To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland, meanwhile, doesn't even have a level 0 in its 'living with covid plan': https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/resilience-recovery-2020-2021-plan-for-living-with-covid-19/#

Not having it in the plan means that this is the least concern at the moment, and probably the last precaution to go away.

Has there been any talk in Italy of masks being scrapped? They're mandatory everywhere in Italy, aren't they?

No, we've been hinted that the mask will stay for a long time, nothing specific though.
Masks are mandatory everywhere here in Italy, you're spot on. Of course in enclosed spaces (workplaces and shops) but also outdoors. Wearing a mask is mandatory even if we're out for a walk, away from others. We're exempt if we're exercising (running, cycling, etc) provided we're alone and not in group.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

Not having it in the plan means that this is the least concern at the moment, and probably the last precaution to go away.



No, we've been hinted that the mask will stay for a long time, nothing specific though.
Masks are mandatory everywhere here in Italy, you're spot on. Of course in enclosed spaces (workplaces and shops) but also outdoors. Wearing a mask is mandatory even if we're out for a walk, away from others. We're exempt if we're exercising (running, cycling, etc) provided we're alone and not in group.

Yes, I think you're right. Mark Drakeford, First Minister of Wales, says that, if things go well, "only "simple restrictions"" will still be in place by the end of the year. Two of those simple restrictions are mask wearing and social distancing. How social distancing is simple restriction for businesses, I do not know. And how mask wearing is a simple restriction, I also do not know. But if he's talking about them still being required by the end of the year I don't know how they'll ever go: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/three-restrictions-mark-drakeford-says-20239664

There were 3 deaths in England yesterday within 28 days of a positive PCR test: https://twitter.com/carlheneghan/status/1381326211285188616?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

And yet Dr Mary Ramsay of Public Health predicts that mask wearing and social distancing measures will be in place for years in the UK. SAGE are saying the same thing.

Is there any opposition to masks in Italy?

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I think you're right. Mark Drakeford, First Minister of Wales, says that, if things go well, "only "simple restrictions"" will still be in place by the end of the year

That's interesting, because what a country decides might affect what other countries will.
Thanks for the video link.

And yet Dr Mary Ramsay of Public Health predicts that mask wearing and social distancing measures will be in place for years in the UK. SAGE are saying the same thing.

This doesn't sound good at all.

Is there any opposition to masks in Italy?

Well, it's a mixed issue. We had a few marches and protests in the main cities of people who were asking to either be able to open their businesses (bars, restaurants, hotels, hair dressers, gyms, wedding planners, and so on) or to receive compensations and economic support fro their huge losses.
Among the protesters lots weren't wearing a mask as a sign of a further opposition to the situation.
There are also "no mask" movements, but they are small entities as far as I know, they are mainly young people, teenagers.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

That's interesting, because what a country decides might affect what other countries will.
Thanks for the video link.



This doesn't sound good at all.



Well, it's a mixed issue. We had a few marches and protests in the main cities of people who were asking to either be able to open their businesses (bars, restaurants, hotels, hair dressers, gyms, wedding planners, and so on) or to receive compensations and economic support fro their huge losses.
Among the protesters lots weren't wearing a mask as a sign of a further opposition to the situation.
There are also "no mask" movements, but they are small entities as far as I know, they are mainly young people, teenagers.

But it's important to balance that with good news. In Australia New South Wales has scrapped masks (they're still required in theatres, but that will go as well soon, I'd say), Victoria has scrapped them in all retail, and the other states are virtually mask free. So we do have examples of them being introduced and subsequently got rid of. There are also states in the US where they are being scrapped (although it's a bit different in the US because Governors are allowing business to decide on heir own mask policies, so it's more half scrapping them than fully scrapping them). But the system of government in the US is very complicated. I like the federal system, but there's a lot of local government there. Mayors, councillors, governors etc.

I've seen videos of protests against business closures in Italy, but I never read about mask protests there. And I've only ever read about one protest against masks happening in Spain, where masks are also mandatory everywhere.

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen videos of protests against business closures in Italy, but I never read about mask protests there. And I've only ever read about one protest against masks happening in Spain, where masks are also mandatory everywhere.

More than real protests, it's just an attitude where (young) people gather and show themselves unmasked.
As for the protests where people ask for openings, one of the last protests we had was a week ago and one of the persons wore the same outfit as the "Shaman at the Capitol Hill"
https://citynews-today.stgy.ovh/~media/horizontal-mid/20093344258376/hermes-ferrari-sciamano-roma-2.jpg
If you take a look at the photo, you will see some unmasked people during that protest.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

More than real protests, it's just an attitude where (young) people gather and show themselves unmasked.
As for the protests where people ask for openings, one of the last protests we had was a week ago and one of the persons wore the same outfit as the "Shaman at the Capitol Hill"
https://citynews-today.stgy.ovh/~media/horizontal-mid/20093344258376/hermes-ferrari-sciamano-roma-2.jpg
If you take a look at the photo, you will see some unmasked people during that protest.

I see. And is there any roadmap back to normal life in Italy? Something like this: https://www.thelocal.se/20210330/a-three-step-plan-when-and-how-sweden-hopes-to-lift-its-covid-19-restrictions/

Of course, Sweden won't have to scrap mask wearing (I imagine the recommendation to wear them on public transport at certain times will be phased out).

In Ireland one hears constant talk of 'a degree of normality'. And, as pointed out previously, the Irish plan doesn't include a level 0.

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

In Ireland one hears constant talk of 'a degree of normality'. And, as pointed out previously, the Irish plan doesn't include a level 0.

what do you think that signifies?

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

I see. And is there any roadmap back to normal life in Italy? Something like this: https://www.thelocal.se/20210330/a-three-step-plan-when-and-how-sweden-hopes-to-lift-its-covid-19-restrictions/

Of course, Sweden won't have to scrap mask wearing (I imagine the recommendation to wear them on public transport at certain times will be phased out).

In Ireland one hears constant talk of 'a degree of normality'. And, as pointed out previously, the Irish plan doesn't include a level 0.

What we are being told everyday is that our vaccination campaign is doing great and they plan to complete the roll out by the end of September, though I believe they are being too optimistic. We have completed 9 millions people with at least one shot (15% of the population), and nearly 4 millions with both shots (6.5%), so I fail to see how they can complete the plan in the next 5 months.

The current plan is of a slow reopening starting from April 20th, though something more will be done past April 30th.
One of the latest news is that the tourism could reopen from June 2nd (a national holiday here).

But we do not have a structured plan like yours of the Swedish one.

Our country goes according to a colour scheme, rather than Levels. Colours are applied to single regions according to their level of risk.

https://immagini.quotidiano.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fp1014p.quotidiano.net%3A80%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.6227646.1617989495%21%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Fwidescreen%2Fimage.jpg&h=368&fmt=webp

As from today most of the country is Orange, mild risk, with most of business open, bars and restaurant can stay open till 6:30 pm for delivery and take away only. Schools can reopen too. Cinemas, theatres, gyms are still closed. We can get out of home and move within the town or city. Can't leave it unless for valid reasons.

Under the Red colour, only essential services can operate. People are not allowed to leave home unless for valid reasons.
Under the Yellow colour all business are open, people can move outside their town.
The White colour is "business as usual", though with masks and distances.

We are never allowed to cross the border with the next region (always unless for a valid reason)

We have a curfew from 10 pm to 5 am everyday.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

what do you think that signifies?

That level 1 is as good as it gets. Level 1 would be 'a degree of normality'.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

What we are being told everyday is that our vaccination campaign is doing great and they plan to complete the roll out by the end of September, though I believe they are being too optimistic. We have completed 9 millions people with at least one shot (15% of the population), and nearly 4 millions with both shots (6.5%), so I fail to see how they can complete the plan in the next 5 months.

The current plan is of a slow reopening starting from April 20th, though something more will be done past April 30th.
One of the latest news is that the tourism could reopen from June 2nd (a national holiday here).

But we do not have a structured plan like yours of the Swedish one.

Our country goes according to a colour scheme, rather than Levels. Colours are applied to single regions according to their level of risk.

https://immagini.quotidiano.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fp1014p.quotidiano.net%3A80%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.6227646.1617989495%21%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Fwidescreen%2Fimage.jpg&h=368&fmt=webp

As from today most of the country is Orange, mild risk, with most of business open, bars and restaurant can stay open till 6:30 pm for delivery and take away only. Schools can reopen too. Cinemas, theatres, gyms are still closed. We can get out of home and move within the town or city. Can't leave it unless for valid reasons.

Under the Red colour, only essential services can operate. People are not allowed to leave home unless for valid reasons.
Under the Yellow colour all business are open, people can move outside their town.
The White colour is "business as usual", though with masks and distances.

We are never allowed to cross the border with the next region (always unless for a valid reason)

We have a curfew from 10 pm to 5 am everyday.

So nothing about scrapping masks and social distancing. The white colour in Italy sounds similar to level 1 in Ireland's plan.

It sounds very tough. Curfew, masks everywhere, can't leave you town or city.

Yes, I think they are being very optimistic. Australia announced the other day that they wouldn't complete the campaign before the end of the year: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/12/australia-drops-vaccine-goal-after-astrazeneca-advice-change

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

That level 1 is as good as it gets. Level 1 would be 'a degree of normality'.

No wonder you're frightening yourself.

You may be relieved to discover that no previous pandemic has ever turned out to be permanent.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

No wonder you're frightening yourself.

You may be relieved to discover that no previous pandemic has ever turned out to be permanent.

The pandemic won't, but it's not unheard of for measures introduced as temporary (income tax, for example) only to end up being permanent.

The Emergency Powers Act of 1939 wasn't repealed until 1959 and the last of the regulations didn't expire until 1964.

And remember that we're living in the social media era in which politicians are heavily influenced by Twitter.

mandrake04

Deleted User wrote: »

But it's important to balance that with good news. In Australia New South Wales has scrapped masks (they're still required in theatres, but that will go as well soon, I'd say), Victoria has scrapped them in all retail, and the other states are virtually mask free. So we do have examples

It’s true only need masks in live theatre but not in Cinema.

Also I work mainly in Hospitals in NSW and there has been no requirement to wear masks in Hospitals either since February, same in ACT was in Canberra Hosp today and no there’s requirement to wear a mask inside hospital.

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

The Emergency Powers Act of 1939 wasn't repealed until 1959 and the last of the regulations didn't expire until 1964.

So not permanent, and regulations can be in place without anything being done with them.

Deleted User wrote: »

And remember that we're living in the social media era in which politicians are heavily influenced by Twitter.

Influenced by all those non-existent people calling for restrictions to be kept in place after the pandemic???

mandrake04

mandrake04 wrote: »

It’s true only need masks in live theatre but not in Cinema.

Also I work mainly in Hospitals in NSW and there has been no requirement to wear masks in Hospitals either since February, same in ACT was in Canberra Hosp today and no there’s requirement to wear a mask inside hospital.

That's what gives me hope, that we have in Australia an example of a country that introduced measures and subsequently scrapped them. In Western Europe the talk is of 'a degree of normality' and mask wearing and social distancing lasting for years.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

So not permanent, and regulations can be in place without anything being done with them.



Influenced by all those non-existent people calling for restrictions to be kept in place after the pandemic???

Ok, a long temporary then.

And income tax was permanent.

There are a lot of people who believe one death is too many in terms of covid. You see a lot of it on social media. Politicians are influenced by social media.

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, a long temporary then.

And income tax was permanent.

So temporary and unrelated to taxation

Deleted User wrote: »

There are a lot of people who believe one death is too many in terms of covid. You see a lot of it on social media. Politicians are influenced by social media.

Hmmm, I'm not convinced we're going to see significant policy decisions made on the back of a few social media posts.

If that were the case we'd now be imposing a zero covid policy along while simultaneously dropping all restrictions.

Fortunately both extremes are largely being ignored.

mandrake04

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what gives me hope, that we have in Australia an example of a country that introduced measures and subsequently scrapped them. In Western Europe the talk is of 'a degree of normality' and mask wearing and social distancing lasting for years.

I wouldn’t be surprised, Europe and countries like Brazil etc are considered high risk so there’s definitely something to it. Hopefully we can stay closed to those parts of the world until the vaccines prove themselves effective over prolonged time. It be crap if the wheels fell off in the Northern winter and ruin our summer.

Irish Stones

Graham wrote: »

You may be relieved to discover that no previous pandemic has ever turned out to be permanent.

That is true, no previous pandemic became permanent, and probably this won't be different.
But we have to keep in mind that during the previous pandemics they didn't issue this level of restrictions and countermeasures, nor did they instil this level of fear and suspicion of those you have next to you.
Do you really believe that when this pandemic is over, people will still feel safe and confident to gather shoulder to shoulder in large masses of people at a concert or any other large public event? How long will it take before people feel confident again to shake hands of kiss each other when they meet?
The amount of mistrust of the others and instilled fear from the media and governments is unprecedented.

I would like to point out that nearly nobody of those who are at least 70 years of age remember the previous great pandemics, because they didn't have to live this way. No bad or unpleasant memory from those days remains in their minds.

Graham

Irish Stones wrote: »

Do you really believe that when this pandemic is over, people will still feel safe and confident to gather shoulder to shoulder in large masses of people at a concert or any other large public event?

For the most part, yes.

odyssey06

Irish Stones wrote: »

I would like to point out that nearly nobody of those who are at least 70 years of age remember the previous great pandemics, because they didn't have to live this way. No bad or unpleasant memory from those days remains in their minds.

There's no grounds to make that claim.

What about the funerals they attended?

What about children with TB taken away to sanitoriums?

And then there are people who could be remembered fondly, had they lived.

Irish Stones

odyssey06 wrote: »

There's no grounds to make that claim.

What about the funerals they attended?

What about children with TB taken away to sanitoriums?

And then there are people who could be remembered fondly, had they lived.

People are dying this time too, but all the rest survived during the past pandemics, business survived.
Why didn't they tried to do their best to save the people too?

AlekSmart

Irish Stones wrote: »

That is true, no previous pandemic became permanent, and probably this won't be different.
But we have to keep in mind that during the previous pandemics they didn't issue this level of restrictions and countermeasures, nor did they instil this level of fear and suspicion of those you have next to you.
Do you really believe that when this pandemic is over, people will still feel safe and confident to gather shoulder to shoulder in large masses of people at a concert or any other large public event? How long will it take before people feel confident again to shake hands of kiss each other when they meet?
The amount of mistrust of the others and instilled fear from the media and governments is unprecedented.

I would like to point out that nearly nobody of those who are at least 70 years of age remember the previous great pandemics, because they didn't have to live this way. No bad or unpleasant memory from those days remains in their minds.

Interesting point.

Both my late parents were of the TB generation,who experienced the introduction of TB clinics,and the process of isolating the infected and confining them in open-ended wards with plenty of Fresh-Air as a prime treatment of the disease.

As a child of the 60's myself,I had a happy and open childhood with two of the simplest and easiest going Parents one could wish for.

In spite of the deprivations they undoubtedly encountered,both post WW2,and the era of an emerging and largely religion orientated State,they got on and lived their lives with no desire to fill my youthful head,with terrified notions of doom if I interacted with another human.

We've lost our confidence,our robustness and instead had it replaced with Fear,Mistrust and a need for the imposition of rules to guide us through the simplest junction.

The Human function has been depleted,and to what end ..?

Lumen

Well this thread has gone off on a weird tangent.

My mother had polio as a kid. She remembers the terror of the polio wards. Still has health problems as a result. It left a scar on a generation.

Now she protects herself from COVID the same as any other sane person, because she doesn't want to get seriously ill and possibly die.

odyssey06

Irish Stones wrote: »

People are dying this time too, but all the rest survived during the past pandemics, business survived.
Why didn't they tried to do their best to save the people too?

You are making claims that are utterly unknowable "No bad or unpleasant memory from those days remains in their minds" and it would be pointless to debate them further in the context of this thread.

Seanergy

Irish Stones wrote: »

Not having it in the plan means that this is the least concern at the moment, and probably the last precaution to go away.

Actually before masks were introduced, it was agreed by the EAG that they would be the first NPI to go.

xhomelezz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's what gives me hope, that we have in Australia an example of a country that introduced measures and subsequently scrapped them. In Western Europe the talk is of 'a degree of normality' and mask wearing and social distancing lasting for years.

Australia and Ireland are two way too different countries when it comes to covid. Can't even imagine the amount of crying certain posters would do, if we went Australian way.

Seanergy

xhomelezz wrote: »

Australia and Ireland are two way too different countries when it comes to covid. Can't even imagine the amount of crying certain posters would do, if we went Australian way.

Did you know that that Ireland's first pandemic Influenza plan(2002) copied heavilyfrom Australia's first Influenza plan(1999), not many people do.

Australian Influenza Pandemic Plan, Version 1, 1999

• Infection control measures may include isolation, temporary closure of schools and businesses, use of masks etc. In the likely scenario that there will be markedly insufficient quantities of vaccine or antiviral drugs, these measures may well be the main public health intervention.

Ireland's Model Plan for Influenza Preparedness, Version 5.2, 2002

• Infection control measures may include isolation, temporary closure of schools and businesses, use of masks etc. In the likely scenario that there will be limited quantities of vaccine or antiviral drugs, these measures may well be the main public health intervention.

Seanergy

We did this because the WHO advised Ireland in 1999 to get a plan together. The Australia Influenza Pandemic Plan was the first Anglophone plan available. Sadly though we only copied parts of it completely. We started copying the plan in 2000 but it was not until 2002 that we published 'our' first Influenza Pandemic Plan.

We didn't copy this bit.

Australian Influenza Pandemic Plan, Version 1, 1999

All visitors, staff, students and volunteers should wear a N95 mask on entering the room of a patient with influenza (confirmed or suspected). The N95 mask is often used to protect against tuberculosis. Surgical masks do not compare in effectiveness; however they may be required if there are insufficient N95 masks.

Irish Stones

Seanergy wrote: »

Actually before masks were introduced, it was agreed by the EAG that they would be the first NPI to go.

Actually they were, too, the last PPE to be introduced and made mandatory during this emergency, so I don't think this should be taken as a model.