To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

John O.Groats

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

You feel a sneeze coming on, you'd want to be quick to remove your mask, pull out a tissue and get your elbow up your face. Nobody has that kind of quick reactions. At most you'll get your mask off, so you end up sneezing openly into a shared space. That is disgusting.

Speak for yourself. Ii have done it often enough. Like everything else it just takes practice.

Graham

John O.Groats wrote: »

Speak for yourself. Ii have done it often enough. Like everything else it just takes practice.

You do practice sneezes?

weldoninhio

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

You feel a sneeze coming on, you'd want to be quick to remove your mask, pull out a tissue and get your elbow up your face. Nobody has that kind of quick reactions. At most you'll get your mask off, so you end up sneezing openly into a shared space. That is disgusting.

I don’t think I’ve ever sneezed without realising 5-10 seconds beforehand that I’m gonna sneeze. Is that not normal? You feel an irritation in your nose, it’s builds up, then you sneeze??

CalamariFritti

Lads I'm happy to debate studies and numbers and if necessary behaviour and whatnot. But we're going into silly land now.

You two robin and awaywith are either unable to read or try to deliberately come up with nonsensical questions in order to somehow construe I'm talking nonsense. I tried to engage with you reasonably but to me it becomes obvious you are being disingenious I'll leave you to it.

robinph

It's your own words which are showing you as talking nonsense, we're not doing that for you.

You have claimed that sneezing into a mask is disgusting and it's better to take it off and sneeze into your elbow. We didn't make you say that.

CalamariFritti

robinph wrote: »

It's your own words which are showing you as talking nonsense, we're not doing that for you.

You have claimed that sneezing into a mask is disgusting and it's better to take it off and sneeze into your elbow. We didn't make you say that.

So sneezing into your elbow (or hanky) is the same as trumpeting it through the aisle? And sneezing into your mask isn't disgusting if thats your only mask?

You do know that sneezing into your elbow is the actual HSE advice?

robinph

CalamariFritti wrote: »

So sneezing into your elbow (or hanky) is the same as trumpeting it through the aisle? And sneezing into your mask isn't disgusting if thats your only mask?

You do know that sneezing into your elbow is the actual HSE advice?

I thought you were doubting the modeling of sneezes a few pages ago and trying to say that the droplets didn't disperse around the whole room / shop?

Are you also sticking with the claim about an elbow being preferable to a mask for preventing spread? If you can find the statement from HSE about not sneezing into masks and to remove them so that you can sneeze into your elbow that would be useful for your case.

As for the disgustingness of sneezing into your only mask, if you do that then the disgustingness is you problem and yours alone. The following time you might remember to bring a spare mask, or seeing as you are out shopping when this sneezing fit happens maybe you can buy a spare in the shop.
If you remove the mask though so that you keep it free of snot for your couple of minutes walk back home from the shop, you are instead distributing your disgustingness withe everyone around you and also those who follow behind you into said shop 10 minutes later. Now which is the better option in terms of prevent the spread of a virus you don't know if you have or not?

odyssey06

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don’t think I’ve ever sneezed without realising 5-10 seconds beforehand that I’m gonna sneeze. Is that not normal? You feel an irritation in your nose, it’s builds up, then you sneeze??

Some sneezes come on like that, some come on sudden.

CalamariFritti

robinph wrote: »

I thought you were doubting the modeling of sneezes a few pages ago and trying to say that the droplets didn't disperse around the whole room / shop?

Are you also sticking with the claim about an elbow being preferable to a mask for preventing spread? If you can find the statement from HSE about not sneezing into masks and to remove them so that you can sneeze into your elbow that would be useful for your case.

As for the disgustingness of sneezing into your only mask, if you do that then the disgustingness is you problem and yours alone. The following time you might remember to bring a spare mask, or seeing as you are out shopping when this sneezing fit happens maybe you can buy a spare in the shop.
If you remove the mask though so that you keep it free of snot for your couple of minutes walk back home from the shop, you are instead distributing your disgustingness withe everyone around you and also those who follow behind you into said shop 10 minutes later. Now which is the better option in terms of prevent the spread of a virus you don't know if you have or not?

I am not doubting the models. I am doubting that this happens in the real world. I am doubting that people would sneeze unprotected in shops without a care in the world covid or not. I am doubting therefore the relevance of those models. People look at those models and go 'ah look at that, deadly, thank god we all have those masks' without actually engaging their brains.

And yes therefore I am saying that most likely the relevance of this we-protect-each-other mantra is vastly overstated.

Edit: removed unnecessary dig

odyssey06

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I am not doubting the models. I am doubting that this happens in the real world. I am doubting that people would sneeze unprotected in shops without a care in the world covid or not. I am doubting therefore the relevance of those models. People look at those models and go 'ah look at that, deadly, thank god we all have those masks' without actually engaging their brains.
And yes therefore I am saying that most likely the relevance of this we-protect-each-other mantra is vastly overstated.
Now you can continue spinning around in circles all by yourself.

And yes they cough and sneeze unprotected.
Coughing more so, in my experience, but both occur.
Especially in individuals who are prone to coughing fits.

On buses, in shops. In workplaces.
Happened all the time before covid.
Is it less so now? Probably.
Can we rely on that? Nope and why should we?
Especially when we consider that people can expel droplets when they speak.

So for your doubts, well, I don't know why you would expect anyone to attach any weight to them.

Apparently you trusted the science that said cough into your elbow... but not the improved advice to use a mask. Makes no sense.
You dismiss the evidence for masks models showing masks containing droplets...but as to why apparently we should be coughing into our elbows instead you got nothing. No evidence. No models.
It just comes down to you having a problem with the mandatory aspect of masks.
That's some circle you have spun yourself into.

CalamariFritti

I wouldnt be sneezing into my mask because I dont fancy walking around (even if just for 10 minutes) with a wet-from-snot piece of fabric clinging to my face. And I'd say most other people wouldnt fancy that either.

There is no talking myself into circles. Its very simple logic you guys deliberately fail to understand. I'll put it into three reasonably simple sentences, maybe this will help.

a) The only actual study so far on mask efficacy can not make a convincing case for protection for the wearer.
b) The models that show us sneezes and coughs unprotected wafting through supermarket aisles are based on the incorrect (IMO) assumption that this actually happens to any meaningful degree in the real world.
c) If that actually were to happen to any meaningful degree our masks would filter the big droplets that aren't an issue to begin with and are useless for the aerosols that actually may be the problem.

Conclusion: Self protection is very weak at best. Other-than-me protection is pure conjecture with big holes in it and thats being generous.

Thats not too hard to understand, no?

odyssey06

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I wouldnt be sneezing into my mask because I dont fancy walking around (even if just for 10 minutes) with a wet-from-snot piece of fabric clinging to my face. And I'd say most other people wouldnt fancy that either. Thats not hard to understand, no?

Must be a pretty productive cough or sneeze for one of them to be having that effect on a mask... Pretty sure I have sneezed wearing a surgical mask and it didn't reduce the mask to this state you describe.

I think I'd much prefer having to deal with my own output on my own mask, than be subjected to the unprotected coughs and sneezes (or elbow dispersals!) of other people.

That's not hard to understand either.

You are also ignoring the point that people expel droplets when speaking when it comes to barrier effects by diverting the discussion to coughs and sneezes. A person speaking at volume on a noisy bus, noisy shop or hairdressers is an even bigger outputter.
If you've never experienced an unprotected cough or sneeze, you've never been on a Dublin Bus in rush hour in winter with your eyes and ears open.
(or summer hayfever season)

Seanergy

Professor Martin Cormican the HSE's National Lead for Health Care Associated Infection on Covid at it once again.



Still pushing the HSE hand wash though, welcome them with a mask on Cormican FFS!

Imagine if he had made his above comment about hand washing instead of masks. ie. if your going to be handling things your guests are going to be handling in the afternoon there is no need to wash your hands in the morning. This lad is dangerous, outlined in part1 of thread.



It's no wonder the sign writer for rte news was pulling that face.

odyssey06

Sweden will recommend face masks on public transport at certain times, said Prime Minister Stefan Löfven as he announced a series of new coronavirus measures on Friday afternoon.
https://www.thelocal.se/20201218/swedish-prime-minister-stefan-lofven-press-conference-coronavirus

Seanergy

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sweden will recommend face masks on public transport at certain times, said Prime Minister Stefan Löfven as he announced a series of new coronavirus measures on Friday afternoon.
https://www.thelocal.se/20201218/swedish-prime-minister-stefan-lofven-press-conference-coronavirus

I didn't and don't think mask wearing is mandatory in Sweedish health care settings yet anyway U-TURN made for public transport, ball rolling.

The new guidelines for face masks will be presented by the Public Health Agency before many people return to work after the Christmas break on January 7th, its director-general Carlson said.

They will specify among other things which face masks to use and at what times they should be used, and will be a recommendation only.

Sweden has for months been one of few countries affected by a second wave of the coronavirus that has not recommended wearing face masks outside of healthcare settings, despite the WHO advising the use of face masks as a complementary measure in situations where it is not possible to keep physical distance to others.

BrianD3

If everyone was wearing FFP2/FFP3 non valved respirators now would we be in a better position. Unlike the start of the pandemic, there are plenty of them on sale in hardware shops. Respirators are a tighter fit and don't slip down off the nose like surgical masks do. When I am out and about I observe what is being worn and only about 1 in 100 people I see are wearing respirators.

Seanergy

BrianD3 wrote: »

If everyone was wearing FFP2/FFP3 non valved respirators now would we be in a better position. Unlike the start of the pandemic, there are plenty of them on sale in hardware shops. Respirators are a tighter fit and don't slip down off the nose like surgical masks do. When I am out and about I observe what is being worn and only about 1 in 100 people I see are wearing respirators.

We would be in a better position if everyone upped their mask game but as much as you see a scatter of masks of a higher grade to surgical masks in hardware shops there simply is not enough to fill the void.

The WHO changed mask guidance two weeks ago, there is a link a few pages back, encouraging certain groups to reach for an FFP2/FFP3 grade mask. Are we or are we not operating inline with WHO advice? Surely the gov should be upping their mask game and communicating this to the general population.

The bottom line is there simply is not enough supply in the hardware shops for everyone in Ireland to be reaching for the higher grade masks just as there is not enough supply in the world for the WHO to announce airborne transmission plays a major role.

Masks should not be slipping off the nose. HCW's use a buddy system for a reason when it comes to PPE and it works. We could have introduced a buddy system here very easily in the begining if the gov had acted differently. They allowed and some would argue encouraged a void to emerge between the people who were genuinely trying to get to as you say it 'a better position' and the people who were anti mask. Now you can't even look at someone let alone say hey your mask is slipping, it isn't on correctly.

If we all upped our game we would be in a better position, this thread included.

ps BTW some FFP2/FFP3 valved respirators out preform some surgical masks when it comes to aerosol output, link a few pages back.

Pitch n Putt

Seanergy wrote: »

We would be in a better position if everyone upped their mask game but as much as you see a scatter of masks of a higher grade to surgical masks in hardware shops there simply is not enough to fill the void.

The WHO changed mask guidance two weeks ago, there is a link a few pages back, encouraging certain groups to reach for an FFP2/FFP3 grade mask. Are we or are we not operating inline with WHO advice? Surely the gov should be upping their mask game and communicating this to the general population.

The bottom line is there simply is not enough supply in the hardware shops for everyone in Ireland to be reaching for the higher grade masks just as there is not enough supply in the world for the WHO to announce airborne transmission plays a major role.

Masks should not be slipping off the nose. HCW's use a buddy system for a reason when it comes to PPE and it works. We could have introduced a buddy system here very easily in the begining if the gov had acted differently. They allowed and some would argue encouraged a void to emerge between the people who were genuinely trying to get to as you say it 'a better position' and the people who were anti mask. Now you can't even look at someone let alone say hey your mask is slipping, it isn't on correctly.

If we all upped our game we would be in a better position, this thread included.

ps BTW some FFP2/FFP3 valved respirators out preform some surgical masks when it comes to aerosol output, link a few pages back.

:pac:

xhomelezz

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

:pac:

Gone playing Pacman? Good choice.

MadYaker

Irish Stones

Seanergy wrote: »

Masks should not be slipping off the nose.

Sometimes I wonder whether Nature put our nose in the wrong position on our faces. On the chin, it would have been much better, mouth and nose will always be covered, slipping wouldn't be an issue.

Away With The Fairies

So a new strain in the UK that is more transmissible, wonder will they do anything about those stupid plastic visors?

Just a more transmissible strain that's probably here already. They can ban flights from the UK so quickly but how long will it take them to ban those visors now? They are highly dangerous and the last thing we need is a virus that transmits more easily.

I don't know if this belongs in the ranting and raving thread.

Thats me

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

So a new strain in the UK that is more transmissible, wonder will they do anything about those stupid plastic visors?

Visors are not considered as protective face cover anymore.

speckle

Really annoying at times...I am a sneezing expert..had at least 50 this morning..nothing unusual about that for me.
Been thinking if on average it is even only 20 a day thats c7200 a year. I thank profusely whoever invented hankys, toilet roll and antihistamines etc.Triggered by smells/perfume, dander,pollen, chemicals, dust etc etc
I am having a great time this year

Away With The Fairies

Thats me wrote: »

Visors are not considered as protective face cover anymore.

I know that but why are people still wearing them?

tupenny

" boring at this stage"

Wow

Thats me

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

I know that but why are people still wearing them?

In public places, home gatherings and busy areas outside people expected to wear masks. If they wearing shields in addendum to masks in public places - nothing wrong with it, shield will provide additional protection against droplets.

In other places they can wear everything they want.

odyssey06

speckle wrote: »

Really annoying at times...I am a sneezing expert..had at least 50 this morning..nothing unusual about that for me.
Been thinking if on average it is even only 20 a day thats c7200 a year. I thank profusely whoever invented hankys, toilet roll and antihistamines etc.Triggered by smells/perfume, dander,pollen, chemicals, dust etc etc
I am having a great time this year

Did the mask help at all with filtering out any of your triggers and reducing the sneeze count?

ginoginelli

Thats me wrote: »

In public places, home gatherings and busy areas outside people expected to wear masks. If they wearing shields in addendum to masks in public places - nothing wrong with it, shield will provide additional protection against droplets.

In other places they can wear everything they want.

People are still just wearing shields though. Its particularly prevalent in retail. NPHET have very strongly come out against their use but the governments messaging as once again been poor.

Unfortunately people are just too thick and will keep wearing them regardless. So along with the clearer messaging we need strict enforcment as well.

namloc1980

Those face shields just look ridiculous. How anyone thinks they are of use is begins me.