To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

patnor1011

Beasty wrote: »

Threadbanned again

No appeal will be entertained this time

He is on the extreme opposite of wearing masks but surely pretty much on par with people calling others idiots for not wearing them and suggesting they should be fined and denied medical services.

Banning people who are opposed to wearing masks even without medical condition will not make them to wear one. If everyone who does not want to wear mask will be banned from this thread it just enforces their view enormously as they will feel they are persecuted for their opinion.
Much better to engage with them, shutting them out will not make them disappear.

arccosh

still wondering if anyone has any links to facts and figures of pre and post mask wearing.... Ireland or otherwise?

Interesting the view that wearing masks is taking freedoms away.... I wonder what they'll do when facial recogniton becomes the norm

moonage

It seems some study reviews that suggest masks don't work have been purged from the internet.

"If you are looking for Why Face Masks Don’t Work: A Revealing Review by John Hardie, BDS, MSc, PhD, FRCDC, it has been removed. The content was published in 2016 and is no longer relevant in our current climate."

Masks Don’t Work: A review of science relevant to COVID-19 social policy by Dr Denis Rancourt was removed for “spreading information which may cause harm”.

Note the language. Not “false information” or “factually incorrect information” only “information which may cause harm”. Nobody (thus far) is disputing the method of the work, or the accuracy of the findings.

https://off-guardian.org/2020/09/23/is-evidence-masks-dont-work-being-purged-from-the-internet/

Graham

moonage wrote: »

Nobody (thus far) is disputing the method of the work, or the accuracy of the findings.

Yes they are

In his article, Rancourt concludes “there is no known benefit arising from wearing a mask in a viral respiratory illness epidemic.”1 The article is now widely cited by the “anti-mask” movementas proof that masks don’t work and thus laws requiring citizens to wear masks are ineffectual. But, to put it mildly, Rancourt’s argument is fraught with pseudoscience and logical mistakes, and it fails entirely to even provide evidence for (much less proof of) his thesis.

A Complete Debunking of Denis Rancourt's Mask Don't Work

But when she actually clicked on the links provided, she found something very curious. None of the studies cited concluded what Rancourt says they did. For example, six of the eight studies measured the effectiveness of N95 respirators compared to surgical masks—not, as Rancourt implied, the effectiveness of wearing a mask vs. not wearing a mask.

Further, the quotes he provided from these articles misrepresented their findings.

Yes, Masks Work: Debunking the Pseudoscience

patnor1011

Since it is clear that we will have the vaccine and actually quite a few of them the reasoning of most of the posters who are very pro mask is that we should use them until vaccine...

Now, what if vaccines will not work? We see it pretty much every year happening with other infections like flu. Some years and in some countries they get it right and vaccine match type of flu outbreak but that is a lottery and even then vaccine does not guarantee that you will not get the flu. That is not a speculation but fact so why are we focusing to a saviour which may not save us after all?

Or is this mask situation example of what is to come? Like we will say sure covid is still here because 5-10% idiots did not get vaccinated. Not to mention that some people simply cant take vaccines.

It is clear there is no "zero covid" possibility despite some people hope for it. How are we going to move forward from this?

Sconsey

patnor1011 wrote: »

Since it is clear that we will have the vaccine and actually quite a few of them the reasoning of most of the posters who are very pro mask is that we should use them until vaccine...

Now, what if vaccines will not work? We see it pretty much every year happening with other infections like flu. Some years and in some countries they get it right and vaccine match type of flu outbreak but that is a lottery and even then vaccine does not guarantee that you will not get the flu. That is not a speculation but fact so why are we focusing to a saviour which may not save us after all?

Or is this mask situation example of what is to come? Like we will say sure covid is still here because 5-10% idiots did not get vaccinated. Not to mention that some people simply cant take vaccines.

It is clear there is no "zero covid" possibility despite some people hope for it. How are we going to move forward from this?

First up you are comparing apples and oranges when talking about Flu and Covid. I don't understand the science enough but I have seen multiple reports outling the differences and the fact that flu mutates rapidly but covid does not. But that does not take away from the fact that it is likelly that a vaccine will not eliminate covid entirely and we will be faced with it long term to some extent.

So it is entirely possible, in my opinion, that mask wearing in a lot of public situations may be with us long term, along with other potential rules. It all depends on the severity of covid going forward (or any other potential new bug). Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

arccosh

moonage wrote: »

It seems some study reviews that suggest masks don't work have been purged from the internet.

"If you are looking for Why Face Masks Don’t Work: A Revealing Review by John Hardie, BDS, MSc, PhD, FRCDC, it has been removed. The content was published in 2016 and is no longer relevant in our current climate."

Masks Don’t Work: A review of science relevant to COVID-19 social policy by Dr Denis Rancourt was removed for “spreading information which may cause harm”.

Note the language. Not “false information” or “factually incorrect information” only “information which may cause harm”. Nobody (thus far) is disputing the method of the work, or the accuracy of the findings.

https://off-guardian.org/2020/09/23/is-evidence-masks-dont-work-being-purged-from-the-internet/

all still available through academic routes.... along with numerous studies debunking them.....


people really need to stop holding on to 1 piece of evidence that agrees with their narrative while ignoring numerous other pieces of evidence....




on a seperate route, I'm still trying to find figures of Covid cases/deaths pre and post mask wearing?



Genuine question, not trolling, I've seen "research" mention here a few times with no citing..



anything on the academic route I have seen is still being investigated, as it's not as simple as mask off mask on type of quantisation...



you need to take into account social measures, such as lockdown measures, who is meant to have masks post lockdown etc...



(for example, in the UK, retail staff do not have to wear masks while patrons do, whereas it's different in other countries, and a like for like comparison is not truely available)

alentejo

I am not anti mask however I do hope some studies prove that wave2 will not / cant be as severe as wave 1 as the majority of people now wear masks in an indoor public environment.

Tork

Masks are just one tool to deal with Covid so I don't know how measureable they are really. There are so many variables which make difficult to be consistent. Any figures we have will be distorted by the early cases and that glut of nursing home cases and deaths. Then there's how things were in those early months. People weren't out and about in the ways they are now. There was hardly any traffic on the roads, next to nobody in our cities and towns, the supermarkets were like well-lit tombs and just about everything was shut down. (Remember the mad queues outside Penney and McDonalds when they reopened?). Then there's the fatigue at all the Covid restrictions. It's human nature to become complacent, to get fed up of all these measures, to break the rules, to forget what is being asked of us.

Most people are wearing masks now but that doesn't account for their behaviour when they're not in work/shops/public transport. I see anti-maskers throw up the "We didn't need them in March and April" argument along with the "The rates have gone up since people started wearing masks". Masks aren't the beginning or the end of the story but they're a visible and easy target for some. While people are mostly wearing them when required now, we don't know what they're doing at other times. That's where the virus is mostly spreading now. I think the behaviour of people as this pandemic has gone on is a much bigger factor than whether they're wearing masks or not.

Seanergy

https://twitter.com/AmericanAerosol/status/1309558676366266369

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Well new research today indicates that masks are highly effective but plastic visors not so much. I presume some people wear them because they're exempt from masks. But anyone wearing them because they're just more comfortable needs to have a serious think. You're not really protecting other people and could do serious harm by not wearing a mask.

is_that_so

Ivanna Weak Paperwork wrote: »

Well new research today indicates that masks are highly effective but plastic visors not so much. I presume some people wear them because they're exempt from masks. But anyone wearing them because they're just more comfortable needs to have a serious think. You're not really protecting other people and could do serious harm by not wearing a mask.

That's assuming you're actually infected in the first place, otherwise there's just a faint whiff of what you had for last night's dinner! I do hope the hyper zealous among us can make the transition back to treating people normally, when this is over. Some I fear will not.

pjohnson

is_that_so wrote: »

That's assuming you're actually infected in the first place, otherwise there's just a faint whiff of what you had for last night's dinner! I do hope the hyper zealous among us can make the transition back to treating people normally, when this is over. Some I fear will not.

So you don't brush your teeth?

is_that_so

pjohnson wrote: »

So you don't brush your teeth?

Some people ooze smells through their pores anyway!

Graham

is_that_so wrote: »

That's assuming you're actually infected in the first place

Given the rate infections are spreading, you have to conclude that many infected people have no idea that they're infected.

Masks are a sensible and easy precaution.

weldoninhio

Graham wrote: »

Given the rate infections are spreading, you have to conclude that many infected people have no idea that they're infected.

Masks are a sensible and easy precaution.

Such a deadly disease, people don’t notice having it. Aren’t we lucky we have so many restrictions to save us.

Graham

weldoninhio wrote: »

Such a deadly disease, people don’t notice having it..

As is the case for many deadly diseases.

You are forgetful.

Seanergy

RTE really could have done better with the headline, at least the content is getting more accurate.

Study highlights effectiveness of masks and visors.

Questions have been raised about the effectiveness of plastic visors, with Prof Cahill saying that "with the visor an awful lot of the breath is diverted downwards unfiltered and that's important for people to know.

The Mater research also shows that the aerosols and droplets from the nose and mouth can remain suspended in the air - in an inside room with no ventilation - for up to an hour before falling to the ground

The findings are something to bear in mind as we go about our daily lives.

3xh

Seanergy wrote: »

RTE really could have done better with the headline, at least the content is getting more accurate.

Study highlights effectiveness of masks and visors.

Questions have been raised about the effectiveness of plastic visors, with Prof Cahill saying that "with the visor an awful lot of the breath is diverted downwards unfiltered and that's important for people to know.

The Mater research also shows that the aerosols and droplets from the nose and mouth can remain suspended in the air - in an inside room with no ventilation - for up to an hour before falling to the ground

The findings are something to bear in mind as we go about our daily lives.

And yet that well known Finnish research video released at the start of all this of the shopper coughing in an aisle next to another customer showed the droplets dissipated within a few minutes. And they fell downwards, not hung in the air. This was in an air conditioned cavernous shop.

Why would droplets hang for ‘up to’ an hour and then fall? That’s how it’s worded. Not that it took an hour for the droplets to reach the floor.

I suspect that RTÉ report is just another confirmation bias report.

Sconsey

3xh wrote: »

I suspect that RTÉ report is just another confirmation bias report.

So you are saying that RTE are mis-representing the Mater research? Or are you saying the Mater research is wrong?

Seanergy

3xh wrote: »

Why would droplets hang for ‘up to’ an hour and then fall? That’s how it’s worded. Not that it took an hour for the droplets to reach the floor.

Confident you read that incorrectly, that's not how it is worded, try reading it again.

Capt'n Midnight

GT89 wrote: »

But an N95 or FFP2 would provide protection. Reccomend these for vulnerable and they are given protection that means there wouldn't have to be legal intimidation into wearing them and Garda time could be saved.

To begin with for about half the population there is no extra protection using these masks unless they are cleanly shaven.

And then there's the issue of making sure they are properly fitting. You need a second person to make sure you know how to put them on. And preferably to check each time you put them on.


Much better to reduce the amount of virus spreading in the environment.

Not practical for Kids, OAP's with dementia, or even those with unsteady hands etc.


Also we still don't know the long term effects of Covid on those who caught a mild dose and recovered. Childhood chickenpox can result in Shingles hitting much later in like when you are an OAP. And after rashes you can have severe nerve pain for more than three months.

3xh

Sconsey wrote: »

So you are saying that RTE are mis-representing the Mater research? Or are you saying the Mater research is wrong?

RTE didn’t construct the study. They’re simply reporting it. That doesn’t mean their reporting is accurate and non-selective in the points it highlights.

RTÉ have gotten many news items incorrect in the past. Even with the benefit of as much time in the world before going to ‘print’, they still managed to f*ck up their Prime Time Investigates report into Fr. Kevin Reynolds (I digress, I know, but it’s just one example) because they wanted ‘that’ news story.

I’m not saying the Mater study is wrong. I’m just not hanging my hat on it that if I walk into a sealed room 60 mins after a Covid patient sneezes, I’ll contract it.

What exactly do the Mater researchers mean by ‘up to an hour’? 24 mins?!

3xh

Seanergy wrote: »

Confident you read that incorrectly, that's not how it is worded, try reading it again.

Do you mean this bit; ‘ The Mater research also shows that the aerosols and droplets from the nose and mouth can remain suspended in the air - in an inside room with no ventilation - for up to an hour before falling to the ground’?

To me that means they could visually track at least one aerosol/droplet remain not in contact with the ground for a maximum of 59:59mins before it proceeded to make contact with the ground.

I commented on that well known Finnish video. It suggests something different. But ultimately, what exactly is the focus for on a non-air conditioned room?

Next, it’ll be done in an indoor squash court for a reason I’ve no idea of. It just screams, to me, of the Mater researcher just trying to get research studies out there for recognition etc. Whilst it’s news, are we really learning anything?

Even before Covid, it would’ve been the accepted practice to leave a non conditioned office room door open upon leaving to freshen it up as they get stale after a meeting.

Plumbthedepths

Thought I'd share this again.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/health/cdc-reverts-airborne-transmission-guidance/index.html

xhomelezz

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Thought I'd share this again.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/health/cdc-reverts-airborne-transmission-guidance/index.html

Just to manage cookies is painful.

odyssey06

3xh wrote: »

Do you mean this bit; ‘ The Mater research also shows that the aerosols and droplets from the nose and mouth can remain suspended in the air - in an inside room with no ventilation - for up to an hour before falling to the ground’?

To me that means they could visually track at least one aerosol/droplet remain not in contact with the ground for a maximum of 59:59mins before it proceeded to make contact with the ground.

I commented on that well known Finnish video. It suggests something different. But ultimately, what exactly is the focus for on a non-air conditioned room?

Next, it’ll be done in an indoor squash court for a reason I’ve no idea of. It just screams, to me, of the Mater researcher just trying to get research studies out there for recognition etc. Whilst it’s news, are we really learning anything?

Even before Covid, it would’ve been the accepted practice to leave a non conditioned office room door open upon leaving to freshen it up as they get stale after a meeting.

Can you point me to the study which shows that we can look at a room or space and determine how adequate its ventilation is for the dispersal of droplets?

'Indoor squash court' ? Do many people work or shop regularly in such a space? Totally absurd comparison.

How do you even know how good the air conditioning is, if it's working effectively, if it is recirculating air or not.
You have just invented an 'accepted practice' out of thin air of absolute unkown levels of acceptance or effectiveness. Your accepted practice is no such thing and irrelevent in any case.

Droplets can hang in the air. This we know.
Droplets are reduced by masks. This we know.
Is it probable that larger better ventilated spaces disperse droplets better than other spaces? Yes.
Do we know enough to know what level of ventilation is in different spaces to the extent that we can be confident droplets will disperse? No.

Therefore, in my opinion totally reasonable to mandate mask wearing.

xhomelezz

is_that_so wrote: »

That's assuming you're actually infected in the first place, otherwise there's just a faint whiff of what you had for last night's dinner! I do hope the hyper zealous among us can make the transition back to treating people normally, when this is over. Some I fear will not.

Interested to hear how to know I'm actually infected. Some workaround you have?

Plumbthedepths

xhomelezz wrote: »

Just to manage cookies is painful.

I like the chocolate chip ones.

xhomelezz

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I like the chocolate chip ones.

Good, me too.