To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

ShadowTech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914077#Comment_117914077

Because the risk to the entire population has been dramatically reduced thanks to highly effective vaccines? Or to turn your question around, how is it fair that everyone else has to live with additional restrictions because a minority wish to be more cautious despite being protected by other means?

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914137#Comment_117914137

If risks are reduced to our entire population, why are we introducing a third booster shot?

ShadowTech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914145#Comment_117914145

Because a minority of the population are immunocompromised due to pre-existing conditions or age. The boosters will further stimulate an immune response amongst people who are the most vulnerable thus strengthening their protection. Vaccines and boosters for the high-risk have given us the opportunity to return to normal.

The numbers don’t lie. The positivity rate and hospitalisations are dropping week-on-week thanks to the vaccines. Even amongst the elderly, deaths are a fraction of what they were and we will see that number drop further thanks to the boosters.

So yes, risks are reduced to the entire population.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914137#Comment_117914137

The majority often accept restrictions and requirements in order to protect a minority who may be more vulnerable, this is especially the case with children.

So it is accepted that this can be fair.

And mask mandates in this country have the support of the health authorities, elected government and have significant support in the population. So the premise of your question "because a minority wish" is rejected.

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914430#Comment_117914430

In countries where the mask mandates have been removed, I think you'll find only a minority still wearing them. So to me the majority would seem not to want them and only do so because its the law.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914469#Comment_117914469

You're confusing two different questions - how many people who will continue to wear masks when no longer deemed necessary & do people want to adhere to the public health guidelines deemed necessary at present by the authorities in their jurisdiction. It's not a question of 'wanting them'.

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914601#Comment_117914601

They're not guidelines though, there's legislation for wearing masks in certain situations. As soon as the legislation is removed in a country, only a minority continue to wear masks it would seem.

You made the point mask mandates have "significant support in the population", but in countries where they're no longer mandated, only a minority continue to wear them and therefore don't have significant support.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914622#Comment_117914622

Mask mandates have significant support in the population. As in the use of mask mandates, as a measure, when deemed necessary by the public health authorities.

Again, you are confusing support for "mask mandates" when deemed necessary with actual "wearing of masks".

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914645#Comment_117914645

No idea how you're coming to the conclusion that "mask mandates have significant support in the population". All I see are mostly people wearing them where its the law to do so. The general population didn't vote for mask mandates, the vast majority didn't wear them before they were mandated and I would hazard a guess not many will wear them once they're no longer mandated.

ShadowTech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914430#Comment_117914430

The majority accept restrictions to protect a minority only so far as the requirement is deemed proportional and necessary. This is arguably no longer the case following wide-spread vaccination. As for the majority wanting to continue with this restriction, as @Spudman_20000 said above, in places where mask mandates have been lifted most people return to normal.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914666#Comment_117914666

It's two different things you are conflating and confusing.

Actual wearing of a mask.

Support for mask mandates as a measure when deemed necessary.

Did the majority before or after adhere to the 5km rule, or only during its operation?

Or any of the other lockdown measures, such as not going to pubs, restaurants?

Does that mean there wasn't support for the measure at the time it was deemed necessary?

Nope.

Mask mandates, as a public health measure, has significant public support.

At a point, the public health authorities may no longer deem it necessary, it will no longer be mandated and less people will wear masks.

That can't be ret-conned into, they didn't think it was necessary and didn't support mask mandate as a public health measure.

The majority view of the people support the idea that public health authorities make these calls, established in poll after poll.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914683#Comment_117914683

Yes, arguably, masks aren't needed. I think they are given our case count and in specific settings.

You have outlined your (reasonable) reasons why you think they are not.

The majority in this country accepts that it's the public health authorities decision to make the call as whether the requirement continues to be warranted, that they are the best placed authority to decide what's proportional and necessary along with elected government.

Maybe the authorities are over cautious, under cautious, misread the data... But is it unfair that they make the call? No, I don't see that.

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915179#Comment_117915179

We'll agree to disagree. You still make it sound like people had a choice whether to wear them or not, when in fact it is the law. It's you that's conflating being required by law to wear them and public support of them. People didn't accept restrictions, they were imposed on people.

God speed the day that they're no longer mandated, so we can get clearly identify the loons still trying to normalise mask wearing.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915401#Comment_117915401

Poll after poll showed public support for mask mandates and of the role of public health authorities in determining what restrictions were appropriate.

At no point did I conflate the two and repeat the confusion you introduced.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-times-poll-public-split-on-pace-of-lifting-covid-19-restrictions-1.4596630

Irish Aris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915469#Comment_117915469

I was thinking of leaving a comment and your above post with the June article is a good pass, Odyssey :)

I think the actual support for masks has been somewhat reduced in the last month or so after the great success of the vaccination program. People obviously will continue observing the requirement to wear a mask in specific indoors settings, but increasingly see it as nuisance.

I also think that the attitude is becoming one of personal judgment: I have seen people in pretty much empty public transport (by empty I mean less than 5 people in the bus) where the mask goes on the chin while seated. I actually had an "embarrassing" incident last month on the Luas where I forgot to put on my mask - I was holding it in my hand in a sealed plastic bag but somehow got distracted and forgot to put it on. Granted it was late on a school night and the luas wasn't busy at all, but no other passenger bothered to tell me the obvious - I was probably lucky that no security caught me as I guess I would have to pay a fine.

In general I think people are confident enough that the vaccine offers protection and they will seek any opportunity to bend the rules

ShadowTech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915307#Comment_117915307

I generally agree with your post. I think most people will adhere to any legal requirement resulting from public health advice regardless of their own opinions. Where I disagree somewhat is that I don’t believe it should be open-ended at this stage. The public health officials and Government can and have provided metrics by which to decide if most restrictions can be lifted, including masks in places like pubs, clubs, theatres, etc. Even on this thread we are expected to back up our claims and opinions with facts and reason; I’d hold those in charge to the same metric and expect them to specify the basis for continuing a restriction and explain under what circumstances they would lift it.

Seanergy

- Update as of this morning:

Advice to the National Public Health Emergency Team: Reduction of the minimum age for the application of mask wearing requirements and recommendations.

https://www.hiqa.ie/reports-and-publications/health-technology-assessment/reducing-minimum-age-mask-wearing

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915401#Comment_117915401

God speed the day that they're no longer mandated, so we can get clearly identify the loons still trying to normalise mask wearing.

Grow up will ya and stop being such a bully.

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914683#Comment_117914683

As for the majority wanting to continue with this restriction

Masks are not a restriction and should not be labeled as such.

PsychoPete

I'm seeing more and more people not bothering with masks in shops etc. Plenty of retail shops really don't care if your wearing one or not. Seems people are going back to taking control, fair play to them

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914022#Comment_117914022

That was my big hope. That we couldnt possible arrive at the kind of mental gymnastics required to keep masks going somehow once we're back pubbing and clubbing and such. But sure enough we managed to do just that.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916395#Comment_117916395

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for wearing face masks those documents under the links.

Evidence regarding the effectiveness of face masks in reducing transmission of SARS-CoV-2, particularly among children

...

There is currently little further clarity regarding the science underlying the effectiveness of face masks, with few significant updates since the meeting of the EAG on 6 April 2021. Observational and mechanistic evidence continues to point towards a beneficial effect, though the quantification of this effect remains highly challenging.

...suggested that the real effect of face masks is likely to lie between that observed in the one randomised controlled trial published on this topic in the context of COVID-19 (‘DANMASK-19’), and the many corresponding observational studies published, several of which were previously presented to the EAG.

...noted that several studies have found that mask mandates in schools have been associated with lower incidence of COVID-19, but that the independent effect of mask use is difficult to identify.

...Two primary studies...were presented. ... These showed a lower risk of infections, within the school, and onward to the household, where masks were worn by students, though these decreases were not statistically significant in either case.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917327#Comment_117917327

Lol, nice one. If they are not a restriction what are they then? Please tell.

ShadowTech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917538#Comment_117917538

Good luck but I think you’re hitting your head against a brick wall. Anyone arguing that a measure enforced upon the population is not a restriction on their normal life is just being disingenuous.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917722#Comment_117917722

Is wearing a seatbelt a restriction? Or a responsibility? Im not going to get drawn into the semantics of it.

But claiming masks in shops/buses or seatbelts or similar requirements as a restriction on someones 'normal life' in terms of impact is ludicrous.

We had such restrictions which did affect normal life eg 5km travel, businesses closed.

ShadowTech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918094#Comment_117918094

Firstly, comparing masks to seatbelts is trotted out a lot but it’s a false comparison for a number of reasons. The most obvious being that a mask interferes with a number of normal social activities including muffling verbal communication; a seatbelt does not. A seatbelt is intended for a single function that does not interfere with, nor bleed into other activities. What’s more, if we’re going to continue with this analogy, once our cars have inertial dampeners (highly effective vaccines) we should revisit the legal requirement for other measures.

To your second point that it is “ludicrous” to say that a mask is a restriction on someone’s normal life, this is just patently false. By comparing a mask mandate to distance restrictions and business closures you have not shown that a mask mandate is not a restriction, you have simply compared it to other restrictions which you find more onerous. I mean, by this logic it’s not a restriction to have capacity limits and 2 meter distance requirements indefinitely because it doesn’t stop you from going shopping. All of these things are restrictions on normal behaviour. Some restrictions effect businesses and others, like the mask mandate, effect individuals. From the content of your posts I infer that masks don’t bother you or discourage you from spending time in settings where they’re required; many feel differently.

There is a huge difference between thinking a restriction should remain in place and claiming it’s not a restriction at all. Arguing that a legally binding mandate brought in as part of a suite of other restrictions with the purpose of curtailing the spread of infection during the height of the pandemic is not a restriction is disingenuous.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918299#Comment_117918299

A mask is intended for a single function too. So does that make your seatbelt analogy "patently false".

It was normal behaviour for people not to wear a seat belt even when the car had a seat belt, until it became legally required.

Seatbelt and child car seat laws restrict the ability of people to drive their car without a seatbelt, or who they can provide transport to. Is that a restriction? Or a responsibility? Why does it matter?

Are fire safety laws which limit the capacity of premises a legal 'restriction'? Or a legal 'responsibility'?

Whether we want to specifically label it as a legal restriction or a legal responsibility or an obligation at the end of the day is neither here nor there. See, two can play at this semantic game and it is a dead end argument.

But I am not being disingenuous. It's my genuine opinion that a mask is not a restriction on people's "normal lives". It does not materially affect the ability of people to conduct their "normal lives", anymore than loud music\noise in a shop or bus would. By comparing it to 5km limit, closing of businesses I have shown have "normal life" was affected. Shops & customers can carry on their business\shopping with capacity limits and distancing. Normal life is not affected by a mask. Therefore I reject fundamentally that claim.

Spudman_20000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918432#Comment_117918432

As @ShadowTect above explains, its still a poor comparison. And how about retail, hospitality staff, secondary school kids and teachers etc. that have to wear masks for their entire day? That's not a restriction on their day-to-day life, no?

And on the subject of seatbelts, at least the data is a hell of a lot more convincing on saving lives than masks.

I'll say it again, people need to stop trying to normalise mask wearing.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918444#Comment_117918444

No, they are still going about their business.

I haven't said it's normal. If people find it a burden, maybe a "pain in the ***", and the people who wear them for long periods may feel that and it's understandable.

But they are still working, studying, teaching.

The data on seat belts is established now, in the first 'early adopter' countries that mandated them? Less so. And it took a long time for enough data to be gathered to gain acceptance globally.

We banned passive smoking in pubs, buses and shops based on epidemologic data, much harder there to quantify the risks \ establish the benefits to those exposed via secondhand smoke just via their workplace.

Space Dog

Has this been posted yet? I really don't know how to use the search function properly anymore.

A man in Germany shot a clerk in a petrol station after being asked to wear a mask.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/german-police-man-arrested-over-killing-in-row-over-mask/2021/09/21/7c641412-1aa5-11ec-bea8-308ea134594f_story.html