cloth masks as PPE.

The health care workers were wearing a single cloth mask on an entire shift in a hospital. In a health care setting the workers would be more likely to encounter infected patients.
"We should be cautious about cloth mask use in healthcare settings, particularly high-risk situations such as emergency departments, intensive care, paediatric or respiratory wards."

The study is not really applicable to the use of masks by the general public primarily on as 'barriers' to contain their own droplets when on buses, shops etc.

Ashbourne hoop

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

Of course I would, but it's not a huge hardship, I wear a mask for large parts of the working day.

And Vernon Coleman ? Really ?

I know Wiki says he's a conspiracy theorist, but his book is full of quotes from and references to scientific studies and papers.

xhomelezz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know Wiki says he's a conspiracy theorist, but his book is full of quotes from and references to scientific studies and papers.

That's what they always do cherry pick out of everywhere, twist basically anything they want and voilà there is credible Dr. Coleman and bulletproof theory..

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

"Research conducted by four French doctors in 2018 and reported in Rev Mal Respir, was designed to evaluate the effect of wearing a surgical mask during a six minute walking test. The authors of the study were E. Person, C. Lemercier, A. Royer and G. Reychler. (The six minute walking test is regularly used in pulmonology.) For this research, 44 health subjects were used. Each individual performed two six minute walking tests – one with a mask and one without a mask. The researchers found that dyspnoea variation was significantly higher with a surgical mask, and concluded that the difference was clinically relevant.
The conclusion was that ‘wearing a surgical mask modifies significantly and clinically dyspnoea.’"

Refuted by this study:
https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1513/AnnalsATS.202009-1088RL

Surgical or N95-type face masks can be used during the 6-MWT, especially among those recovering from COVID-19, and the results from the meters walked, as well as other variables such as SpO2, HR, and degree of dyspnea, are similar to those obtained without using a face mask

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you mean people who don't think masks are effective are uneducated? Do you think social distancing isn't a problem for theatres and concert halls?

No need to think about it.

Do you think hand washing isn't a problem for pubs and nightclubs?

patnor1011

Seanergy wrote: »

Just open your brain.

So are you advocating for F2/95 masks for all in Ireland, or do they simply make no difference?

If you do not understand read it again.
In this case we can actually conclude that too much of mask use leads to more covid infections which is quite simple really.
People who must wear mask for the most of the day tend to adjust and fiddle with them pretty much nonstop which may introduce virus they may pick up on their hands right close up their nose and mouth.

odyssey06

odyssey06 wrote: »

Refuted by this study:
https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1513/AnnalsATS.202009-1088RL

Surgical or N95-type face masks can be used during the 6-MWT, especially among those recovering from COVID-19, and the results from the meters walked, as well as other variables such as SpO2, HR, and degree of dyspnea, are similar to those obtained without using a face mask

Thanks for that. The main reason I linked to the book was so it could be debated and compared with other studies such as the one above.

I'm rereading Dr Coleman's book and it's amazing how many references to scientific studies and papers there are in it.

I didn't know about this, for example:

"In June 2020, researchers suggested that the oxygen reduction and carbon dioxide build up
(hypercapnia) might put a considerable strain on the heart, lungs, kidneys and immune system. This risk has not been disproven. The paper was written by B. Chandrasekaran, S. Fernandes and entitled, Exercise with facemask: are we handling a devil’s sword – a physiological hypothesis."

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for that. The main reason I linked to the book was so it could be debated and compared with other studies such as the one above.

I'm rereading Dr Coleman's book and it's amazing how many references to scientific studies and papers there are in it.

I didn't know about this, for example:

"In June 2020, researchers suggested that the oxygen reduction and carbon dioxide build up
(hypercapnia) might put a considerable strain on the heart, lungs, kidneys and immune system. This risk has not been disproven. The paper was written by B. Chandrasekaran, S. Fernandes and entitled, Exercise with facemask: are we handling a devil’s sword – a physiological hypothesis."

Well first off I think "might put" and "This risk has not been disproven" stated in a study seems like a big red flag to me.

Recent randomised study in Denmark for example, showed a slightly lower infection rate for those with masks than without. This could indicate a weak direct protective effect, or a placebo type effect where the wearing of masks made the wearer more likely to take precautions. It certainly did not show any danger to the mask wearing group.

Seanergy

Berlin goes Compulsory FFP2 masks. LINK

"Normal medical masks (usually blue and white in colour) will no longer be permitted in many public spaces.

Anyone who uses the city’s U-Bahn, S-Bahn or buses will also now have to wear an FFP2 mask. The rule also applies in train stations and at airports. FFP2 masks will also have to be worn in hospitals, libraries, museums and cultural centres in general.

The stringent new mask requirement applies to supermarkets, as well as any other shops that may be able to open in April due to a ramped up testing regime."

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the purpose of this thread? Is it just a thread for people to praise masks, or is to debate masks?

My point was somebody debating something is proof of nothing.

Away With The Fairies

patnor1011 wrote: »

If you do not understand read it again.
In this case we can actually conclude that too much of mask use leads to more covid infections which is quite simple really.
People who must wear mask for the most of the day tend to adjust and fiddle with them pretty much nonstop which may introduce virus they may pick up on their hands right close up their nose and mouth.

Fiddling with masks was an excuse used last year not to have the public wearing masks. At a time they wanted to keep masks for healthcare workers. Can we move on into 2021?

Picking up covid on your finger, you would want to shove your finger into your nose or mouth to transfer covid from your finger to yourself. And I never see that from mask wearers.

And if you're so worried about people catching covid like that, how about we wear masks, contain our own germs and keep surfaces clean, to prevent people from picking up covid they can pick up on their finger?

Graham

Graham wrote: »

My point was somebody debating something is proof of nothing.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

Seanergy

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Fiddling with masks was an excuse used last year not to have the public wearing masks. At a time they wanted to keep masks for healthcare workers. Can we move on into 2021?

The fiddling with masks excuse orginated and is documented in the EAG meetings and was referring to HCW's, not the public, originally.

IPC needed to stop routine HCW's from draining the very limited mask stock.

Out of curiosity, why do countries, and states in the US, with no masks, or where masks are voluntary, have far fewer deaths and case numbers than countries with extremely strict mask laws such as Spain, Peru, Italy, France et al? People say there are other factors to consider, but could it be that they just don't work? I read a post about Berlin doubling down on masks. They've been wearing masks there for around a year and it hasn't worked. Why doesn't someone in Germany look to the real world evidence of those countries and states with no masks and say "why don't we try that since deaths and case numbers are far fewer in those places?"?

odyssey06

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why do countries, and states in the US, with no masks, or where masks are voluntary, have far fewer deaths and case numbers than countries with extremely strict mask laws such as Spain, Peru, Italy, France et al? People say there are other factors to consider, but could it be that they just don't work? I read a post about Berlin doubling down on masks. They've been wearing masks there for around a year and it hasn't worked. Why doesn't someone in Germany look to the real world evidence of those countries and states with no masks and say "why don't we try that since deaths and case numbers are far fewer in those places?"?

Do they?
I havent seen the data on that.
And how does it explain asian countries with longer history of masks and lower covid rates.

I think you will find a lot of the places without strict mask laws have far lower population densities and/or travel.

Masks work as they reduce the risk to people in specific settings.
There are new more contagious variants around now hence the doubling down.
But if people are ignoring other restrictions you are going to have high case counts.
At least with masks those following the restrictions can protect themselves more effectively in community settings.

odyssey06

odyssey06 wrote: »

Do they?
I havent seen the data on that.
And how does it explain asian countries with longer history of masks and lower covid rates.

I think you will find a lot of the places without strict mask laws have far lower population densities and/or travel.

Masks work as they reduce the risk to people in specific settings.
There are new more contagious variants around now hence the doubling down.
But if people are ignoring other restrictions you are going to have high case counts.
At least with masks those following the restrictions can protect themselves more effectively in community settings.

I was thinking of Florida vs California and Sweden vs most European countries.

On the variants hysteria being pushed by scientists and the media in the West (notice how it's never scientists and doctors outside of the West) the highly respected Dr Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford University says they are over-hyped:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1375200672182853632

He also says masks are pointless.

I wonder why someone in Germany doesn't call Dr Jay Bhattacharya in the US or Dr Anders Tegnell in Sweden to ask them why they believe masks to be pointless.

Southeast Asia is an interesting one. Could it be that there was prior immunity in those countries from SARS?

runawaybishop

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking of Florida vs California and Sweden vs most European countries.

On the variants hysteria being pushed by scientists and the media in the West (notice how it's never scientists and doctors outside of the West) the highly respected Dr Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford University says they are over-hyped:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1375200672182853632

He also says masks are pointless.

I wonder why someone in Germany doesn't call Dr Jay Bhattacharya in the US or Dr Anders Tegnell in Sweden to ask them why they believe masks to be pointless.

Southeast Asia is an interesting one. Could it be that there was prior immunity in those countries from SARS?

You are so transparent. Just asking a question are you? Just admit you are anti-mask, its a lot quicker.

The 'the highly respected Dr Jay Bhattacharya' is no such thing, WHO have stated 'that the proposed strategy is dangerous, unethical, and lacks a sound scientific basis'

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking of Florida vs California and Sweden vs most European countries.

On the variants hysteria being pushed by scientists and the media in the West (notice how it's never scientists and doctors outside of the West) the highly respected Dr Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford University says they are over-hyped:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1375200672182853632

He also says masks are pointless.

I wonder why someone in Germany doesn't call Dr Jay Bhattacharya in the US or Dr Anders Tegnell in Sweden to ask them why they believe masks to be pointless.

Southeast Asia is an interesting one. Could it be that there was prior immunity in those countries from SARS?

There's a whole thread about Sweden. Given its low population density and the fact that its neighbours are also low population density and have restrictions I think it is taking something of a free ride in terms of costs of restrictions.
Its cases and deaths are multiples of its neighbours whom in all other circumstances it would be directly compared to.
I don't think they have anything to offer Ireland or other EU countries as an example, and if their strategy was scaled across the Union it would be a disaster.
In the context of this thread, Sweden's Public Health Authority recommended face masks on public transport during rush hour. You would think they have Dr Anders Tegnell phone number.

This is a good article about US states which doesn't support your contention, certainly the factors are much deeper than just masks:
North Dakota and South Dakota are both among the least restrictive states in the country with the higher per capita case rates of COVID-19 in the country.
Vermont and Hawaii, on the other hand, have some of the lowest per capita case rates in the country (2,341 and 1,912 per 100,000, respectively) and among the most restrictive policies.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-california-and-florida-have-similar-covid-19-case-rates-the-answer-is-complicated#Confounders-abound

Fandymo

Deleted User wrote: »

Dr Jay Bhattacharya said in an interview a few months ago that something similar to long covid happens with the flu. He said his son got the flu a few years ago and woke up one day and couldn't walk. He described how the flu has all kinds of side effects, and how it can have cardiac side effects. He and the interviewer, also a doctor, said that "these things happen with viral infections ... and yet we are spinning it as though the world is ending."

The interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_COvdCujaA

They were not saying that covid was the flu, but that the flu and viral infections also have side effects.

Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome I believe it was called before it was re-branded as Long Covid.

xhomelezz

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking of Florida vs California and Sweden vs most European countries.

On the variants hysteria being pushed by scientists and the media in the West (notice how it's never scientists and doctors outside of the West) the highly respected Dr Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford University says they are over-hyped:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1375200672182853632

He also says masks are pointless.

I wonder why someone in Germany doesn't call Dr Jay Bhattacharya in the US or Dr Anders Tegnell in Sweden to ask them why they believe masks to be pointless.

Southeast Asia is an interesting one. Could it be that there was prior immunity in those countries from SARS?

Whats that variants hysteria?

xhomelezz

These are up for sale, unfortunately app still not available. Thinking about giving it a go

https://www.airpophealth.com/eu/airpop-active-smart-black-yellow

moonage

runawaybishop wrote: »

You are so transparent. Just asking a question are you? Just admit you are anti-mask, its a lot quicker.

Being anti-mask is a perfectly valid position to have. Around here it's a term of abuse.

This thread should be renamed The Mask Appreciation Thread.

xhomelezz

moonage wrote: »

Being anti-mask is a perfectly valid position to have. Around here it's a term of abuse.

This thread should be renamed The Mask Appreciation Thread.

Just show up with some valid points why masks don't work. If you have none, no need to post this kind of bùllshīt.

Away With The Fairies

moonage wrote: »

Being anti-mask is a perfectly valid position to have. Around here it's a term of abuse.

This thread should be renamed The Mask Appreciation Thread.

So being anti-mask is ok to infect others?

runawaybishop

moonage wrote: »

Being anti-mask is a perfectly valid position to have. Around here it's a term of abuse.

This thread should be renamed The Mask Appreciation Thread.

Being anti-mask isn't the issue, its that some posters pretend they are 'just asking questions'.

xhomelezz

xhomelezz wrote: »

Just show up with some valid points why masks don't work. If you have none, no need to post this kind of bùllshīt.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9426499/Scientists-evidence-toxic-chemicals-face-masks.html

"Professor Michael Braungart, director at the Hamburg Environmental Institute, conducted tests on masks which had caused people to break out in rashes.

'What we are breathing through our mouth and nose is actually hazardous waste,' Professor Braungart said.

These used masks were found to contain formaldehyde and other chemicals.

Formaldehyde is the chemical which gives the 'clean' smell when a new pack of masks is opened. He also found aniline, a known carcinogen.

'We found formaldehyde and even aniline and noticed that unknown artificial fragrances were being applied to cover any unpleasant chemical smells from the mask, he said.

'In the case of the blue-coloured surgical masks, we found cobalt – which can be used as a blue dye.

'All in all, we have a chemical cocktail in front of our nose and mouth that has never been tested for either toxicity or any long-term effects on health,' he said."

Sconsey

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9426499/Scientists-evidence-toxic-chemicals-face-masks.html

"Professor Michael Braungart, director at the Hamburg Environmental Institute, conducted tests on masks which had caused people to break out in rashes.

'What we are breathing through our mouth and nose is actually hazardous waste,' Professor Braungart said.

These used masks were found to contain formaldehyde and other chemicals.

Formaldehyde is the chemical which gives the 'clean' smell when a new pack of masks is opened. He also found aniline, a known carcinogen.

'We found formaldehyde and even aniline and noticed that unknown artificial fragrances were being applied to cover any unpleasant chemical smells from the mask, he said.

'In the case of the blue-coloured surgical masks, we found cobalt – which can be used as a blue dye.

'All in all, we have a chemical cocktail in front of our nose and mouth that has never been tested for either toxicity or any long-term effects on health,' he said."

What has this got to do with masks not working? this is a study that detected various potentailly dangerous chamicals in some masks. No info on what percentage of masks have these chemicals, no info on the levels of chemicals, no info at all other than one study that asks questions. You know if you checked your water filter at home you would find dangerous chemicals, if you eat a tin of beans you find dangerous chemicals. Chemicals are everywhere, what matters is the concentrations and exposure.

This article is weak if you are trying to discredit masks as an effective means of reducing the spread of Covid-19. Try harder.