To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

odyssey06

wonski wrote: »

The only issue with that I have is that wearing the masks did not stop the virus here.

The numbers are growing despite people actually wearing them. So what's the next step?

We failed at many things, but we wear them.

And why Taiwan or Australia. Stop people from coming here again and see if anything changes.

I wore a mask, I stopped my social life for months and the numbers keep growing.

I worked my ass off through the original centre of the pandemic and seen no improvement. I have not seen the virus either. We had hundreds of people quarantined or self isolating at work over the months and zero positive cases.

Just symptomatic tested negative or close contacts of asymptomatic tested positive.

Work in Kildare, at some point the epicentrum of the pandemic... Go figure.


We didn't wear the masks back then, now some do, but not compulsory yet.

It changed nothing. I am starting to have my doubts. I remember the Chechs being mentioned million of times around yet there numbers were similar to others. And now growing just like everywhere else.

So keep your mask on for another few weeks, see the numbers not changing at all and tell me what are we on about.

The Czechs stopping wearings masks. Cases going up. Masks are back.

In Kildare there was an outbreak in meat factories and direct provision. Did you work there? The masks and restrictions were about keeping the outbreak confined to those clusters. They appear to have worked?

Surely one of the reason you didn't see cases was because people were isolating and quarantining and following the measures...

Our cases are going up because of travel, coupled with people not isolating, then socialising in informal settings where there are no masks. There are also issues with pubs (Cork), meat factories and direct provision.
Masks as a measure can only do so much, there are not a magic bullet, they are one weapon in the arsenal in specific transmission settings.

3xh

wonski wrote: »

There are no rugby fans any more. No drinking, no students returning from school trips. Where is that second wave coming from now after weeks of wearing masks?

Yep, I agree. Very dubious.

And with the now, as of yesterday, acknowledged limitations in both the PCR tests and the construct of the hospitalisation figures by NPHET in the oireachtas, you’d have to wonder just how significant of a threat it is.

Yes, it’s here. But as per NPHET/McConkey/RTÉ/etc? I don’t think so.

Throw in Dr. Feeley explaining the limitations of the other side’s plan and really, what exactly was that surge in Mar-May?

The UK used anyone who died after testing positive with Covid as a Covid death. Now they’ve amended their counting to exclude anyone who dies outside of 28 days after testing positive.

These figures are a moveable feast. Deaths and cases. It just depends on how the experts decide among themselves to cut them at any particular time. It’s no way to run a country/worldwide response to Covid.

Sconsey

wonski wrote: »

There are no rugby fans any more. No drinking, no students returning from school trips. Where is that second wave coming from now after weeks of wearing masks?

Its coming from complacency in general I think, look at the case in point as an example....one careless person responsible for a further 56 infections both directly and indirectly. That would not have happened to such an extent if everyone was complying with the guidance.

https://twitter.com/ronan_glynn/status/1310639444802838528

CalamariFritti

gmisk wrote: »

Jesus...Christ....are you joking or not?
You don't understand how masks work do you?...or breathing seemingly.
Masks do not reduce oxygen saturation.
All those surgeons wearing medical grade masks keep collapsing and dying due to carbon dioxide poisoning...

To be fair this is not completely off the wall. I understand operation theatre have certain air conditioning to allow for reduced oxygen intake.

gmisk

CalamariFritti wrote: »

To be fair this is not completely off the wall. I understand operation theatre have certain air conditioning to allow for reduced oxygen intake.

It kind of is though.
Some operating theatres have HEPA filters and the like yes but I don't think they have anything in place due to reduced oxygen intake...do you have anything that says that?

Anyway face masks do not reduce oxygen levels that is a fact.

Sconsey

CalamariFritti wrote: »

To be fair this is not completely off the wall. I understand operation theatre have certain air conditioning to allow for reduced oxygen intake.

I'd love to see some evidence of that, the only reason for extra oxygen to be in an operating theatre is because they have increased the pressure in the room to limit bacteria access. Or there could be oxygen required for the patient. I sure can't find any evidence that extra oxygen is required for masked staff.

Seanergy

wonski wrote: »

No my issue is with people not getting their priorities right.

If you see someone in front of you driving like an idiot and wearing a mask looks like he wants to save the country from the virus but doesn't give a **** about other stuff that can cause harm or death?

Am I clear now?

You can wear mask and all, but don't forget of all other duties you have.

Hope you get me now.

Have more people died from covid19 or road traffic accidents in Ireland this year?

crystal.

Duties, lol, don't exist, we are drowning in the time of rights.

wonski

Seanergy wrote: »

Have more people died from covid19 or road traffic accidents in Ireland this year?

crystal.

Duties, lol, don't exist, we are drowning in the time of rights.

I don't know. Hard to find reports on other deaths anymore.

I did however look into what the cleaners in the company were using and found that they were spraying quite strong disinfectant onto the grill surfaces at work. Would you spray Dettol into your toaster?
People were complaining because there food was contaminated and had foul smell.

I just want a common sense applied and people realizing that other aspects of life and risks associated with it are still out there.

I work in retail where thousands of store workers were exposed to the virus and there were zero outbrakes. Quarantines and self isolations were down to hse guidelines, so were the regulations regarding masks.

They worked without masks because the hse claimed they were not needed and were fine.

Now they wear masks because the hse claims they are necessary. And they are fine.

Believe me most are confused now, they were worried in March or April, worried to go to work, now they are annoyed. In general.

odyssey06

wonski wrote: »

I work in retail where thousands of store workers were exposed to the virus and there were zero outbrakes. Quarantines and self isolations were down to hse guidelines, so were the regulations regarding masks.
They worked without masks because the hse claimed they were not needed and were fine.
Now they wear masks because the hse claims they are necessary. And they are fine.
Believe me most are confused now, they were worried in March or April, worried to go to work, now they are annoyed. In general.

Lots of retail were closed in March or April and imo many of those closed retail outlets would be higher risk than the ones that were open (supermarkets, hardware etc). The ones that were open tended to be ones were people were in and out quick - corner shops, large hardware stores, or supermarkets where there is food prep and so probably have proper ventilation systems.

I'm thinking of people in stuffy bookstores, spending ages browsing in clothes stores.
So your experience of retail is not all retail.

With perfect knowledge we could look at a building, and its ventilation system and determine for sure if masks are necessary. We don't have that knowledge.
We're dealing with a lethal disease, it seems reasonable to me to adopt a safety first approach and assume all retail as an indoor space where lots of people are moving through is a risk.

Seanergy

wonski wrote: »

Would you spray Dettol into your toaster?

I work in retail where thousands of store workers were exposed to the virus and there were zero outbrakes.

No, if I wanted to clean the inside of the toaster I would put the toaster on and let the heating elements do that. BTW I only use dettol spray with a mask on and/or in a well ventilated space, that product is lethal.

Of course their were zero outbrakes, that's why the the cleaners were deep cleaning the toaster, were their any outbreaks though? Are your cleaners any good, do you test for dust above shoulder height?

wonski

Seanergy wrote: »

No, if I wanted to clean the inside of the toaster I would put the toaster on and let the heating elements do that. BTW I only use dettol spray with a mask on and/or in a well ventilated space, that product is lethal.

Of course their were zero outbrakes, that's why the the cleaners were deep cleaning the toaster, were their any outbreaks though? Are your cleaners any good, do you test for dust above shoulder height?

How many people got killed by virus particles on the toaster?

Of course I appreciate the work of the company I work for to keep the place as clean as it can be.

The stock sent to the stores is not dealt with Dettol 5 times a day. It is just touched by 20 people before going onto the shelf.

I highly doubt people got the virus by the toaster, microwave switch or elsewhere.

It's easy to do for internationals or large Irish retailers.

The others will just close. Because they can't afford having a guy spraying chemicals all over the canteen to please the hse.

Any other time the hse would come and complained what is used in what way and how and would tell you how you are causing cancer and all that.

Noe do what you want as long as it is clean.

I have dealt with hse for long enough to know their limitations and now they are just making rules up as they go. No masks/masks/no chemicals/chemicals... I could go on...

Seanergy

Thanks for the moan, sweet f all to do with masks.

3xh

Sconsey wrote: »

Its coming from complacency in general I think, look at the case in point as an example....one careless person responsible for a further 56 infections both directly and indirectly. That would not have happened to such an extent if everyone was complying with the guidance.

https://twitter.com/ronan_glynn/status/1310639444802838528

This NPHET hypothetical projection is like a last roll of the dice for credibility and to instil fear. They could have gone on another round of transmissions and made it 100. Or stopped short and made it 40. It’s meaningless.

And sure enough, it worked on at least one poster who quoted it to me in one of his posts regarding a publican who was positive and infected a number of patrons. He thought it was a genuine known contact case.

This isn’t directed at you Sconsey but NPHET and Glynn.

wonski

Seanergy wrote: »

Thanks for the moan, sweet f all to do with masks.

Fair enough. I think it has a lot to do with masks.

Being fair I only posted here because all other posts had nothing to do with masks anyway. The ridicoulous airbag/mask/shield part. I have just appeared here with my own observation. And as someone working with many people who worked with even more people I believe I can post here and raise my concerns.

Let's wear and see.

moonage

Sconsey wrote: »

Its coming from complacency in general I think, look at the case in point as an example....one careless person responsible for a further 56 infections both directly and indirectly. That would not have happened to such an extent if everyone was complying with the guidance.

The upside is that this has contributed to collective immunity.

Regarding masks, I wonder how much longer people will put up with them, given the low hospitalisation and death rates. More and more people are realising how benign this virus really is to the vast majority of the population.

The regulations for mandatory mask wearing expire on 5th October. It would be great if they weren't renewed, but it's unlikely.

3xh

moonage wrote: »

The upside is that this has contributed to collective immunity.

That 56 transmissions case is hypothetical. It didn’t happen. It was a computer model NPHET used one day to show how one person can spread it.

It’s not an actual example.

Like I said, NPHET’s tactic worked.

robinph

patnor1011 wrote: »

Face Mask are the Mob's Dumbo’s Feather
written by jeff harris

...gibberish...

So the feather helped Dumbo to learn to fly.

What is it that you think the mask is trying to teach us to do? What is the master plan which governments and health experts around the world are trying to trick us with by getting us to wear masks?

The feather was a tool, and it worked, Dumbo flew. Worst case for the masks is that they serve the purpose of reminding us all that there is a virus around and we should keep our distance from each other to prevent its spread. If that is all the masks do then that is useful too.

weldoninhio

robinph wrote: »

So the feather helped Dumbo to learn to fly.

What is it that you think the mask is trying to teach us to do? What is the master plan which governments and health experts around the world are trying to trick us with by getting us to wear masks?

The feather was a tool, and it worked, Dumbo flew. Worst case for the masks is that they serve the purpose of reminding us all that there is a virus around and we should keep our distance from each other to prevent its spread. If that is all the masks do then that is useful too.

A virus that will effect less than 5% of the population

robinph

weldoninhio wrote: »

A virus that will effect less than 5% of the population

Have 100% of people been infected yet?

So about the feather and mask, explain the conspiracy behind the mask and why they are trying to get people to wear them?

3xh

robinph wrote: »

Have 100% of people been infected yet?

So about the feather and mask, explain the conspiracy behind the mask and why they are trying to get people to wear them?

It’s to give people something to focus on. It’s a visual, tactile reminder that it’s still out there and the restrictions are still for a reason. Move away from the conspiracy angle for a sec.

Even the switchover point from non mandated masks to mandated masks gave the government a burst of new credibility, shall we say. It made it look like they’re on it, they’re still open to reviewing new evidence, reinforces the threat is still there, etc. And it’s worked. People really bought into it. And if you bought into the mask thing, why would you break another guideline? That’d be cherry-picking.

The recent HSE guidance note to staff says it all. I paraphrase, ‘Due to public perception, please wear your mask when moving around the public area of hospitals......’

robinph

3xh wrote: »

It’s to give people something to focus on. It’s a visual, tactile reminder that it’s still out there and the restrictions are still for a reason. Move away from the conspiracy angle for a sec.

Even the switchover point from non mandated masks to mandated masks gave the government a burst of new credibility, shall we say. It made it look like they’re on it, they’re still open to reviewing new evidence, reinforces the threat is still there, etc. And it’s worked. People really bought into it. And if you bought into the mask thing, why would you break another guideline? That’d be cherry-picking.

The recent HSE guidance note to staff says it all. I paraphrase, ‘Due to public perception, please wear your mask when moving around the public area of hospitals......’

So if mask wearing is primarily about people keeping safe and following the rules to reduce transmission, although somehow you believe that the masks themselves are irrelevant to that process, then what is the problem with mask wearing.

If they keep the transmission lower by reducing the spread from one person's breathing to another then that is great.
If they keep the transmission lower by reminding people to keep 2m apart and wash their hands more often then that is also great.

So, we are back to wondering what your problem with masks is? If they work as designed, or as a placebo, then they are still working.

3xh

robinph wrote: »

So if mask wearing is primarily about people keeping safe and following the rules to reduce transmission, although somehow you believe that the masks themselves are irrelevant to that process, then what is the problem with mask wearing.

If they keep the transmission lower by reducing the spread from one person's breathing to another then that is great.
If they keep the transmission lower by reminding people to keep 2m apart and wash their hands more often then that is also great.

So, we are back to wondering what your problem with masks is? If they work as designed, or as a placebo, then they are still working.

You just simply buy into it fully. That’s fine. It’s no different to the government saying we now believe it can seep into your pores, we recommend you wear full length clothing. You’d do it. Because one they recommend it and ‘what would I know?’ And two, ‘what harm is it anyway?’

Do you note see the significance of the HSE note to staff? ‘Due to public perception please wear your mask in public areas’?!

Are medical staff killing their patients behind the ward doors by walking through public areas maskless? You say ‘If they keep the transmission lower by reducing the spread from one person's breathing to another then that is great.’ Are you calling our frontline workers selfish killers?

weldoninhio

robinph wrote: »

Have 100% of people been infected yet?

So about the feather and mask, explain the conspiracy behind the mask and why they are trying to get people to wear them?

It's a placebo. Firstly it makes the govt look like they are doing something and secondly it shuts up the minority of whingers, although even the current measures aren't enough for them, as seen by their whinging about HSE staff not wearing them as they walk from empty office to empty office/their car/as they exit the building.

John O.Groats

3xh wrote: »

It’s to give people something to focus on. It’s a visual, tactile reminder that it’s still out there and the restrictions are still for a reason. Move away from the conspiracy angle for a sec.

Even the switchover point from non mandated masks to mandated masks gave the government a burst of new credibility, shall we say. It made it look like they’re on it, they’re still open to reviewing new evidence, reinforces the threat is still there, etc. And it’s worked. People really bought into it. And if you bought into the mask thing, why would you break another guideline? That’d be cherry-picking.

The recent HSE guidance note to staff says it all. I paraphrase, ‘Due to public perception, please wear your mask when moving around the public area of hospitals......’

Any chance you might quote the exact phraseology of this guidance note that was issiued and not this paraphrasing bull****e?

weldoninhio

robinph wrote: »

So if mask wearing is primarily about people keeping safe and following the rules to reduce transmission, although somehow you believe that the masks themselves are irrelevant to that process, then what is the problem with mask wearing.

If they keep the transmission lower by reducing the spread from one person's breathing to another then that is great.
If they keep the transmission lower by reminding people to keep 2m apart and wash their hands more often then that is also great.

So, we are back to wondering what your problem with masks is? If they work as designed, or as a placebo, then they are still working.

Except, as Tony Holohan predicted, they actually don't do the bolded bit, they make people think they are safe at less than 2m.

weldoninhio

John O.Groats wrote: »

Any chance you might quote the exact phraseology of this guidance note that was issiued and not this paraphrasing bull****e?

"Public and patients have expressed concern that they are wearing cloth face coverings in all public areas of healthcare facilities, but that they see healthcare workers who are not wearing face coverings in these facilities.

................ has recommended that health care workers, in addition to current guidance on mask use, should be asked to wear masks when transiting through busy public areas of healthcare facilities in both the community and acute setting to address this public concern."

Nothnig about the virus spreading, or any scientific basis. To address public concern.

CalamariFritti

My personal problem with them is that I feel they're giving off a vibe of oppression for want of a better word. I dont feel oppressed in the sense that I'm thinking its 1984 or Brave New World but they make the place feel like sh1t. Like fkn Chernobyl or something. They have a terrible psychological effect. Every time I have to pull one over my face entering a shop in my head it goes 'what a load of dickie'.

I understand that's just me. Other probably feel the exact opposite, it gives them a feeling of added safety. I get that.

But I can't help it, I feel that way about them.

Then there is the factual side of it that adds to my anxiety about them. Because the factual side is very thin. Yes they reduce droplets and they may reduce a little bit of aerosol, but not much. If you dont agree with the latter just take a pull of an e-cig and then blow it out through your mask. Lets see how much is getting held up. But they reduce droplets fair enough. Only droplets fall to the ground anyway. But ok droplets...

Of which there is a small chance they may contain virus, statistically.

But the thing is transmission is apparently all about concentration aka viral load. Which nobody knows what the effective concentration is and where and under which circumstances those occur. And so we make masks mandatory in places where we have empirical evidence that shows no or next to no transmission occurred in the first place.
So the fact we found some virus in some ICU air and say 'its airborne' and we have tissue that reduces droplets doesnt make it evidence with regards to reducing spread in shops and supermarkets. There are a a lot of 'hail mary' gaps in there.

So I feel we're not really following science here we just do something the public will agree with and what harm does it do so feck it lets do it.

But looking at what happened after 9/11 with regards to security measures we all know once a thing is in place its very hard to get rid nor matter how much or little sense it makes. So I fear they're mostly a psychological thing, a placebo and for all that there is a risk they're here to stay.

You may or mot not agree with me but I dont feel like I'm a tin foil hat wearer or a science ignorant idiot.

Away With The Fairies

moonage wrote: »

The upside is that this has contributed to collective immunity.

Regarding masks, I wonder how much longer people will put up with them, given the low hospitalisation and death rates. More and more people are realising how benign this virus really is to the vast majority of the population.

The regulations for mandatory mask wearing expire on 5th October. It would be great if they weren't renewed, but it's unlikely.

Low hospitalisations? Hospitalisations is increasing. So are deaths.

odyssey06

CalamariFritti wrote: »

My personal problem with them is that I feel they're giving off a vibe of oppression for want of a better word. I dont feel oppressed in the sense that I'm thinking its 1984 or Brave New World but they make the place feel like sh1t. Like fkn Chernobyl or something. They have a terrible psychological effect. Every time I have to pull one over my face entering a shop in my head it goes 'what a load of dickie'.

The science argument behind masks has already been argued and explained in this thread.
We are following science when adopting them, precautionary science perhaps, erring on the side of caution where we have incomplete knowledge.
An entirely reasonable course of action to follow with a new virus for which we can't conduct RCTs.

In terms of the oppression\ freedom aspect though.
In Hong Kong it is the opposite... people have been banned from wearing masks when protesting and they are challenging that in courts.
The virus, social distancing, queues to get into shops took the 'fun' out of shopping for me long before masks. But that's a far cry from oppression.

But looking at what happened after 9/11 with regards to security measures we all know once a thing is in place its very hard to get rid nor matter how much or little sense it makes. So I fear they're mostly a psychological thing, a placebo and for all that there is a risk they're here to stay.

I don't buy the slippery slope argument at all when it comes to these measures. We've seen lots of measures come and go with covid-19. We've seen countries like Czech Republic bring in mask requirements, then drop it, then re-instate it.

Away With The Fairies

A poster in the main thread said there was 14 ICU beds left in Dublin. Yesterday it was 9 left.

And people find it hard or just ignorant to be wearing a face mask?