To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118426167#Comment_118426167

I’ve just nominated you for the noble prize. If only someone had come up with that idea 100 years ago and prevented millions of people from dying from influenza every year. Cover your mouth and nose, who would have known…

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118426294#Comment_118426294

Do you see doctors, dentists and other medical personnel when you need to? Do you take prescribed medicine when needed? I'm sure you do, so you trust science to see doctors but don't trust science when asked to cover your hole?

Do you follow all public health advice so rigorously? Drink alcohol? Smoke? Exercise daily? Eat healthily? Risky behaviour? If not why not, surely you listen to your doctor and follow the science?

fun loving criminal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118428254#Comment_118428254

None of that impacts others, well except for smoking which I don't do.

Potential-Monke

You can't teach the selfish that masks are for protecting others, not themselves. They just won't listen.

CalamariFritti

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59895934

It includes the results of a study in 123 schools in England which used masks and compared that to others that did not during the Delta wave of Covid. The UK is currently experiencing the spread of an even more infectious variant - Omicron - but there is not enough data yet on this one and masks. 

Schools where face coverings were used in October 2021 saw a reduction two to three weeks later in Covid absences from 5.3% to 3% - a drop of 2.3 percentage points.

In schools which did not use face coverings absences fell from 5.3% to 3.6% - a fall of 1.7 percentage points.

Difference of 0.6% percentage points. Yay! Its not rocket science.

I suppose someone will be here along shortly telling me thats in fact nearly a 50% reduction. 😀

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429502#Comment_118429502

Alcohol, smokers and obesity have a massive impact on the rest of society particularly on our health services. We should mandate exercise instead of face masks.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429523#Comment_118429523

Are we STILL pushing this line?

Most of the population has been at least double vaccinated (the ACTUALLY vulnerable being the first to get the third dose, and over 2 million triple vaccinated at recent count), and the variant current circulating is basically a dose of the sniffles for the majority who get it (outliers notwithstanding)

Who are you protecting?

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435744#Comment_118435744

Everyone, including you. Why can't you just wear it? Even a 0.01% decrease is a decrease. Covid is still around, it is still killing people. But it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people are still too selfish and ignorant to wear a mask in public settings. As I said above, there's no talking to these people. So I'll leave it there, you're obviously one of these people. G'luck.

CalamariFritti

Because at 0.1% its not a decrease its just statistical noise and an extremely low level of it at that. Or even at 1% or at 10%. At those kinds of low numbers you probably have periods where the unmasked control group is actually doing better.

I'd say you'd have to observe consistently a reduction of at least 30% to speak about any kind of conclusiveness when observing real world data - data outside a very strict testbed. Because out there in the real world there is just too much else going on with restrictions on and off, vaccinations, variants, seasons whatnot.

So unless that can be demonstrated - and every serious attempt at that was unsuccessful IMO - its mostly if not entirely theatre. And at that its hardly beyond criticism. I guess some people are just less happy to simply do what they're told when it doesn't make sense.

And ultimately - I can only speak for myself - we're wearing the damned things aren't we? We're compliant. Just not happy about it and want them gone and we say so. Is that not allowed even?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436403#Comment_118436403

The level of hysteria in this post is seriously concerning.

Some facts...

• Covid (thankfully) never was the lethal mass killer we all feared in early 2020. It certainly isn't now with Omicron being little more than the sniffles to almost all of those who get it
• People dying is sad and unfortunate, but what were the circumstances behind those deaths? - did they did WITH Covid, or BECAUSE of it? Were they in the elderly or infirm age group? Did they have underlying medical conditions that would have left them susceptible to a whole range of complications?
• You cannot force people to feel the same level of risk and worry for a virus that doesn't significantly affect them or the overwhelming majority of people in the country. You also can't expect them to continue to treat themselves as a plague carrier because some (like yourself it would seem) still think that we're back in that early 2020 stage

And finally....

If you want to wear your mask indefinitely, stay away from others, limit your social activities, isolate or whatever else you need to do to feel safe then by all means do so!! But the rest of the population equally need to be allowed to get back to living their own lives as they wish and subject to their own risk assessment.

Wearing masks outside of non-essential settings (like a hospital operating room) is not natural, limits interaction and communication (especially in school settings), and is at this point wholly unnecessary (if there ever was a real/tangible benefit to it at all). Again, wear one if you wish but as above, you can't force anyone else to feel the same concern as you might.

I really do fear for the mental health and level of fear that still (despite the evidence) remains in people like PM above. When we DO finally move on, these people will really struggle with reintegrating into society.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436528#Comment_118436528

The figures you quoted earlier showed approx 20 percent fewer cases for masks v unmasked in schools. I dont accept 30 percent as an arbitrary baseline or that 10 percent would be 'noise' but there is a reason why every major health authority in the world recommends masks. They reduce transmission and are a low cost low impact way to do so. To claim its mostly theatre is nonsense totally without foundation except according to the arbitrary narrative you peddle.

Potential-Monke

@_Kaiser_ Ok Doctor, I'm sure you're a well educated and qualified virologist... You're the perfect example of what I was saying. You're selfish because you want to go back doing what you were doing, but you wrap it up like you care about everyone and everyone getting back to normality, but you only care about you. I was withdrawing from "normal" society a few years before Covid, because I realised just how selfish people are. This pandemic has made it painfully obvious. As I said earlier, g'luck.

CalamariFritti

Sorry for barging in again but while I hate wearing the things, me personally I can live with them for a few minutes every day.

But it depresses me seeing everyone walking around in them. Seeing the kids go to school in them (to their freezing classrooms). Its all so over the top and dystopia and for so little if any gain. And I hate our decision makers doing that to us all, to society when they well know. It depresses me for us all.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437244#Comment_118437244

You again continue to miss the crux of my point....

No-one is stopping you from wearing your mask or taking whatever other measure(s) you feel necessary to feel safe.

The mistake you're making is presuming everyone ELSE should share your level of concern or feelings of risk which just isn't going to happen because Covid doesn't affect everyone equally, and the overwhelming majority are at little to no real risk from it (especially after 3 doses of vaccination and a far milder variant now dominant).

You may call it selfish, but actually it's YOU who are being selfish by wanting everyone else to change to accommodate your fears.

Potential-Monke

Wow. You just continue to prove my point.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437244#Comment_118437244

Well that answers everything then.

This poster withdrew himself from society several years ago. Obviously you don’t want this to end and are loving the restrictions. Says it all really. I think you are the selfish one

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437370#Comment_118437370

Its a pandemic putting strain on the public health system and medical services. Masks reduce transmission and cases. Those services are there for everyone, thats why masks have been mandated. So it is enlightened self interest underlying it too.

And its not just about risk of death but hospitalisation... missing work through isolation... which affects both the employee and the ability of the services to be provided.

Is it selfish of retail and transport workers to expect people to wear masks to reduce risk to them? Seems like it would be selfish of customers to expose them to risk for the minor inconvenience of being obliged to wear a mask.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438205#Comment_118438205

At 20000 (or close enough) cases per day, masks are having little to no effect in stopping the spread - thankfully the link between cases and hospitalisation has been broken (not that it was ever really the situation that most infected people needed medical care), and despite this huge number, few people experience little more than the sniffles.

This is also why, as I've said all along, case numbers mean nothing - it's the OUTCOME of those cases that is the important thing, and those outcomes have been, and are even more so now, overwhelmingly positive thankfully.

All masks are doing now are interfering with children's ability to communicate in schools and an unnecessary inconvenience to the rest of us, something reflected by the way they are handled and disposed of (an item on the radio this week mentioned they are accounting for noticeable amounts of litter) - surely if they were so valuable and helpful people would be in turn valuing them more?

The only reason they are still a feature for the majority is the mandatory nature of the rules and penalties attached. If they were removed in the morning, masks would similarly vanish among the general population. As someone said, it's largely theatre and a placebo, as it arguably has been since the summer of 2020 when it became clear who was ACTUALLY at potential real risk from this virus.

As for the workers you mention, given they weren't wearing masks or distancing for the flu season in previous years, and as covid's latest strain is apparently (per the reports) no more dangerous than that to them, I'm sure they'd be fine with the removal of the requirements - as it wouldn't stop THEM wearing a mask or staying behind their screen if they feel more comfortable that way.

It's like I said to the other fella... You can't expect a population to feel the same level of concern or risk over something that doesn't actually affect them or does so no greater than a cold. Wear your mask, distance yourself or whatever you need to to feel safe, but accept that not everyone is affected the same way and you can't force them to act the same way.

I'm sure there will still be people who are wearing their mask long after everyone else has thrown them away, and that's perfectly fine too.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438294#Comment_118438294

At 20000 cases a day masks are having little or no effect ... why? You cant think of a number higher than 20000? You cant conceive the number could be higher than that? Really?

Its a non argument.

To call it theatre or a placebo is likewise another soundbite, completely without merit or foundation.

This is not the flu. This is a far more transmissible disease. In scale of severe cases it is capable of generating it dwarfs the flu. Everyone is at risk from covid directly and indirectly. The sheer number of cases means some people from the notional low risk groups will need hospital treatment for severe covid. The number of severe cases in turn places strain on medical services which we all depend on for non covid care.

If you dont get that its explains a lot.

Would more people drink over the limit endangering themselves and putting more vulnerable road users at risk if our limits were recommendations? Yes. Many people would still respect them for the most part but the criminal penalty is a big factor in discouraging it. The parallels with masks are obvious. People accept and adhere to rules in force even if as individuals without the rules their behaviour would be different. Mandatory masks are a signal mask wearing is needed that people respond to. And they are worn to protect others more than the wearer which is why we cant just let people look after themselves.

So governments are justified in having mask mandates. If you cant accept it tough thats democracy... there are times when citizens are legitimately inconvenienced for public health reasons. Ireland are not outliers in this approach.

pottokblue

The supermarket price of surgical mask in France is 10c and FFP2 is 50c, what are the equivalent pricegouging prices here?

fun loving criminal

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/another-21-926-covid-cases-confirmed-with-936-virus-patients-in-hospital-1.4770929

We've come a long way from no masks to now requiring respirators when caring for residents. Not happy that staff can wear the blue surgical masks when interacting with each other though. It's an airborne virus, respirators for all.

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438294#Comment_118438294

All masks are doing now are interfering with children's ability to communicate in schools and an unnecessary inconvenience to the rest of us....

Your a teacher in school now as well as a doctor? Back talking bull,.plenty of it.

Seanergy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438294#Comment_118438294

The only reason they are still a feature for the majority is the mandatory nature of the rules and penalties attached.

You haven't the faintest about masks, reasons, majorities or the rules and penalties.

Seanergy

Aaron Collins doing more live mask evaluations today, utube LNK below. SCRSHT here of him measurin the particles per cc inside his mask when talking and singing from 10 seconds until going silent around 35 seconds. Does internal and external particle testing unlike NIOSH who test just the material of the mask.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLLD3aA3CnI

Seanergy

https://uk.pcmag.com/wearables/138038/razer-plays-a-dangerous-game-with-its-misleading-mask-marketing

Gaming PC maker Razer plunged into the protective mask world during COVID, selling paper masks, cloth masks and its pièce de résistance—the Razer Zephyr, a light-up wearable air purifier with what it says are "N95-grade filters." At CES this week, it unveiled a new version, the Razer Zephyr Pro, which amplifies your voice from behind the mask.

Following that announcement, my Twitter feed exploded with rage against the company's "N95" claim. Naomi Wu, an influencer in the 3D-printing world, argued that having an "N95 Grade filter" doesn't make something an N95 mask. But most people will see that phrase as equivalent to "N95 mask," no matter how many fine-print disclaimers Razer adds, she says.

In the US, the CDC's National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) certifies that N95 respirators "used in an occupational setting meet the minimum construction, performance, and respiratory protection standards." It also maintains a website of NIOSH-approved N95 respirators listed by manufacturer from A-Z. Razer's products are not on the NIOSH list.

In its fine print, Razer acknowledges that the Razer Zephyr and Zephyr Pro "are not medical devices, respirators, surgical masks, or personal protective equipment (PPE) and are not meant to be used in medical or clinical settings." It also says that while it has "adopted standards" set forth by NIOSH, it has not been certified by the agency.

CalamariFritti

never mind

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438059#Comment_118438059

Actually, I was quite happy leaving everyone off doing the "normal" things while I kept to myself. Yeah, the lockdown has been better for me, but that's because I was used to it before it happened. It made shopping and driving a dream as there were less people around, it removed the necessity to commute, it removed having to make excuses to attend some stupid social gathering. Yeah, I loved it and would love to keep it like that, but unlike the people on the other side, I'm not selfish enough to demand it.

What this pandemic has shown is that there is a massive, massive amount of people out there who are incapable of spending time with themselves and need the interactions of others to fill whatever void is there. I will be 100% behind everyone going back to their filthy ways once this pandemic is over, not just because people want to get back to normal. When global medical professionals and qualified tenured virologists say the pandemic is over, I will believe them, no individual ones who may or may not have ulterior motives, while the rest of their profession are still pro-mask/vaccine/lockdowns.

So yeah, I'm selfish insofar as I care about the health of the general population, yourself and other anti-mask/vaccine nutters included. I'm selfish that I would love for it to stay like this, but I don't demand it nor expect everyone to want it. What I want is for everyone to put other people before themselves, but I know that's a losing battle because humans are selfish creatures. You and your ilk prove it over and over again with your comments purporting to be for everyone, but it's all about you and what you want to do, and if restrictions interfere with that, well to feck with everyone else.

But nearly 2 years on and we're still having this conversation, so that alone is proof that there's no point anymore. I will be wearing a mask in public settings well beyond this. I will be avoid large and medium (and most likely most small) social gatherings. Simply because I've had the 2 healthiest years of my life, and it's all down to avoiding people and not sharing work equipment. I will take my healthier hermit life over this supposed normal socialite life that most people push. Unlike ye, my decisions won't interfere with anyone else.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453094#Comment_118453094

You realise there was less people around during lockdown as thousands were forced out of work? That's why the roads were quieter. Lots of those people were struggling to pay bills, feed kids etc.

It's nice that you didn't have to commute though and had quieter roads. And didn't have to bother with anyone that maybe for some reason invited you out.

I'm sure those thousands that were struggling are glad that people like you don't get to have permanent lockdowns.

Potential-Monke

Oh sure, go straight to the negative examples, completing ignoring the thousands of workers remote working from home, also contributing to the lack of people on the road. And, you know, the travel restrictions. But no, that doesn't suit the agenda you're trying to paint me in.

My selfishness doesn't affect anyone, I've already stated that while there are benefits to lockdown for me I don't expect everyone to continue that way once the pandemic is over. Unlike the people I call selfish, who are "sick" of restrictions and are putting other people in danger by deliberately ignoring restrictions and regulations, and couldn't care less about those around them. Now, who is the more selfish?

Edit: continue to try and paint my opinion as me being a horrible person, when I'm the one who avoids the public and don't force my beliefs or selfishness on others. I just want people to respect other peoples decisions to still be cautious while there is still a **** pandemic around! Yes, the current variant is not as deadly, but it's still deadly. I'm sure I could survive Omicron, my parents not so much. So even if I wanted to be the selfish person, I couldn't bring that chance on my parents. It's obvious that my parents safety is of no concern to others, which is the crux of all this: selfishness. Try and frame it any other way, but it all boils down to people wanting what they want regardless of others. No keyboard virologist will convince me otherwise.

Just wear a mask and stop being a cock.