To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003657#Comment_118003657

There have been numerous studies that show the effectiveness of mask wearing. One by the University of California Berkley carried out from Nov. 2020 - April 2021 involving 341,126 adults in 600 villages in rural Bangladesh where Covid infections fell by 35% for those 60 and older, by 23% for those aged 50 -60, and by 12% overall from wearing face masks.

The most recent studies listed on the thread are real world studies of mask mandates and mask roll out programmes in:

* Australian cities https://www.burnet.edu.au/news/1473_world_first_study_shows_effectiveness_of_masks_in_preventing_covid_transmission

* Bangladeshi villages https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y

* Arizona schools https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-schools-mask-mandates-outbreaks-cdc/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003738#Comment_118003738

Example 1: A doctor arrives to work to do surgery. He puts on fresh scrubs. Washes his hands thoroughly and sanitizes them. Puts on fresh PPE, gloves and a mask etc and carries out the surgery.

Result: The mask and other measures are effective in this situation.

Example 2: Joe Bloggs and his mate are going shopping together. They meet up and walk to the shopping centre. Outside they both realize that they'll need to wear a mask. They search their pockets and pull out their disposable masks. Stick it on. Go to McDonalds. Take the mask off for the duration of their meal. Lash it back on while leaving the shopping centre. Pull it off outside. Head to the pub for a pint. Stick it back on while you order your pints. Take it off while sitting down for an hour or so over a few pints.

Result: The mask is nothing more than compliance and good optics.

Now what example do you think the studies are based on?

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003808#Comment_118003808

Going with your second example. What part of it do you not understand? The mask is doing exactly what it's meant to be doing. Covering the mouth and nose holes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003911#Comment_118003911

Its covering the nose and mouth holes while you briefly walk by people but not while you are sitting in a room full of people eating and drinking.

Therefore, masks in the community are useless when you factor in human nature. (The need to eat, drink etc)

Its simple stuff.

Perhaps if we all wore air tight masks and fresh PPE every time we encountered a person things would be different.

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004023#Comment_118004023

I'm glad you understand. Yes, briefly walking past someone can spread covid. You have a choice to eat out and that is your risk. But passing someone in a shop, you don't know how vulnerable they are.

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001371#Comment_118001371

You've never read any of my posts in the Covid hand-washing, formite or DIY HEPA filter threads. What none of those threads exist, not even hand washing, what sort of place is this?

Maybe if there was a sub thread to the Pandemic Influenza Expert Group(PIEG) in the "general Covid" arena I might post as I've read everything(not just masks) the PIEG has been involved in, published and were influenced by since Micheál Martin set them up in 2000.

I read and contribute, thankfully plenty of excellent brains a lot more powerful than my own constantly dropping in thread to keep it from going to the dogs.

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003683#Comment_118003683

"5M people" "Its true though"

If your gong to be rounding mask wearing numbers off so roughly, your number should stand at 4M, as 5M would include children U13 and the 10% who are not comlying.

Sconsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003657#Comment_118003657

Yeah you must be right, the expert studies are wrong, you clearly know more then the people that have dedicated their lives to the study of these type of things.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004069#Comment_118004069

Well there was plenty of studies done that suggested you needed to be around someone Covid positive for a reasonable amount of time and distance before you were likely to catch it. Guess you didn't like those studies.

But also, you have proven my point anyways. Masks are not working as lots of activities require you to not wear a mask and people have chosen to continue doing those activities.

Honest question, do you wear a mask at home?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004290#Comment_118004290

There is also plenty of studies suggesting they are of little value. Even our ultra conservative NPHET were reluctant to introduce them.

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004322#Comment_118004322

I guess you never updated yourself with how quickly Delta spreads. It spreads in 15 seconds.

There's also other preventative measures in place for those other activities you speak off. Windows and doors has to be open and let in fresh air.

Being considerate of others and wearing a mask is not living in fear. This needs to stop.

Sconsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004336#Comment_118004336

Sweet-Jesus not this again, you are only highlighting how little you know with that statement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004372#Comment_118004372

A minute ago you said that you can catch Covid walking by someone. Now its 15 seconds. It certainly doesn't take 15 seconds to walk by a person.

I never said that wearing a mask is living in fear. I just said that they don't work in the community.

Perhaps they would if we all wore them all day long including at home and had staggered eating times so nobody was ever mask-less around each other.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004336#Comment_118004336

They were reluctant to introduce them because:

(1) A shortage of masks

(2) The early Chinese data played down the role of person to person transmission out of fear of restrictions being placed on China

So welcome to 2021 where every major health authority in the world advocated their use in public settings for Covid.

I have linked numerous recent (i.e. so covid based not other respiratory disease) showing their effectiveness at reducing cases and transmission in a variety of real world settings.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003808#Comment_118003808

So your in agreement that masks work then. You just have an issue with people being able to eat and drink in shared public spaces.

If we decided to completely shut down all pubs and restaurants then you'd agree that masks work. Except that's not a feasible scenario, so we are instead left with the situation that seems odd to the people who are deliberately trying not to understand, where society has to accept that some risks (eating and drinking in public whilst unmasked) have to be allowed to take place whilst we still ask people to wear a mask in other situations.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004477#Comment_118004477

What is it that renders a mask useless in all situations, just because you happened to take it off for a different situation?

Does the mask work when it is being worn? Or are you claiming that the mask is somehow transmitting Covid19 when queueing to buy your groceries because you took it off half an hour before when you were eating your lunch?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004322#Comment_118004322

Perhaps you could link some of those studies on covid that show you can't be infected with less time \ greater distance than that?

The 15 minutes and 2 metres \ 6 feet are guidelines. You can be infected with less exposure than that and at greater distance, depending on air flow.

As for the rest of your post, it's completely illogical nonsense. It's not even anti mask it is just so wrong headed. It's like saying seat belt don't work cos you could be knocked down getting out of your car.

https://theconversation.com/an-epidemiologist-explains-the-new-cdc-guidance-on-15-minutes-of-exposure-and-what-it-means-for-you-148707

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004623#Comment_118004623

I would agree that they work in certain settings. In a hospital surgery were a doctor has access to industry standard soaps, sanitizers, gloves, masks and only has to wear them for a certain amount of time. Of course that is effective.

But in every day life all I see is people wearing disposable masks incorrectly that are god knows how many days old and then removing once they are no longer in a mandatory area.

Its not difficult for me to see why they haven't led to a reduction in cases. Perhaps if we all wore a fresh mask all day every day including at home and had staggered eating times we'd see a reduction of case numbers.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004775#Comment_118004775

So masks only work if you are wearing gloves and are using a certain type of soap?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004881#Comment_118004881

They don't work at all because people don't wear them all the time - including at home. They don't work in public places because people take them off to eat. But you need to wear one every day including at home. Nothing works unless you go around in a virtual hazmat suit all the time. So how are you supposed to eat? This is the twisted 'logic' used to justify opposition to masks, no point continuing further down the rabbit hole.

Its just a rehash of the masks only work as ppe if used perfectly argument otherwise they will infect you ... ignoring all the studies on their use as barriers. Over-emphasis on a secondary mode of transmission (fomite surfaces) to discredit a defence against the main way covid transmits - masks blocking respiratory droplets.

It's thoroughly discredited nonsense as evidenced by the studies linked above from multiple locations and settings the poster keep ignoring.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118005591#Comment_118005591

They have made no difference to case numbers which was the whole reason for the mandate.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118005917#Comment_118005917

Statement utterly without foundation.

Its like saying brakes dont work cos cars still crash sometime.

I note once again you ignore the real world studies you asked for showing the effect of masks in reducing cases.

Which together with case studies and lab studies showing how they filter droplets forms the basis for why every major health authority recommended them - and why it is reasonable to conclude our cases would be higher without them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006154#Comment_118006154

UK got rid of their mask mandate more than 2 months ago now with the exception of public transport. Surely we should have noticed a very significant increase in cases?

Same with Denmark. Their cases actually dropped.

Ireland introduced a mask mandate last August when we had fairly low case numbers. We then spent the majority of October- June in lockdown.

If masks were making such a huge difference, it would be easy to see from the data. But it’s not.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006420#Comment_118006420

Here we are with the shifting goal posts and the retconning.

You have nothing no studies no logic just throwing up more smoke screens when your previous one is challenged.

What else was happening in the UK and Denmark in the run up to lifting restrictions? You know this yet you pretend not to to make a disingenuous argument that fools no one.

Masks will be one of the first measures the UK authorities will reach for if the cases continue to rise and risk getting out of control.

What else happened in Ireland over that summer? End of lockdown? Summer holidays in Spain? Schools going back?

You think we dont see through your smokescreens and someone coming onto the thread saying masks wont work unless everyone wears them at home! Come off it. Do you still want to stand over that nonsense or was it just another temporary smokescreen tactic like the rest?

From masks dont work for the general public its now that the dont make a huge difference. Eg A 10 percent reduction in cases as attested below isnt huge but why should only 'huge' measures be adopted? Especially considering their low cost.

I once again refer you to the real world studies you asked for showing the effect of masks reducing cases which you refuse to engage with. Its laughable at this stage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006500#Comment_118006500

You can link as many expert studies as you want and it won’t change the fact that the data doesn’t reflect that masks have had an impact on case numbers.

If they were so effective, it would be easy to see.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006589#Comment_118006589

You came on saying oh they only work for doctors, wheres the real world studies.

Real world studies provided showing the impact masks have in reducing cases.

Now you shift to... I dont care about real world studies when your bluff is called.

From masks dont work its now a strawman argument of 'if they were so effective' ... so now its masks work but quibling as to how much. The premise of that strawman argument is rejected because why must only huge benefits be considered. Such logic would reject suites of measures which individually provide small to medium benefits and together suppress the virus spread.

Masks reduce transmission. Quantifying how much is difficult given the difficulty of isolating one measure among others. That is what the studies have tried to do and if we take the Bangladeshi one it showed at least a 10 percent case reduction with a tripling in mask use to 40+ percent.

We could expect more impact from further increases in mask use eg from mask mandates.

In my opinion and that of every major health authority such benefits - which is a conservative estimate of their effectiveness - justified their use as a tool in the pandemic.

Seanergy

@jacdaniel2014

I just said that they don't work in the community.

They have made no difference to case numbers which was the whole reason for the mandate.

I would agree that they work in certain settings. In a hospital surgery were a doctor has access to industry standard soaps, sanitizers, gloves, masks and only has to wear them for a certain amount of time. Of course that is effective.

What about in nursing homes? Would you consider them communities? Because when masks were mandated for ALL staff(not just doctors) in LTRC it made a difference, cases went down, super fast. There were no other changes to the LTRC environment over that period that could have influenced the cases to drop so fast. Here is real Irish data. How do you interpret it?

There are 2 cliff drops in this graph, one that happens at the end of March(stay at home order commenced 27th March, being the first two weeks we did in lockdown maskless when the majority of heads played by the rules and weren't acting risky. The second cliff drop happens at the end of April when the mask mandate began for all HCW's and staff in LTRC.

The mask madate drop at the end of April is possibly steeper. It's very close. Even though the Community cases were falling from the 28/29 March look at the rise in cases in HCW's, who you guessed it right, were maskless.

Your probably going to say they had magic soap and if you are please provide "data that reflects" fomite transmission or I'd settle for real world studies at this stage.

The staff were not doctors, masks were foreign to nearly all staff, they wore on avreage 3 SM's a shift, but they all acted in unison.

Unlike the LTRC scenario, when we had masks introduced, later in the summer, we also had restrictions loosened, so our data is harder to see. Also at that stage we were no longer working in unison. The average Joe did not have the motivation from the experience of the "hotbox" of a LTRC or a Hospital setting that the HCW's and other staff had.

We can only work with the data we have and when is enough data enough? At some point we need to put data aside and act. The tone i'm getting off your posts is that you want Irish data but then again not really because you would prefer to just dish masks and surrender to the virus, is this right, have you quit or are you close to quitting on masks or did I misread your tone? Anyway, can you provide me with better Irish data that masks do not work?

NeVeR

Has there been any indication as to when mask-wearing will be optional and not mandatory in shops/transport etc?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118007569#Comment_118007569

Not so far and transport may remain throughout the winter anyway. At a guess they probably also have an eye on the Christmas shopping period and may keep it there too.

Seanergy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/12/parents-sue-wisconsin-schools-covid-masks

When Shannon Jensen and Gina Kildahl sent their children back to their Wisconsin schools during the last school year, everyone had to wear masks. But when school resumed this fall, that was not the case — even as health experts warned that masks were necessary to keep a new highly contagious coronavirus variant from sweeping through classrooms.

Jensen and Kildahl both sent their sons to their elementary schools in masks anyway. Jensen’s son attends Rose Glen Elementary School in Waukesha, outside Milwaukee. Kildahl’s son goes to school about 200 miles away at Fall Creek Elementary, between Green Bay and Minneapolis.

Just weeks into the new school year, both boys tested positive for the coronavirus. Lawsuits filed this month in two Wisconsin federal courts blame what they describe as the schools’ lax policies on masks, quarantining and contact tracing.

Both the boards of education for the School District of Waukesha and the School District of Fall Creek had voted to end many of the coronavirus mitigation policies that had been in place last year, according to the two lawsuits. That included getting rid of universal mask requirements.

The moves defied strategies recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, the lawsuits add. Jensen’s lawsuit was filed in a federal court in eastern Wisconsin on Oct. 6. Kildahl’s lawsuit was filed on Monday in Wisconsin’s western district court.

Because classes were held without adequate safety measures, Jensen’s lawsuit alleges, coronavirus cases spread within the district’s schools. The school district and its board are “knowingly, needlessly, unreasonably, and recklessly exposing the public to Covid-19 … endangering public health,” her lawsuit adds.

Both lawsuits were funded by the Minocqua Brewing Company super PAC, based in northern Wisconsin. The committee is led by Kirk Bangstad, who ran for the Wisconsin State Assembly last year as a Democrat against Rob Swearingen, the Republican incumbent. Bangstad, who was forced to shut down his brewpub during the coronavirus pandemic, has been critical of his state’s handling of the health crisis.

He said he has been disheartened to see Wisconsin school board meetings flooded with anti-mask protesters, whom he called “a very loud and obnoxious minority.” When he asked on his podcast and brewery’s Facebook page whether parents were concerned that dropping safety policies would harm their children, Bangstad said he received hundreds of responses.

“We’re hoping to do a class-action suit against all school boards in Wisconsin that aren’t providing the CDC-recommended mitigations for students,” he told The Washington Post on Monday night. The goal, Bangstad added, is to hold “to account these school boards who are anti-science and anti-mask.”

Officials representing both schools declined to comment on the lawsuits. Attorney Frederick Melms, who is representing Jensen and Kildahl, told The Post it is dangerous when schools allow students to opt out of wearing masks.

“We’re hoping to get a judge that [will] make them do the right thing,” Melms said. “It’s unfortunate that it came to this.”

Whether children should be required to wear masks in schools has become a flash point across the United States as the global pandemic nears its third year. Many schools halted in-person learning at the start of the pandemic, but health officials said it was important to get students back into classrooms this year — with the right protections in place.

Covid cases in kids are soaring. In Tennessee, most remain unmasked and unvaccinated.

CDC officials said last month that pediatric coronavirus cases and school outbreaks were lower in places where masks were required in the classroom. But the issue continues to divide communities, including in Wisconsin, where school board meetings have turned volatile as members debate whether children should have to wear face coverings. Children younger than 12 are not yet eligible to receive the coronavirus vaccines, which have been proved to protect people from covid-related hospitalizations and deaths.

Jensen and Kildahl both say in their lawsuits that unmasked students exposed their sons to the coronavirus. Jensen’s son tested positive on Sept. 19 — less than three weeks into the new school year. Kildahl’s son tested positive on Sept. 27, less than four weeks after school started.

Both children missed several days of school after testing positive for the virus.

Jensen also alleges in her lawsuit that she was notified a day after her son tested positive that another student in his class had covid-19. Even though he had been exposed, school officials said at the time that quarantining was optional.

“Your child may continue to attend school and participate in extracurricular activities,” a Sept. 20 notification from the school stated.

Within days, Jensen said she learned that four children in her son’s class had the virus.

“It appeared there was an outbreak in the classroom and a substantial delay in notifications going out to the parents,” the lawsuit says. “There was no actual contact tracing being done in the school, just blanket informing parents when a child in the class had tested positive, usually several days after.”

Those failures, her lawsuit alleges, “needlessly and recklessly placed Wisconsin school children and their communities at risk of serious illness and death.” Without knowing her son might have covid, the lawsuit adds, Jensen let him attend a Cub Scout camp, church, a festival, community parade and car show, “potentially exposing hundreds of local citizens.”

Protesters shut down a Utah school board meeting by yelling, ‘No more masks!’ Now 11 of them face charges.

Jensen and Kildahl’s attorney said his clients launched this effort not just to make their own districts safer, but also those across their state.

“These school districts just have decided to bury their head in the sand without any real sort of rationale behind it,” Melms said. “They just are ignoring the guidance from the health department, from the CDC, from the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction. It’s really reckless.”