To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408301#Comment_118408301

If its so severe why are ICU numbers stable? Why are there several studies from all over the world proving it is more mild?

Yes, I’m sure they do. But in the real world they make no difference because they aren’t worn 24/7.

20,000 cases. Clearly they are not effective

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408306#Comment_118408306

Oh come on, another muppet trying to make money is not 'severe distress' exemption.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408373#Comment_118408373

More transmissible means more cases. Even if milder that still puts people into hospital and eventually ICU. Someone in hospital is not a mild case. You know this already but pretend not to.

More transmissible has compound effect. Milder impact does not.

So if its so mild to not be a concern... how is it putting more people into hospital?

Quoting a case number and saying masks dont work isnt any kind of argument worth a response.

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408214#Comment_118408214

Not this again.

Off course masks don't work in the likes of pubs and restaurants with people eating and drinking.

People going around with noses hanging out and wearing them on their chins.

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118407121#Comment_118407121

Suprised he didn't stick the paw out for compo from the 'claustrophobia incident' that he suffered 20 years previously that had been triggered by the requirement to wear a face covering.

Did his wife who also refused to wear a facemask at the same shop also suffer in this 'claustrophobia incident' from 20 years ago?

If your going to go to court to prove something, bring evidence and expect the judge to question it.

Judge was too soft, should have opened up his can of 'claustrophobia incident' from 20 years ago all over the courtroom.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408677#Comment_118408677

Which is strangely enough exactly why we were told they wouldn't work.

Masks working or not working has many facets. The real world is usually a little more complex than 'I saw a computer simulation of an aerosol cloud reduced by a mask. They gotta be working, it's not rocket science'.

This all just became ok to admit this week. Mass testing is not appropriate. Cloth masks don’t work. Shutting down can destroy society. Hospitalisation numbers are misleading.

Last week we were all conspiracy nuts spreading misinformation.

It really is something to watch.

https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1475829439477030914?s=20

odyssey06

Your post is bit misleading given that the clip you linked to is not relevant to the majority of your post.

This is Dr Wen on masks earlier in the pandemic... will need more than a soundbite to explain what changed:

Quality of mask matters a lot. I would not advise using a cloth face covering, as it doesn't provide much protection to the wearer. (It does help to reduce the amount of respiratory droplets that are expelled, so if others are wearing a cloth mask, it's better than if they wear nothing.) If you are in indoor settings with people of unknown vaccination status (i.e. on public transport), you should be wearing at least a 3-ply surgical mask. Consider putting a cloth mask on top to provide a snugger fit--but don't wear the cloth covering alone. In very high-risk settings, or if you are particularly vulnerable (i.e. you have immunocompromise), you should be wearing an N95 or KN95 mask.

CalamariFritti

One can barely breathe through a kn95. Good luck wearing them for hours.

Also 'unknown vaccination status' lol. Cos since we all got vaccinated spread basically stopped.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418809#Comment_118418809

Strawman is strong here.

There are studies showing reduction in infectiousness for vaccinated v previous variants. Lower viral load can also affect severity of infection. Masks also reduce viral load.

So yes all things being equal better to be around vaccinated people. Or masked people v unmasked. Or surgical or better masks v cloth masks.

Omicron is a novel highly infectious variant but the previous studies show that masks and vaccines reduce viral load and so may still be reducing cases and severity due to them.

In other words - they do not work. Unless we were all to be sedated, locked in wooden boxes permanently and fed by robots then they might work.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421013#Comment_118421013

Would you bother covering your mouth or looking away before you were to cough or sneeze if you were talking face to face with someone?

Because covering your cough is not a 100% guaranteed foolproof method to stop the other person from catching it from you. in other words (as per your definition) it does not work.

Likewise condoms are not 100% effective at preventing STIs or pregnancy. Hence they do not work and you should never bother with them. Am I doing it right?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408327#Comment_118408327

Actually, not quite. The first time she was jailed for contempt of court. The second time she was jailed for breach of her bail conditions.

Sorry but I don’t accept the analogy. When used correctly the instrument you mentioned works as intended almost all of the time. Likewise with masks, when used correctly in the appropriate setting they might work, but those conditions are almost impossible to replicate in the real world unless we were all to be sedated, locked in wooden boxes and fed by robots.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421113#Comment_118421113

So you'd ignorantly cough straight into someone's face without making any effort to stop yourself from doing so? Would you care at all if someone did the same to you?

We cannot base public health policy on certain individuals' own incapacity to understand and learn how to wear a mask properly

Most people cover their mouth and nose when they sneeze and cough out of manners and politeness not because they are mandated to do so out of government decree and coercion under threat of criminal prosecution as noted above. These type of conventions are built up over decades if not centuries. We may get to the stage where it is considered a social norm to wear a face mask but I don’t think society is at that stage yet considering there is a sizeable minority who object to wearing face masks for various reasons not least because the official reason for wearing them appears to have little to no benefit not to mention that public health officials themselves have flip flopped on their effectiveness.

CalamariFritti

Mask wearing as social norm. Would you think thats something to aspire to?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421013#Comment_118421013

Maybe you should tell your robot to lay off the sedation? You might make more sense.

They work in American K12 schools, Bangladeshi villages, Australian cities, real world case studies cited on this thread.

They worked in tracked case studies of infected airline passengers, hairdressers.

People who say masks don't work to block droplets but think sneezing into your elbow does need to think about that. Maybe do a study for comparison.

The authorities didn't flip flop on effectiveness. They changed perspective on them from protection to barriers & also revised the importance of fomite transmission. The initial information from China suggested this could be a big driver of transmission. Would you prefer they stuck with incomplete or even incorrect initial advice even in the face of new and contrary data?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421363#Comment_118421363

It shouldn't be a social norm to be on a bus or shop coughing spluttering away in winter without a mask.

CalamariFritti

You dont need a mask to not be coughing/spluttering around as you call it. And tbh I've never seen this as an issue before. The thing that worked before masks - basic courtesy - seems to work just fine.

Tbh I was never fundamentally opposed to masks. Its just whatever miniscule reduction they actually bring doesnt seem worth it to me.

And most importantly I always saw the problem with people like you who propose 'the creep' into normality. I always knew people like you were going to be there and they were going to be vocal. And next ten years down the road we're still running around with those horrible things in our faces. History has taught me its much easier to mandate a thing than to get rid.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421688#Comment_118421688

Didn't work on all the packed commuter buses I encountered it pre-pandemic.

Sometimes people are standing and may not be able to take 'suppression' action in a hurry.

Some people are just woefully lacking in hygiene, and I'm being polite there.

Haven't you criticised masks in the past because people handle them, and they don't block all of the droplets? Yet you advocate tissues and armpits instead? Which necessitate handling and are even leakier? Doesn't add up.

CalamariFritti

I just hate the fkn things and I know they are 90% theatre and 10% effective (at best). And then there is the normality creep brigade. So I just hate the things.

And yes basic courtesy works. I spent the first 30 years of my life in a city with massive public transport, tubes, trams, whatnot. I can count the number of times when I felt somewhat too close to a 'splutter' over the thirty years on one hand.

If the studies and The Science™ was so conclusive, we wouldn’t be citing a “study” of two men and a dog in the back of a barber shop as evidence of their effectiveness. If the evidence was so overwhelming, lockdown maximalists would be waving around their “peer reviewed” randomised control trials to prove their effectiveness.

Potential-Monke

Socialising without masks has increased. 20000 cases. So masks are ineffective... That's some serious logic right there!

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423647#Comment_118423647

You'll have to explain how you conduct an ethical randomised controlled trial for the barrier effects of mask wearing in the real world. Of course, you won't be able to. Just as you are incapable of challenging any of the lab studies, case studies and real world epidemiological comparitive data analysis which back up the effectiveness of masks.

That just reads like a gish gallop of random words in an attempt to try and sound intelligent.

If the case for masks was so overwhelming, we wouldn't be citing individual "studies" of a hairdressers salon where the participants were two pensioners and a spinster...

Potential-Monke

Guess Asian countries have been doing it wrong for just over 100 years then. Imagine masks not working but people still wearing them for over 100 years... They must be mad over there...

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423982#Comment_118423982

No attempt made to challenge the cited studies, or explain how the RCT could be run, despite expecting one.

That is a gish gallop alright.

"Two pensioners and a spinster."

"Sedated, locked in wooden boxes and fed by robots."

What bizarre phrases will you throw out next to conceal the paucity of evidence you present?

Those comments are self defeating. Unless everyone on here has a md or phd in their area, why should we listen to anyone. We could all throw peer-reviewed studies that we don’t really understand at each other, and they would all miss the mark because none of us on here are qualified to understand them. By all means wear a mask if it makes you feel safer but don't mistake it for what it is (given the ineffectiveness of many of them - whether it be the mask itself or how it's being used) - a placebo, a scientific rabbits foot. As it’s not required in most scenarios you still are exposed to the possibility of contracting the virus anyway, unless you "mask up" full time while locked in a wooden box and fed by robots.

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425909#Comment_118425909

What is it do you not understand?

The virus leaves and spreads through the mouth and nose. So you cover the mouth and nose to prevent transmission.