To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

Seanergy

Seanergy wrote: »

Oh look a mask mandate where the incidents did not go up exponentially after the mandate.

Oh look surgical masks, not N95's were used.

BTW every mask has a value.

Are all of these charts wrong:

https://rationalground.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/9-29-Israel-Sweden-1024x739.png

https://rationalground.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/9-26-Spain_France-Masks-1024x612.png

https://rationalground.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/9-21-France-1024x619.png

https://rationalground.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/9-19-Spain-1024x578.png

https://rationalground.com/mask-charts/

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

He studied immunology: https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/546412-we-must-resist-the-latest-covid-era-power-grab-the-vaccine

"I’m a Duke Medical School trained M.D. and I studied immunology before moving on to my career in eye surgery."

A little learning is a dangerous thing.
The guy is an utterly discredited clown.

Paul announced on March 22, 2020, that he had tested positive for COVID-19 amid the ongoing pandemic of the disease. He was the first member of the United States Senate to test positive. Paul received bipartisan criticism from his Senate colleagues after it was discovered that he attended Senate lunches and used the Senate gym while awaiting his test results; he defended his actions because he had no symptoms of the illness and believed it was "highly unlikely" he was sick.

And well dodgy:
In 1997 he set up the National Board of Ophthalmology (NBO) to offer an alternative certification system... Paul appointed his own family members to the board of directors and registered the Board to an incorrect address.

VeryWise

Sooner masks are gone the better

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

Are all of these charts wrong:
https://rationalground.com/wp-conten...n-1024x739.png

https://rationalground.com/wp-conten...s-1024x612.png

https://rationalground.com/wp-conten...e-1024x619.png

https://rationalground.com/wp-conten...n-1024x578.png

https://rationalground.com/mask-charts/

Those charts(Italy, Sweeden, France, Spain and Israel) have nothing to do with Ireland, nothing, in fact that website has no Irish data on it what's so ever.

In fact website has no data as to who the owners are, who is responsible/accountable for the content, there is no disclaimer, privacy policy, t&c's or about page.

Who is behind those charts and that information? They seem secretive, why are they secretive, what are they hidding? Why are they doing this?

Why should you trust them? Who are they?

Belongs in conspiracy theory.

Seanergy

...wait..2 minutes later, et voila, Justin Hart is involved, say no more.

https://twitter.com/jhaskinscabrera/status/1306323878365614080

https://twitter.com/justin_hart/status/1306657755277586432

Sparkey84

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He studied immunology: https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/546412-we-must-resist-the-latest-covid-era-power-grab-the-vaccine

"I’m a Duke Medical School trained M.D. and I studied immunology before moving on to my career in eye surgery."

imagine if two doctors disagree about a diagnosis (happens regulary) the person who turns out to be wrong is still still wrong in spite of being a doctor.

you are a perfect example of the situation where having a qualification does not prove you're right.

by the way you quoted my post yesterday with your said gibberish but i failed to see a link. you made no reference or rebuttal to any of my points? was it a mis quote?

patnor1011

Deleted User wrote: »

He studied immunology: https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/546412-we-must-resist-the-latest-covid-era-power-grab-the-vaccine

"I’m a Duke Medical School trained M.D. and I studied immunology before moving on to my career in eye surgery."

Don't bother.
If he do not proclaim that even cloth mask has a merit and save lives he is not a doctor but a quack. What is even more funny is that those most vocal are usually just self-educated google certified virology experts. It become almost a religion.

Irish Stones

VeryWise wrote: »

Sooner masks are gone the better

I don't think they will go soon, in my opinion they will be the last restriction or precaution to go, not sooner than a couple of years.
I wonder what some people will do without them, they will feel lost. I have co-workers of mine that are feeling so safe with them on (and seeing others wearing them) that I think they will be completely mad when masks will be forgotten.
I think it may be a wise idea to ask my employer to makee all us employees wear the mask indefinitely, just to see if these co-workers are happy. After all, I can play the "I don't feel safe working in a place with unmasked people" card.

AlekSmart

odyssey06 wrote: »

A little learning is a dangerous thing.
The guy is an utterly discredited clown.

Paul announced on March 22, 2020, that he had tested positive for COVID-19 amid the ongoing pandemic of the disease. He was the first member of the United States Senate to test positive. Paul received bipartisan criticism from his Senate colleagues after it was discovered that he attended Senate lunches and used the Senate gym while awaiting his test results; he defended his actions because he had no symptoms of the illness and believed it was "highly unlikely" he was sick.

And well dodgy:
In 1997 he set up the National Board of Ophthalmology (NBO) to offer an alternative certification system... Paul appointed his own family members to the board of directors and registered the Board to an incorrect address.

He's not a Board Member of the Beacon.....is he ?

patnor1011

odyssey06 wrote: »

A little learning is a dangerous thing.
The guy is an utterly discredited clown.

Paul announced on March 22, 2020, that he had tested positive for COVID-19 amid the ongoing pandemic of the disease. He was the first member of the United States Senate to test positive. Paul received bipartisan criticism from his Senate colleagues after it was discovered that he attended Senate lunches and used the Senate gym while awaiting his test results; he defended his actions because he had no symptoms of the illness and believed it was "highly unlikely" he was sick.

And well dodgy:
In 1997 he set up the National Board of Ophthalmology (NBO) to offer an alternative certification system... Paul appointed his own family members to the board of directors and registered the Board to an incorrect address.

Would you please be so kind and post your own credentials and achievements?
Other than you consider yourself as education level authority and internet taught pandemic expert epidemiologist.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

I don't think they will go soon, in my opinion they will be the last restriction or precaution to go, not sooner than a couple of years.
I wonder what some people will do without them, they will feel lost. I have co-workers of mine that are feeling so safe with them on (and seeing others wearing them) that I think they will be completely mad when masks will be forgotten.
I think it may be a wise idea to ask my employer to makee all us employees wear the mask indefinitely, just to see if these co-workers are happy. After all, I can play the "I don't feel safe working in a place with unmasked people" card.

I think you're right. It's easy for them to go in Australia because they wear them for maybe a couple of weeks, or a couple of days, there and then they go. Victoria is a bit different because of the lengthy lockdown there. But they're slowly being dropped there too: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/new-rules-for-victorians-on-masks-and-gatherings-20210323-p57d6q.html

But people have been wearing them for a long time in Western Europe and in the US, Canada, and South America. They have become normalised. In Scotland's roadmap to normal life, or rather 'a semblance of normal life', mask wearing is a feature of level 0, the lowest possible level: https://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/19189804.face-mask-rules-scotland-mandatory-coverings-eased/

The roadmap in Scotland is a bit vague, however:

"Currently, guidance under Level 0 includes the mandatory wearing of face coverings on public transport and shops – unless you are exempt.

However, Ms Sturgeon said that “we hope we will be able to get beyond even that”, with a “view to restoring as much normality as possible”."

Let's see what 'beyond even that' looks like.

Ireland, meanwhile, doesn't even have a level 0 in its 'living with covid plan': https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/resilience-recovery-2020-2021-plan-for-living-with-covid-19/#

Has there been any talk in Italy of masks being scrapped? They're mandatory everywhere in Italy, aren't they?

patnor1011

patnor1011 wrote: »

Don't bother.
If he do not proclaim that even cloth mask has a merit and save lives he is not a doctor but a quack. What is even more funny is that those most vocal are usually just self-educated google certified virology experts. It become almost a religion.

I agree. And it's always the person that's attacked, as opposed to what the person is saying. I asked about what Dr Paul said because I wanted to find out whether what he said was accurate or not.

But it isn't almost a religion, it is a religion.

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

Every one of the mandates — and you look in country after country, state after state — you look at when the mask mandates went in — the incidents went up exponentially after the mandates.

It's almost as if countries/states implement mask mandates when facing exponentially increasing case numbers.

Correlation does not equal causation as I'm sure you're aware.

Sconsey

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree. And it's always the person that's attacked, as opposed to what the person is saying. I asked about what Dr Paul said because I wanted to find out whether what he said was accurate or not.

But it isn't almost a religion, it is a religion.

It's actually science but you go ahead and tell yourself whatever makes you happy.

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

What conditions do you think need to be met for masks to no longer be mandatory on public transport, in shops, and in public places?

You have been bouncing this question around for a few posts now, in Ireland and in relation to other countries.

The most concrete reply (see post #3679 ) that has been offered to you has gained zero response from you. Is the problem with the reply that you are also anti vax and don't 'like' the outcome/offer? head in the sand.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

It's almost as if countries/states implement mask mandates when facing exponentially increasing case numbers.

Correlation does not equal causation as I'm sure you're aware.

Peru has the highest per capita death rate on the planet and has the strictest mask laws on the planet. Spain, France, Italy, the US (certain states), the Philippines et al all have extremely strict mask laws and have the huge case and death numbers. There are of course other factors, but we are told again and again that masks are extraordinarily effective.

Why is Germany talking about going back into lockdown soon after making FFP2 or FFP3 masks mandatory? If they're talking about going back into lockdown then can it be argued that those masks made no difference?

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

There are of course other factors, but we are told again and again that masks are extraordinarily effective.

Cobblers

We're told masks are one tool in the arsenal. We know masks are one tool in the arsenal.

Seanergy

Seanergy wrote: »

You have been bouncing this question around for a few posts now, in Ireland and in relation to other countries.

The most concrete reply (see post #3679 ) that has been offered to you has gained zero response from you. Is the problem with the reply that you are also anti vax and don't 'like' the outcome/offer? head in the sand.

Sorry, I didn't see that post. I read the article, but it doesn't go into specifics.

Why do you insist on attacking people in your posts? Just because a person has a different view to you does not mean they are 'anti vax'. I have got vaccines in the past. I have no problem with them.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Cobblers

We're told masks are one tool in the arsenal. We know masks are one tool in the arsenal.

No, we're told that they are extremely effective:

This doctor even thinks they should stay in shops, and on public transport post-covid:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/covid-masks-save-american-lives-they-still-can-should-post-ncna1263366

odyssey06

patnor1011 wrote: »

Would you please be so kind and post your own credentials and achievements?
Other than you consider yourself as education level authority and internet taught pandemic expert epidemiologist.

He is introduced as a Dr... therefore his credentials are used as part of an argument from authority. And he has no credibility.
I refer you to the credentials of the actual experts in this field such as the CDC which recommend masks.
If you are going to challenge them you need something more solid than...

The guy is an eye doctor stroke politician who ignored testing protocol and went to gym and work instead of isolating... possiblt infecting others.
He rants about restaurants ignoring all the cases traced to them. He offers no credible alternative to the CDC measures or explanation of transmission.
He ignores the distinction between masks as barriers and as PPE.

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't see that post. I read the article, but it doesn't go into specifics.

Why do you insist on attacking people in your posts? Just because a person has a different view to you does not mean they are 'anti vax'. I have got vaccines in the past. I have no problem with them.

Explain yourself.

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

Peru has the highest per capita death rate on the planet and has the strictest mask laws on the planet. Spain, France, Italy, the US (certain states), the Philippines et al all have extremely strict mask laws and have the huge case and death numbers. There are of course other factors, but we are told again and again that masks are extraordinarily effective.

Why is Germany talking about going back into lockdown soon after making FFP2 or FFP3 masks mandatory? If they're talking about going back into lockdown then can it be argued that those masks made no difference?

No it cannot, unless you have sound scientific evidence.


What's your definition of a strict mask law?

Seanergy

Seanergy wrote: »

No it cannot, unless you have sound scientific evidence.


What's your definition of a strict mask law?

I don't have sound scientific evidence. I'm asking the question in the hope of finding out what effect the introduction of those masks had in Germany.

A strict mask law for me is the law in Peru and Spain where masks are required everywhere. In Peru double masking is now being recommended.

And in the Philippines face shields and masks are required everywhere. So that's probably the strictest mask law in the world.

Seanergy

On this day last year the EAG had a another lengthy meeting to discuss the use of masks by HCW's.

I am going to share a few scrnshts from this metting. To read the meeting in full. LINK

odyssey06

odyssey06 wrote: »

He is introduced as a Dr... therefore his credentials are used as part of an argument from authority. And he has no credibility.
I refer you to the credentials of the actual experts in this field such as the CDC which recommend masks.
If you are going to challenge them you need something more solid than...

The guy is an eye doctor stroke politician who ignored testing protocol and went to gym and work instead of isolating... possiblt infecting others.
He rants about restaurants ignoring all the cases traced to them. He offers no credible alternative to the CDC measures or explanation of transmission.
He ignores the distinction between masks as barriers and as PPE.

But there are very distinguished and eminent doctors and scientists who have been dismissed as cranks (in the media, I mean) because they are of the view that masks weren't effective. Professor Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford and Professor Martin Kulldorff of Harvard, for example, said children did not need to wear masks. The video on YouTube of their roundtable discussion with Governor Ron DeSantis was taken down: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/04/09/desantis-youtube-coronavirus/

xhomelezz

patnor1011 wrote: »

Don't bother.
If he do not proclaim that even cloth mask has a merit and save lives he is not a doctor but a quack. What is even more funny is that those most vocal are usually just self-educated google certified virology experts. It become almost a religion.

That description fits you well..

Seanergy

continued.... like I said, visit link to read full meeting, just a few quick extract shared here. Masks have dominated the last few EAG meetings and it would appear a real stalemate/standoff developed within this group during this time.

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have sound scientific evidence. I'm asking the question in the hope of finding out what effect the introduction of those masks had in Germany.

You have no sound scientific evidence, your not just fishing, in the hope something will stick, you are making claims that you cannot back up with sound scientific evidence.

Just look at what you are saying about masks. These are not just 'questions in the hope of finding' out what effect the introduction of masks had.

This is just one example of what you said.

Every one of the mandates — and you look in country after country...you look at when the mask mandates went in — the incidents went up exponentially after the mandates.

There’s no evidence that that slowed down the....

Seanergy

Seanergy wrote: »

You have no sound scientific evidence, your not just fishing, in the hope something will stick, you are making claims that you cannot back up with sound scientific evidence.

Just look at what you are saying about masks. These are not just 'questions in the hope of finding' out what effect the introduction of masks had.

This is just one example of what you said.

I didn't say that. I quoted Dr Rand Paul who said that.

Seanergy

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have sound scientific evidence.

A strict mask law for me is the law in Peru and Spain where masks are required everywhere. In Peru double masking is now being recommended.

And in the Philippines face shields and masks are required everywhere. So that's probably the strictest mask law in the world.

A strict mask law to you is about locations, then? It's not about the quality of the mask or how the mask is worn/seals to the face.

There is a large difference between law, quality of mask and application. Until you stick your head down the rabbit hole of mask quality, every surgical mask just looks like every other surgical mask.

A strict mask law with poor quality of mask or poor application is not worth pot.

By application I mean seal to the face.