To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

I see. And is there any roadmap back to normal life in Italy? Something like this: https://www.thelocal.se/20210330/a-three-step-plan-when-and-how-sweden-hopes-to-lift-its-covid-19-restrictions/

[...CUT...]

In Ireland one hears constant talk of 'a degree of normality'. And, as pointed out previously, the Irish plan doesn't include a level 0.

Nothing to do with masks, but you might find this thing interesting.

San Marino is a microstate within the Italian territory. It has about 33k inhabitants. They have euro currency, but they have a separate government and laws and rules. But it is not part of the EU, so they were able to sign different deals with vaccine manufacturers and do not have to follow the guidelines of the EMA. This way they got hold of large amounts (relatively to their size) of vaccine, the Sputnik too, and have nearly completed their vaccination campaign of the whole population.

They now have a definite plan for the reopening.
As from yesterday, all schools are open again. Non essential shops and all services will be working.
Bars and restaurants are now all open till 9:30 pm, but as from next Monday, April 19th, they will be allowed to stay open till 11 pm, and from April 26th they will have no more limitations.
On April 19th also gyms and swimming pools will open.
On April 26th cinema, theatres and museums will open to the public.
The curfew will be lifted on the same day.

patnor1011

Sparkey84 wrote: »

if the sarcasam did not get go through, it is not magic it is science, jab is complex science the mask is really simple science, to most of us.

Sure. For most of the people here science become something magical when in fact science is just trying to put theories in practice which sometimes work and sometimes they dont.
You do not need to lecture me about science I do have quite a lot scientists in my family.

Graham

patnor1011 wrote: »

You do not need to lecture me about science I do have quite a lot scientists in my family.

Cool, I have a Doctor in my family. Imagine what that qualifies me for*.





*SFA

Seanergy

Irish Stones wrote: »

the last PPE to be introduced and made mandatory during this emergency, so I don't think this should be taken as a model.

Facecoverings are not PPE.

We know the EAG said facecoverings/masks would be the first IPC to go.

Thinking not knowing on your behalf.

Away With The Fairies

Irish Stones wrote: »

That is true, no previous pandemic became permanent, and probably this won't be different.
But we have to keep in mind that during the previous pandemics they didn't issue this level of restrictions and countermeasures, nor did they instil this level of fear and suspicion of those you have next to you.
Do you really believe that when this pandemic is over, people will still feel safe and confident to gather shoulder to shoulder in large masses of people at a concert or any other large public event? How long will it take before people feel confident again to shake hands of kiss each other when they meet?
The amount of mistrust of the others and instilled fear from the media and governments is unprecedented.

I would like to point out that nearly nobody of those who are at least 70 years of age remember the previous great pandemics, because they didn't have to live this way. No bad or unpleasant memory from those days remains in their minds.

Didn't the Spanish flu have restrictions?

Irish Stones

Seanergy wrote: »

Facecoverings are not PPE..

FFP2 and 3 are PPE.
Surgical masks and other face coverings are not.

We know the EAG said facecoverings/masks would be the first IPC to go.

So far it seems the contrary, because even those who had the two shots of vaccine can't get rid of them. It is possible they will last even when all the population will be vaccinated, and they will be dropped when we are completely sure that there's no transmission of the virus post vaccination.

Irish Stones

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Didn't the Spanish flu have restrictions?

They had face coverings, but I'm not sure the authorities limited the movements of persons or that shops/schools were closed.
After all, they held the Inter-Allied Games in 1919 in Paris (sort of Olympic Games), and public could attend the events with only the masks on their faces, but no distances.

Seanergy

Irish Stones wrote: »

So far it seems the contrary, because even those who had the two shots of vaccine can't get rid of them.

Have those with 2shots been told to stop washing their hands or stop social distancing or told they can travel anywhere within the country, no.

So it does not seem the contrary. Modeling may change, but masks are on the record as being the first NPI to go.

Sparkey84

patnor1011 wrote: »

Sure. For most of the people here science become something magical when in fact science is just trying to put theories in practice which sometimes work and sometimes they dont.
You do not need to lecture me about science I do have quite a lot scientists in my family.

whether those theories work or not it is still science, as long as they are being measured objectively.
what do the scientists in your family think of the to mask or not to mask conundrum?

Irish Stones

Seanergy wrote: »

Have those with 2shots been told to stop washing their hands or stop social distancing or told they can travel anywhere within the country, no.

So it does not seem the contrary. Modeling may change, but masks are on the record as being the first NPI to go.

Actually a recent article I had read said that washing hands wasn't a key precaution, and even not washing hands wouldn't get the situation worse.
I also read that somewhere, can't remember where, people with two shots and a vaccine pass would be allowed to access only if they can prove a negative test swab. But I can't remember where.
This could make us think that these vaccines aren't so effective, so why drop the masks?

Sparkey84

Irish Stones wrote: »

Actually a recent article I had read said that washing hands wasn't a key precaution, and even not washing hands wouldn't get the situation worse.
I also read that somewhere, can't remember where, people with two shots and a vaccine pass would be allowed to access only if they can prove a negative test swab. But I can't remember where.
This could make us think that these vaccines aren't so effective, so why drop the masks?

in a gp's office a girl with abdo pain will get a pregnancy test even if the only sex she had involved a condom. condoms are only 95% effective testing still needed. vaccine 95% efficacy so testing still needed. testing being needed does not mean ineffective.

and washing hands is of vital importance,

Seanergy

Irish Stones wrote: »

Actually a recent article I had read said that washing hands wasn't a key precaution, and even not washing hands wouldn't get the situation worse.
I also read that somewhere, can't remember where, people with two shots and a vaccine pass would be allowed to access only if they can prove a negative test swab. But I can't remember where.
This could make us think that these vaccines aren't so effective, so why drop the masks?

So you can't recall where you read these things but you can recall what was said, sure.

Irish Stones

Seanergy wrote: »

So you can't recall where you read these things but you can recall what was said, sure.

No, I said that I have read the news on an online newspaper, or more than one. The core content of one of these aticles was that in order to have access to some events (and it was here, somewhere in my country, Italy, but can't remember where), you need to produce a vaccine pass AND a negative test.
It's different from what you say in your reply
It isn't important the exact location, because wherever it is I won't go there at all.

I read lots of stuff during the day, and I listen to and watch a few channels on TV, so I often mix things up and lose minimal details, like specific places or dates, or numbers, but the context is what is important.
Moreover, I suffer from a bit of brain fog post-covid, so I have difficulty at keeping trace of what I do, see, hear during my day. It's a really hard life for me, post-covid. I used to have a very reliable memory, now, sometimes, I find it hard to remember what day is today.

Sparkey84

Irish Stones wrote: »

No, I said that I have read the news on an online newspaper, or more than one. The core content of one of these aticles was that in order to have access to some events (and it was here, somewhere in my country, Italy, but can't remember where), you need to produce a vaccine pass AND a negative test.
It's different from what you say in your reply
It isn't important the exact location, because wherever it is I won't go there at all.

I read lots of stuff during the day, and I listen to and watch a few channels on TV, so I often mix things up and lose minimal details, like specific places or dates, or numbers, but the context is what is important.
Moreover, I suffer from a bit of brain fog post-covid, so I have difficulty at keeping trace of what I do, see, hear during my day. It's a really hard life for me, post-covid. I used to have a very reliable memory, now, sometimes, I find it hard to remember what day is today.

sorry to hear about your post covid hope you improve a lot. best wishes. i would not take it personally about your comments, i think the point is just that it is very hard to pick fact from fiction on social media and info being not referenced does greatly degrade its value.

Seanergy

Minuetes from the EAG metting on this day last year, 15th April, 2020.

The chair explained that the recommendation regarding the wearing of masks for close patient contact went to NPHET. NPHET accepted the recommendation in principle for near patient care but not for HCWs when physical distancing can’t be maintained. However, the issue needed further review, in terms of ensuring there would be a sufficient supply of masks to implement this change.

Seanergy

Irish Stones wrote: »

I read lots of stuff during the day, and I listen to and watch a few channels on TV, so I often mix things up and lose minimal details, like specific places or dates, or numbers, but the context is what is important.
Moreover, I suffer from a bit of brain fog post-covid, so I have difficulty at keeping trace of what I do, see, hear during my day. It's a really hard life for me, post-covid. I used to have a very reliable memory, now, sometimes, I find it hard to remember what day is today.

Where information is published is not minimal detail. Can you remember where you read this?

Actually a recent article I had read said that washing hands wasn't a key precaution, and even not washing hands wouldn't get the situation worse.

Irish Stones

Seanergy wrote: »

Where information is published is not minimal detail. Can you remember where you read this?

Yes, it was on a national newspaper about a week ago, maybe during the weekend. I'll look for it

Seanergy

From 1918.

A man or woman or child who will not wear a mask now is a dangerous slacker.

Irish Stones

Found it. It was Saturday, April 10th.

https://www.lastampa.it/topnews/primo-piano/2021/04/10/news/che-fine-ha-fatto-il-lavarsi-le-mani-cantando-happy-birthday-1.40134457

The article is behind a paywall, but the first few lines can still be read.

Che fine ha fatto il lavarsi le mani cantando Happy Birthday?
La tragica esperienza di quest’anno ha dimostrato che il virus si diffonde quasi interamente nell'aria

Un anno fa i virologi continuavano a raccomandarci di lavarci spesso le mani, anzi di farlo abbastanza a lungo da poter cantare due volte di seguito “Happy birthday to you”. Possiamo forse mettere via il sapone: i Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, i più importanti organismi di controllo sulla sanità pubblica degli Stati Uniti, hanno aggiornato le linee guida: il rischio di contrarre il Covid toccando una maniglia, un libro o il sedile di un autobus è estremamente basso.

===

What happened to washing hands while singing Happy Birthday?
The tragic experience of the past year proved that the virus is almost completely airborne

A year ago, virologists kept recommending that we wash our hands often, and we had to do it long enough to be able to sing "Happy birthday to you" twice in a row. We can perhaps put the soap away: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the most important public health control bodies in the United States, have updated the guidelines: the risk of contracting Covid by touching a handle, a book or the seat of a bus is extremely low.

Being able to read the rest of the article might shed more light on the matter.

Seanergy

Refernces to masks in the Dáil Éireann DEBATE on this day last year, April 16th, 2020.

Eamon Ryan:
I have one suggestion to make without in any way trying to second-guess officials or others, which is that the widespread wearing of masks is advisable as we start to loosen restrictions. That seems to be part of the equation in other countries. The German Government is advising that all people wear masks in public places. We should start thinking about that. If we are to open restrictions in two weeks’ time and people begin leaving their homes, we must prepare and the wearing of masks should be a part of our armoury in tackling this horrible virus.

Leo Vardakar:
Many of us will have been following the debate around the wearing of face masks. There is no dispute that people who have symptoms or are sneezing or coughing should wear a mask in order to reduce the chance of passing the infection on to others. There is no debate about the fact that people in healthcare settings caring for patients with Covid-19 should wear masks and in particular circumstances should wear respiratory masks. There are differing opinions and the experts do not agree on whether masks or face coverings should be worn more generally. Some say it is effective, some say it is not effective. Some even say it can be counterproductive, particularly if people are not changing their masks regularly, do not wash them, hang them around their necks or touch them. The jury is totally out on whether it is a good idea for the asymptomatic population to wear masks in public, but the trend certainly seems to be going that way. Whether that is backed up by science is more questionable. As a Government we will be taking the advice of the National Public Health Emergency Team on that question. This week it is once again considering what advice we should give on the wearing of masks. We definitely need to make sure that we do not create a supply problem where masks are concerned. At the moment we have a lot of masks for our healthcare staff and those who need them. We do not want everyone in Ireland to wear 4 million masks a day because we would then have a short- age of masks for our healthcare workers. We must bear in mind all of these different issues, constraints and priorities.

Malcom Noonan:
I also wish to raise the issue of masks. There are now hundreds of groups drawn from Suas, the Irish Countrywomen’s Association, ICA, and other community organisations throughout the country who are making homemade cotton masks for free distribution. The World Health Organization, WHO, and the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control have endorsed the role of masks in reducing infection. Countries such as Taiwan and Vietnam have vastly lower numbers of infections than neighbouring countries, due in some part to the wearing of masks. I am of the view that the wearing of masks could help gradually to ease the restrictions and I ask for clear guidance on this from the Government.

Sparkey84

Irish Stones wrote: »

Found it. It was Saturday, April 10th.

https://www.lastampa.it/topnews/primo-piano/2021/04/10/news/che-fine-ha-fatto-il-lavarsi-le-mani-cantando-happy-birthday-1.40134457

The article is behind a paywall, but the first few lines can still be

Che fine ha fatto il lavarsi le mani cantando Happy Birthday?
La tragica esperienza di quest’anno ha dimostrato che il virus si diffonde quasi interamente nell'aria

Un anno fa i virologi continuavano a raccomandarci di lavarci spesso le mani, anzi di farlo abbastanza a lungo da poter cantare due volte di seguito “Happy birthday to you”. Possiamo forse mettere via il sapone: i Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, i più importanti organismi di controllo sulla sanità pubblica degli Stati Uniti, hanno aggiornato le linee guida: il rischio di contrarre il Covid toccando una maniglia, un libro o il sedile di un autobus è estremamente basso.

===

What happened to washing hands while singing Happy Birthday?
The tragic experience of the past year proved that the virus is almost completely airborne

A year ago, virologists kept recommending that we wash our hands often, and we had to do it long enough to be able to sing "Happy birthday to you" twice in a row. We can perhaps put the soap away: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the most important public health control bodies in the United States, have updated the guidelines: the risk of contracting Covid by touching a handle, a book or the seat of a bus is extremely low.

Being able to read the rest of the article might shed more light on the matter.

are you sure it was april 10th and not april 1st?

Seanergy

xhomelezz wrote: »

These are up for sale, unfortunately app still not available. Thinking about giving it a go

https://www.airpophealth.com/eu/airpop-active-smart-black-yellow

Did you take the plunge?

Seanergy

Just came across Aaron Collins for the first time.

Seanergy

Israel drops outdoor Covid mask order LINK

Israelis went about barefaced today after the order to wear masks outdoors was rescinded in another step towards relative normality thanks to the country's mass-vaccination against Covid-19.

The police-enforced wearing of protective masks outdoors, ordered a year ago for non-exercise activities, was scrapped. But the Health Ministry said the requirement still applied for indoor public spaces and urged citizens to keep masks to hand.

"Being without a mask for the first time in a long time feels weird. But it's a very good weird," Amitai Hallgarten, 19, said while sunning himself at a park. "If I need to be masked indoors to finish with this - I'll do everything I can."

Fandymo

Stanford University study states that masks are "ineffective" and have "devastating health consequences".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987720333028?via%3Dihub

Conclusion
The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.

odyssey06

Fandymo wrote: »

Stanford University study states that masks are "ineffective" and have "devastating health consequences".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987720333028?via%3Dihub

It's not a Stanford University study, it's a document by someone with a connection to Stanford University through a Veteran Affairs clinic run under its auspices.
It is a medical hypothesis (not a study peer-reviewed by peers).

The level of review it received can be appreciated by the fact that it says it provides "prosper information".

Debunked here:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/16/diamond-and-silk/medical-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/

The first two alleged effects on the list, hypoxemia and hypercapnia, have been debunked by fact-checkers. A fact-check by USA Today found that mask wearing does not cause hypoxemia, a below-normal level of oxygen in the blood. PolitiFact rated False a claim that masks decrease oxygen intake.
Lead Stories and USA Today were among fact-checkers that found that hypercapnia — too much carbon dioxide in the blood — is not caused by mask wearing.

Havannah.

What's the long term plan with the masks

I see the UK is trialling events with no masks or SD

Presumably that's the way forward then ?

Will the masks and SD be an emergency measure in future ?

Sparkey84

Fandymo wrote: »

Stanford University study states that masks are "ineffective" and have "devastating health consequences".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987720333028?via%3Dihub

Conclusion
The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.

really really dangerous stuff here and a real problem that it is spreading. that article is opinion and dishonest at best. odessy06 is correct. that BS describes a randomised control trial that proved masks were ineffective, he referenced it as the article number 26 on his list, when you find that article it actually reads

"Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets. Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals"


i am delighted you are looking to articles but i might suggest go for the better quality ones. also to truly have an informed opinion you should read the articles, as many as you can as an open minded reader, then form your opinion.
if you only cherry pick data that you agree with learning can not take place

Irish Stones

Havannah. wrote: »

What's the long term plan with the masks

I see the UK is trialling events with no masks or SD

Presumably that's the way forward then ?

Will the masks and SD be an emergency measure in future ?

I hope I will never ever see a mask again in the future, though I think the reality will be different from what I hope.

Sparkey84

Fandymo wrote: »

Stanford University study states that masks are "ineffective" and have "devastating health consequences".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987720333028?via%3Dihub

Conclusion
The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.

forgot to mention yesterday, it is an absolute disgrace that you try and use the psychological factors as a reason not to wear a mask unless you also factor in the psychological distressed caused by a an anti-masker walking into a shop and putting reasonable people on edge.