To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

gozunda

GT89 wrote: »

Sweden has lower Covid than Ireland now and people there are not wearing masks over there. Clearly they are doing a better job than us atm. Masks are either useless or actually causing the spread of covid not stopping it.

Good news is that Sweden is now offering Asylum to all prisoners of conscience who fervently believe the Swedes are right and everyone else is wrong.

No doubt all those standing up against such injustice should get on like a good dose of pickled herrings!

Lycka till!

CalamariFritti

Sconsey wrote: »

All this evidence is not evidence according to a few of the skeptics because the studies have been carried in 'lab conditions'. It seem that for some reason laboratory testing is not realistic and therefore should be ignored. The skeptics will only accept scientific studies carried out in supermarkets, because ....well actually I can't explain why.

No its evidence. Nobody is doubting that. It's evidence that fewer droplets (spit & snot) will come off you.

Which is not the same as being evidence for stopping the spread of coronavirus in Ireland by wearing them in supermarkets.
For that we'd have to have coronaviruses flying around in our supermarkets. For which we have zero evidence.

gozunda

CalamariFritti wrote: »

No its evidence. Nobody is doubting that. It's evidence that fewer droplets (spit & snot) will come off you.

Which is not the same as being evidence for stopping the spread of coronavirus in Ireland by wearing them in supermarkets.
For that we'd have to have coronaviruses flying around in our supermarkets. For which we have zero evidence.

Tbf I'd prefer that 'snot and spit' is not flying around supermarkets atm. In the midst of a pandemic - why in dogs name would anyone have an issue with that?

Video showing aerosol dispersion in a supermarket type setting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZSKoNGTR6Q

From here:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-3d-model-reveals-how-covid-19-can-spread-in-supermarket-11971373

Seanergy

Merry_Hell wrote: »

The first quoted paragraph implies people are putting on masks because they fear the government's response to the virus more than the virus itself. I've heard a few people justify it that way. Is that really a way we want to be governed?

That's a good one, you think people are putting on masks because they fear the governement's delayed response, it has been a shambles in fairness.

3xh

gozunda wrote: »

Tbf I'd prefer that 'snot and spit' is not flying around supermarkets atm. In the midst of a pandemic - why in dogs name would anyone have an issue with that?

Video showing aerosol dispersion in a supermarket type setting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZSKoNGTR6Q

From here:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-3d-model-reveals-how-covid-19-can-spread-in-supermarket-11971373

A perfect illustration of the phrase ‘**** in, **** out’
That’s nothing more than a computer model showing what it’s told to show.

If anyone thinks they could be the person on the left deluged in someone’s nose spray like that, I have some super duper extra protective 100% recyclable organic medical grade face masks for sale.

Edited; I see this website auto corrects the poo S word to 4 asterisks. Fair enough. Must be children present!

John O.Groats

weldoninhio wrote: »

Scarfs, snoods etc are just as effective as masks. We were/are still being asked to wear face coverings, not just masks. Was there a shortage of scarfs??

Actually they are not although obviously they are better than nothing.

odyssey06

The NCT test is for minimum 1.7 mm thread depth.
Recommended thread depth is 3mm.

Think of snoods as tyres with less than 3mm depth.

There are always compromises when it comes to what is legally enforceable.
Do you magically become able to handle drink at exactly 18 and not say 17 and 250 days?

Graham

3xh wrote: »

That’s nothing more than a computer model showing what it’s told to show.

Aalto University and the Finnish Meteorological Institute tell us two teams modelled the same scenario and obtained the same preliminary results

They go on to explain.

The airborne transport and preservation of droplets leaving the respiratory tract were simulated using a supercomputer, and 3D visualisation of the results was then carried out.

The physics of the phenomena now being modelled are very familiar from previous research. The consortium aims to use visualisation to create a better understanding of the behaviour of aerosol particles.

gozunda

3xh wrote: »

A perfect illustration of the phrase ‘**** in, **** out’
That’s nothing more than a computer model showing what it’s told to show. If anyone thinks they could be the person on the left deluged in someone’s nose spray like that, I have some super duper extra protective 100% recyclable organic medical grade face masks for sale.
Edited; I see this website auto corrects the poo S word to 4 asterisks. Fair enough. Must be children present!

The simulation is modeled on measurements taken from known data and includes the effects of ventilation

I take it you also dislike other forms of technological progress such as the combustion engine and electricity?

You must be new around here if you're only learning about **** now lol

3xh

Graham wrote: »

Quote: 3xh

That’s nothing more than a computer model showing what it’s told to show.


Aalto University and the Finnish Meteorological Institute tell us two teams modelled the same scenario and obtained the same preliminary results

They go on to explain.

Quote:
The airborne transport and preservation of droplets leaving the respiratory tract were simulated using a supercomputer, and 3D visualisation of the results was then carried out.


Quote:
The physics of the phenomena now being modelled are very familiar from previous research. The consortium aims to use visualisation to create a better understanding of the behaviour of aerosol particles.

Yes, so sh1t in, sh1t out then.

The visual cloud, mustard yellow too for extra effect, suggests the recipient will be covered in someone’s snot mist. Yet we’re told by all the experts like the WHO, ECDC, NPHET we need to be in close proximity for at least 15 mins to be considered a potential new case. And even then, it’s not a given that’ll you’ll contract it.

That visualisation is a dumbing down of what happens to us all throughout our days long before Covid arrived. To show that video as though it’s some kind of eureka evidence in the fight against Covid is wholly disingenuous.

I’d be embarrassed if I had to use that to show why we need to wear masks out shopping.

3xh

gozunda wrote: »

The simulation is modeled on measurements taken from known data and includes the effects of ventilation

I take it you also dislike other forms of technological progress such as the combustion engine and electricity?

You must be new around here if you're only learning about **** now lol

Yep. Long time lurker though! What a weird policy, I have to say. Anyway.

See my response to Graham. I don’t dispute the known data about how air/mist circulates in a known environment. Incidentally, are all Irish supermarket air con systems the same? Are they the same as what was used in this Finnish study? Unlikely.

My point is, so what if someone 2 metres away gets diluted snot mist on them as they walk through. Gross yes. But will they contract it? Unlikely. End up in hospital? Further unlikely. ICU? Even more so. Then death? You’re more likely to crash your car driving home.

I was simply rebuking the showing of the video as though it’s some lightbulb moment in the war on Covid. It’s nothing society hasn’t known before. Air circulates. No duh.

But to use it to suggest someone sneezing in aisle 3 will infect someone standing in aisle 2 is pretty tenuous even at a stretch.

Edited to say; the recipient also is only ‘covered’ in it for 2 minutes.

odyssey06

3xh wrote: »

Yes, so sh1t in, sh1t out then.
The visual cloud, mustard yellow too for extra effect, suggests the recipient will be covered in someone’s snot mist. Yet we’re told by all the experts like the WHO, ECDC, NPHET we need to be in close proximity for at least 15 mins to be considered a potential new case. And even then, it’s not a given that’ll you’ll contract it.
That visualisation is a dumbing down of what happens to us all throughout our days long before Covid arrived. To show that video as though it’s some kind of eureka evidence in the fight against Covid is wholly disingenuous.
I’d be embarrassed if I had to use that to show why we need to wear masks out shopping.

You seem unfamiliar with the concept of community transmission.
You have defined what it means to be a close contact.
Please provide source for your claim that you cant be infected with less than 15 minutes exposure.

Graham

3xh wrote: »

I don’t dispute the known data about how air/mist circulates in a known environment. Incidentally, are all Irish supermarket air con systems the same? Are they the same as what was used in this Finnish study.

You've 180'd from it's not modelled, to they're modelling the wrong type or Aircon.

:pac:

Sconsey

CalamariFritti wrote: »

No its evidence. Nobody is doubting that. It's evidence that fewer droplets (spit & snot) will come off you.

Which is not the same as being evidence for stopping the spread of coronavirus in Ireland by wearing them in supermarkets.
For that we'd have to have coronaviruses flying around in our supermarkets. For which we have zero evidence.

Ah I see, so we are making progress, you do accept that mask can reduce the spread of the virus, you don't think that the virus exists in supermarket environments.

Any reason for that? we know that it is spreading in households, it is spreading in hospitals, it is spreading in factories, in churches. We also know that it is spreading in other locations/situations (as evidenced by all the community transmission) but cannot put our finger on exactly what locations.
Considering that, what makes supermarkets such an exception as possible locations for virus transmission? All this community transmission is happening somewhere. But not supermarkets? Even though they have relatively high volumes of people going through them? Please explain how you can be so confident that there is no chance of community transmission in supermarkets*.

Your attitude seems to be 'better to be sorry than safe', don't chance wearing a mask unless you are 100% sure you will be exposed.

Also and finally, where did you hear people saying masks will stop the virus? I don't think anyone is saying that. Masks will, as you say yourself, reduce droplets in the air and therefore reduce the risk of spreading the virus. No one is saying they are an absolute solution. I think you are saying it to try to make masks users sound stupid, it's not working, gross exaggeration only makes your argument look even weaker.

*the lack of recorded clusters in supermarkets is not an explanation, it does not eliminate them as a source of possible community transmission

3xh

odyssey06 wrote: »

Quote: 3xh
Yes, so sh1t in, sh1t out then.
The visual cloud, mustard yellow too for extra effect, suggests the recipient will be covered in someone’s snot mist. Yet we’re told by all the experts like the WHO, ECDC, NPHET we need to be in close proximity for at least 15 mins to be considered a potential new case. And even then, it’s not a given that’ll you’ll contract it.
That visualisation is a dumbing down of what happens to us all throughout our days long before Covid arrived. To show that video as though it’s some kind of eureka evidence in the fight against Covid is wholly disingenuous.
I’d be embarrassed if I had to use that to show why we need to wear masks out shopping.


You seem unfamiliar with the concept of community transmission.
You have defined what it means to be a close contact.
Please provide source for your claim that you cant be infected with less than 15 minutes exposure.

I didn’t say you can’t be infected with less than 15 minutes exposure. I said, ‘....we’re told by all the experts like the WHO, ECDC, NPHET we need to be in close proximity for at least 15 mins to be considered a potential new case. And even then, it’s not a given that’ll you’ll contract it’

Don’t misquote me.

15 minutes was the figure given by the experts when this all started. It was the timeframe they used (I believe) on the tracing app too such that if two phones were in close proximity for less time and one owner contracted it, the other wouldn’t be contacted. I’m sure other countries around the world had variations on that time.

What timeframe are you suggesting is used and is accurate? A split second?! Once two people get within 2m of each other? Hardly.

amadangomor

Strangest contraption of a visor I saw in the local Aldi lately

There was a workman doing some maintenance there. Only way I could describe it was had a mini visor that only covered his mouth. Disgusting and pointless as he would be contaminating the whole setup by breathing all day with his nose on it.

odyssey06

3xh wrote: »

I didn’t say you can’t be infected with less than 15 minutes exposure. I said, ‘....we’re told by all the experts like the WHO, ECDC, NPHET we need to be in close proximity for at least 15 mins to be considered a potential new case. And even then, it’s not a given that’ll you’ll contract it’
Don’t misquote me.

15 minutes was the figure given by the experts when this all started.

No idea what you are on about.
Why bring 15 minutes into it at all then.
Your post is irrrelevent.

3xh

Graham wrote: »

You've 180'd from it's not modelled, to they're modelling the wrong type or Aircon.

:pac:

Hi Graham,

No. I was asking the open question, do all our supermarkets both brand new and the ones built in the 70s or earlier use the same air con systems and are they also the same air con system used in the video study? Fair question, I’d have thought.

Also, you posted a video of people coughing and sneezing with and without masks, earlier. I asked you, at the 1:25 mark, what is all that liquid coming out of the sneezers mouth?

Graham

3xh wrote: »

No. I was asking the open question, do all our supermarkets both brand new and the ones built in the 70s or earlier use the same air con systems and are they also the same air con system used in the video study? Fair question

No actually, you stated

"That’s nothing more than a computer model showing what it’s told to show"

3xh wrote: »

you posted a video of people coughing and sneezing with and without masks, earlier. I asked you, at the 1:25 mark, what is all that liquid coming out of the sneezers mouth?

Aerosol droplets would be my guess.

Don't tell me, wrong type of sneeze?

3xh

odyssey06 wrote: »

No idea what you are on about.
Why bring 15 minutes into it at all then.
Your post is irrrelevent.

Huh? You asked about the 15 minutes?

So in other words, if you visited a neighbour yesterday for a minute, test positive tomorrow, they won’t contact your neighbour. But if you spent all day with them indoors they’d contact them and recommend testing.

Incidentally, this is what the HSE say about shopping.......
‘ There is very little risk to you if you are just passing by someone briefly in a shop. But try to keep a distance of 2 metres as much as possible’

So once again, I don’t think that Finnish snot video is representative of the threat.

3xh

Graham wrote: »

Aerosol droplets would be my guess.

Don't tell me, wrong type of sneeze?

No need to guess, Graham. It’s there in the video you posted to show us just how important masks are. 1:24 mark. Top left video.

The guy’s mouth looks full of spit and when they allegedly sneeze, all this congealed liquid stuff comes out of their mouth. In multiple bursts too. Nothing from their nose. One hell of a weird sneeze.

In layman’s terms, your no mask sneezing/coughing video is dubious.

odyssey06

3xh wrote: »

Huh? You asked about the 15 minutes?
So in other words, if you visited a neighbour yesterday for a minute, test positive tomorrow, they won’t contact your neighbour. But if you spent all day with them indoors they’d contact them and

What relevancy has any of this to a discussion in masks and community transmission...
This constant goalpost shifting isnt convincing anyone. Your brought 15 minutes into it in post 341.

3xh

odyssey06 wrote: »

What relevancy has any of this to a discussion in masks and community transmission...
This constant goalpost shifting isnt convincing anyone. Your brought 15 minutes into it in post 341.

Yes, it’s to do with transmissions, time spent in a shop where masks are mandatory etc. Perhaps too much of thread drift for you but like with so many things Covid, there is vast overlapping between Masks, Regulations, NPHET daily figures, travel, etc.

Back to masks, so.....

Graham

3xh wrote: »

The guy’s mouth looks full of spit and when they allegedly sneeze, all this congealed liquid stuff comes out of their mouth. In multiple bursts too. Nothing from their nose. One hell of a weird sneeze.

Here's a few snippets that may help explain it to you. The accompanying article also contains similar imagery from 2009.

A sneeze, or sternutation, is a semi-autonomous, convulsive expulsion of air from the lungs through the nose and mouth, usually caused by foreign particles irritating the nasal mucosa. A sneeze expels air forcibly from the mouth and nose in an explosive, spasmodic involuntary action resulting chiefly from irritation of the nasal mucous membrane. This action allows for mucus to escape through the nasal cavity.

In addition to covering the mouth, looking down is also recommended in order to change the direction of the droplets spread and avoid high concentration in the human breathing heights.

During a sneeze, the soft palate and palatine uvula depress while the back of the tongue elevates to partially close the passage to the mouth so that air ejected from the lungs may be expelled through the nose. Because the closing of the mouth is partial, a considerable amount of this air is usually also expelled from the mouth. The force and extent of the expulsion of the air through the nose varies.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneeze

3xh

Graham wrote: »

Here's a few snippets that may help explain it to you. The accompanying article also contains similar imagery from 2009.




Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneeze

That’s your bolding, yeah? It does nothing to address the reality of the video at the 1:25 mark, Graham. Perhaps the video was created with a certain result image in mind?!

Nobody but a slobbering baby sneezes like that.

It’s completely not representative of why masks should be warn. Yet that was the reason for the video’s inclusion in this mask thread.

gozunda

3xh wrote: »

...

... I don’t think that Finnish snot video is representative of the threat.

Btw its not a 'snot' video. The video models a person coughing.

A 3D model of a person coughing in an indoor environment – how an aerosol cloud travels in the air 

The HSE advises "covering coughs and sneezes ...as the virus can spread easily in crowded environments"

A mask on a person coughing helps reduce outward dispersal and transmission.

Masks worn by those in proximity to the person coughing help by acting as a barrier.

Graham

3xh wrote: »

That’s your bolding, yeah?.

Yes, my bolding. I though it might help you spot the particularly relevant parts

Unfortunately ....

3xh wrote: »

It’s completely not representative of why masks should be warn. Yet that was the reason for the video’s inclusion in this mask thread.

Masks should be worn to stop aerosol droplets spreading, hence the comparison videos showing no mask, single ply masks, double ply masks and medical masks.

I'm sure I don't need to explain the relevance further.

GooglePlus

It's been proven that masks reduce spread, this debate is only still alive because of a small group that get a kick out of going against the grain, leave them to it.

I seen an anti mask protest a few weeks ago and the numbers were miniscule, which says it all. This lot would be out complaining about something else if there wasn't a pandemic, so there's no convincing.

Graces7

A small comment. If you had ever for any reason tried to suppress a sneeze you would realise the sheer force behind it. Try it? Feels as if your head is imploding. And that is the force with which anything in your nose and mouth is projected if you are not wearing a mask.

Living alone ( in permanent cocoon) out on a small offshore island means masks are not a feature of my life.

BUT I keep one by the door in case anyone calls to the gate. For my sake and theirs. A simple courtesy and safeguard that costs nothing and says everything.

And on the only occasion I left here for the last two years, which was a medical emergency air ambulance to hospital, of course I adhered to the strict mask policy. Every nurse, doctor, cleaner, catering staff, the pilot etc wore masks. when we landed an ambulance was standing by as I had a high temp and as that is a sign of covid? Isolation unit loomed until they learned where I was from as we are totally covid free and were quarantined early. We are infection free out here as are some deep rural areas, But if we go out there? Masks.

Whatever your personal ideas and gripes? However trivial you deem covid -19 to be? No one has the right or need to make a personal decision that endangers others or even has the slightest chance of doing so.

They knew as far back as the Black Death that wearing masks stopped infection
That was the year 1398.

This current wave of infections
is because precautions were relaxed or abandoned. Fewer deaths are not a waiver to abandon masks etc. We have learned how to treat covid better.

OK; I am off! Incredible that so many intelligent folks could argue for so many thousands of posts on something so small as wearing a mask. It seems to have become some kind of symbol of things that do not exist.

Closing boards down a while.

Peace to all out there from in here! We have a long road ahead.

bush

Graces7 wrote: »

A small comment. If you had ever for any reason tried to suppress a sneeze you would realise the sheer force behind it. Try it? Feels as if your head is imploding.

Sorry I have no problem suppressing a sneeze and my head doesnt feel like its imploding :pac:
Its really not that hard and its better than sneezing freely through some crappy weak mask which I see all the time.