Harry Dunn death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683389#Comment_119683389

I would think she will, with the assurance she'll not do a stretch. The alternative could be an international arrest warrant, which could be a bit tricky given her husband's work. She may still get immunity if non UK countries, but it'll be a hassle and an open sore for the 'special' relationship. I dare say there will be a diplomatic solution.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683414#Comment_119683414

I meant more leave the US to take up a sentence in the UK (if one is given).

It would be interesting to see what sentences have been for comparable crimes in the UK.

Hotblack Desiato

The "sentence" for dangerous driving killing a friend of mine was a £500 fine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683792#Comment_119683792

I think she has to go to the UK to give evidence, she won’t know the verdict.

But unless there’s evidence she was hearing voices and deliberately aimed for him there is zero chance of her getting a sentence. Her licence to drive in the UK will be revoked, but I’d say the chances of her husband being deployed in the UK again are slim.

Hotblack Desiato

The "I didn't mean it" defence should not be accepted as a defence. Adults need to accept the consequences of their actions.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690684#Comment_119690684

Yeah but this is a show trial, not a normal trial. International security is at stake. The judge will be aware that their job is to not impose a custodial sentence.

If she shows up for the trial, then it will need to be worked out in advance what the charge is and that there's no custodial sentence if/when she's found guilty.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691180#Comment_119691180

We know what the charge is, it's causing death by dangerous driving.

What we don't know is if she'll be convicted or, if convicted, will there be a custodial sentence?

My feeling is that there won't be a custodial sentence as there aren't really any aggravating factors that I'm aware of. She didn't set out to kill anyone. She wasn't speeding, drinking, on the phone etc. I'm not sure if this would count as a mitigating factor but she had only been living in the UK for three weeks prior to the accident and had instinctively driven on the right hand side of the road.

To be honest, I'm surprised that Sacoolas is engaging with the trial. Correct me if I'm wrong but if she had diplomatic immunity, couldn't she have chosen to ignore the trial/charge? The US already refused an extradition request from the UK.

I feel very sorry for Harry Dunn's family but I think this was an accident and a custodial sentence is possibly unwarranted. I know that view might make me unpopular here but that's how I see it. It was an accident with tragic consequences, but an accident nonetheless.

Hotblack Desiato

A suspended sentence, disqualification and a fine is probably as far as it could possibly go.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119696270#Comment_119696270

She didn’t have diplomatic immunity, she said she did and then left the country.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699058#Comment_119699058

Ah, these things aren't black and white. It's easy to smudge it. They said she had diplomatic immunity (meaning she had it at the time they were speaking, but not necessarily the time she hit Harry). Her husband is a spy so it makes sense to extend immunity to spouses and family in principle. Immunity might not have been granted in advance of the accident, but she had it after the accident.

The British didn't want the fight so they were happy to let her go on the impression that she might have immunity (now or in the futire).

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699058#Comment_119699058

It's not quite as simple as you are portraying. It's an awful grey area. Both the US and the UK Government said she had diplomatic immunity at the time of the incident. On November 24th 2020 the UK High Court actually reaffirmed that she had diplomatic immunity at the time of the incident.

A court case in the US in 2021 throws a little bit of doubt on that UK High Court decision because it seems a lot depends on whether Sacoolas was the spouse of a spy or was a spy herself. It's all very muddy.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it's certainly not clear cut.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/24/harry-dunn-parents-lose-high-court-immunity-case

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699151#Comment_119699151

Interesting, that’s not how it was reported at the time.

Ten of Swords

Sentenced to 8 months - suspended for 12 months

Basically walking away free

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119697525#Comment_119697525

And that's what she got basically. Irish standard sentence; the UK usually goes a bit further though.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974605#Comment_119974605

I thought she wasn’t even in court? She can video link from the US and never return.

Ten of Swords

Yep, here's the judge reading out the sentence to a laptop

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-63909559

El_Duderino 09

I just hope this satisfies the family and they can begin to move on. This is a much better outcome than most people ever expected. Sacoolas is a good sport to take part in the trial at all. Totally voluntary for her.

BattleCorp

I doubt the family will be satisfied with that result to be honest but it's the result I expected. And I think it's probably the right result to be honest.

Beasty

The family have made it clear they are satisfied with the result, and that this woman carries a criminal conviction for the rest of her life

They did wonders to get this to court in the first place and this result brings some kind of closure for them

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976771#Comment_119976771

Their persistence and unwillingness to settle for some generic response from the Home Office about diplomatic immunity is admirable. At least they can say that they did everything that possibly could be done to bring his killer to Court, and secure a conviction. What a cowardly, wicked woman, she left him to die on the road, then refused to face justice, thankfully this conviction will weigh on her for a lifetime.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982697#Comment_119982697

She chose to take the conviction. She didn't have to take part in it at all. I'm sure the US government wasn't keen on her taking any part in a trial as it sets a precedent. She deserves credit for that, at least

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982856#Comment_119982856

I disagree. She deserves no credit. She should have chosen to remain in the UK.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699069#Comment_119699069

It's standard for family members to have diplomatic immunity. I held it due to a parent's assignment until I hit the age of 18 and had to turn in my diplomatic passport at that point.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984066#Comment_119984066

Ah, yeah but back in the real world, almost everyone would leave if they had the choice anf were encouraged by their governmentand the host government. Only on Boards, and other social media, would people claim they would voluntarily stay and face the music.

She did what most people would do in the same circumstances. It does t make it right, but it should be viewed in context.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984552#Comment_119984552

In considering the context, we can draw a distinction between what she is entitled to do, and what justice for the victim would look like. Her family having to fight for three years for justice for their son is the context most would view this, they lost their son in the real world.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984788#Comment_119984788

Do you think getting this contrived suspended sentence via video conference is a bad result after 3 years? I'm pretty sure it's unprecedented and better than try could have reasonably hoped.

But you can't exclude what she is entitled to do from the context because its part of the context. Most people who face prison don't have to perfectly legal option to fly home and avoid the trial. That's the Context here.

Potatoeman

https://www.thejournal.ie/luas-jervis-street-1402287-Apr2014/

I can’t find the sentencing for this but the guy didn’t go to jail and had his license suspended. Running a red light would be seen as more intentional than driving on the wrong side of the road when you’re a tourist. I don’t think we are in a place to point fingers at sentencing.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119987689#Comment_119987689

She wasn’t a tourist.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988480#Comment_119988480

Semantics.

The BBC reported that the Sacoolas family had only been in the UK for three weeks.

Also, she cooperated with the police at the scene of the accident. “she left him to die on the road” what do you mean by this? Are you mixing this up with another case?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048786#Comment_120048786

Could there be a circumstance in which details are more important than the death of a young person?

She wasn’t a tourist turning out of an airport after picking up a hire car, it has now been confirmed she is a State Dept operative working in the intelligence community, we can only assume that some preparation is done before a posting. And the fact she was there three weeks is ample time to familiarise yourself with the side of the road to drive on.

No, I am not mixing this up with another case. In their Civil suit in Virginia, his parents claim that she left the scene after the accident while he was on the side of the road, her representatives have said she left and went to the nearby airbase and called the police from there, and it was not her who called the ambulance, a passer by did, even though she had a phone .

Her representatives statement is on this article confirming that she left him on the road and went to the base to phone the police even though she had a phone. “Anne made calls to alert the police from the nearby air force base.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/sep/11/harry-dunn-death-sacoolas-drove-on-wrong-side-of-road-for-20-seconds

This is a more recent decision in the US where the Judge refused to throw out the case, and refused her application to change the report on her actions in relation to phoning emergency services.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/sacoolas.pdf