All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

PintOfView

pearcider wrote: »

Do you know how much money the wealthy have gained since lockdown? The estimates are 3.5 trillion globally mostly at the expense of the poorer workers who don’t have a government or multi national pay check to rely on and have seen their businesses completely destroyed I’m talking about the service industry, the waitresses and bar men, the music business the clubs and the taxi drivers. They got screwed by a kleptocracy that pretends it’s all about saving the 82 year olds. It’s a sick joke.

Here’s the US data for you .

https://americansfortaxfairness.org/wp-content/uploads/2020-5-21-Billionaires-Press-Release-at-Two-month-Covid-Pandemic-FINAL.pdf

It’s a disgrace and the crime of the century I reckon. Let’s not forget Moderna the biggest biotech IPO in history and they never had one drug approved before emergency use authorisation for covid 19. Their market cap was down 50% from the IPO before covid came along. Just another coincidence that made some well connected shareholders extremely rich.

You're confusing me a bit now.
Earlier on you were talking about how we were all going to be turned into communists.
Yet here you are now running down the US Capitalist system!

It's fairly clear to see how the wealth of these people went up, it's simply because the share prices of Amazon, and Microsoft, and the others, went up a lot since the start of the pandemic. One reason is likely due to the technology of those companies being used for working from home.
Even normal people who had shares in those companies will have seen their wealth go up!

I doubt if any one of those people really care how much they're worth, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are giving a lot of their wealth away, and the others have so much they'll never spend it all anyway!

What do you suggest should be done about these, and other, multi billionaires?

King Mob

pearcider wrote: »

Remember folks it’s all about saving the 80 year olds. Or something. Just hang in there eh 6 weeks to flatten the curve.

I take it that you're running away from my points again.

That's fine. It's par for the course for conspiracy theorists.

So how come you have to be so dishonest about things?
Why did you claim that the virus was a type of flu and that it wasn't dangerous?
Why did you claim that lockdowns weren't effective in slowing the spread of the virus?

How are you claims of a global takeover by secret communists/nazis/satanists/whatever not the same kind of scaremongering you're accusing the media of?

PintOfView

pearcider wrote: »

Remember folks it’s all about saving the 80 year olds. Or something. Just hang in there eh 6 weeks to flatten the curve.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-covid-vaccine-passport-g7-b1793913.html

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/03/gove-hints-at-vaccine-passport-app/

I don't remember anyone claiming there would be just one curve to flatten!
This time last year I distinctly remember some people saying this could go on for several years until a vaccine was available.
Now that a vaccine is available, quicker than expected, it should change the whole picture, and protect the elderly and vulnerable.

The vaccine cert is an obvious idea, ie. people who are vaccinated should be able to gather together in crowds with much less risk of having the virus in the first place, and of passing it on, and of being in danger if they did catch it, etc.
Implementing and managing such a scheme is another day's work, and we'll have to see how that pans out!

PintOfView

PintOfView wrote: »

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are giving a lot of their wealth away

Bill Gates' net worth has doubled since becoming a "philanthropist" They're more strategic investments, as opposed to giveaways. I don't have a problem with that. It's his money, he can do what he likes. He's a very shrewd businessman; always has been. But I wish people would stop with the "Bill Gates gives away all his money for nothing" nonsense. He's making a fortune from the pandemic, too.

Buffet mostly "gives away" his money through the Gates Foundation as well. His net worth has also gone up significantly since he started giving it all away :pac:

robinph

pearcider wrote: »

Do you know how much money the wealthy have gained since lockdown? The estimates are 3.5 trillion globally mostly at the expense of the poorer workers who don’t have a government or multi national pay check to rely on and have seen their businesses completely destroyed I’m talking about the service industry, the waitresses and bar men, the music business the clubs and the taxi drivers. They got screwed by a kleptocracy that pretends it’s all about saving the 82 year olds. It’s a sick joke.

Here’s the US data for you .

https://americansfortaxfairness.org/wp-content/uploads/2020-5-21-Billionaires-Press-Release-at-Two-month-Covid-Pandemic-FINAL.pdf

It’s a disgrace and the crime of the century I reckon. Let’s not forget Moderna the biggest biotech IPO in history and they never had one drug approved before emergency use authorisation for covid 19. Their market cap was down 50% from the IPO before covid came along. Just another coincidence that made some well connected shareholders extremely rich.

How does making the general public poorer work economically for generating more wealth for Microsoft or Amazon in the long term?

Are you separately claiming that Moderna is in on the conspiracy as well? What exactly are you accusing them of having done to bring about the pandemic?

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bill Gates' net worth has doubled since becoming a "philanthropist" They're more strategic investments, as opposed to giveaways. I don't have a problem with that. It's his money, he can do what he likes. He's a very shrewd businessman; always has been. But I wish people would stop with the "Bill Gates gives away all his money for nothing" nonsense. He's making a fortune from the pandemic, too.

Buffet mostly "gives away" his money through the Gates Foundation as well. His net worth has also gone up significantly since he started giving it all away :pac:

Their net worth will be tied up in lots of shares, which they can't cash in much of without crashing that stock or the whole stock market and I belive they need to declare in advance to stock markets before doing so. If the share price of Amazon goes up because lots of people are stuck at home and need to buy stuff whilst shops are shut that might increase Jeff Bezos net worth, but it makes absolutely zero difference to his bank balance.

PintOfView

Deleted User wrote: »

Bill Gates' net worth has doubled since becoming a "philanthropist" They're more strategic investments, as opposed to giveaways. I don't have a problem with that. It's his money, he can do what he likes. He's a very shrewd businessman; always has been. But I wish people would stop with the "Bill Gates gives away all his money for nothing" nonsense. He's making a fortune from the pandemic, too.

Buffet mostly "gives away" his money through the Gates Foundation as well. His net worth has also gone up significantly since he started giving it all away :pac:

From a quick google just now the first hits come back with Bill Gates net worth today as $130 billion, and if he had not given any away it would be $175 billion today (I would not be taking that as fact till I did more research, but don't have the time now)

As someone claiming to 'know' about Bill Gates, can you tell me the following:
- What is the bulk of his money invested in?
- How did his net worth double?
- How much money does he give away / has he given away, and to whom?

It's easy to throw claims around that you read on fringe web sites,
but in today's world it takes little time to verify these things for yourself.
I don't have time to do it just now,
but I'd challenge you to get the actual information, and put it up here, along with where you get it from !!

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

Bill Gates' net worth has doubled since becoming a "philanthropist" They're more strategic investments, as opposed to giveaways. I don't have a problem with that. It's his money, he can do what he likes. He's a very shrewd businessman; always has been. But I wish people would stop with the "Bill Gates gives away all his money for nothing" nonsense. He's making a fortune from the pandemic, too.

Bill Gates again. Hilarious how conspiracy theorists loathe one of the most charitable figures in the world.

He's giving away a high percentage of his wealth. Rich people don't sit on a pile of money, they sit mostly on assets and investments that accrue value, if those assets double in value, it just means they can give away more.

Dohnjoe

Rich people giving their wealth to charity seems to drive the conspiracy community crazy, gee I wonder why

LessOutragePlz

PintOfView wrote: »

From a quick google just now the first hits come back with Bill Gates net worth today as $130 billion, and if he had not given any away it would be $175 billion today (I would not be taking that as fact till I did more research, but don't have the time now)

As someone claiming to 'know' about Bill Gates, can you tell me the following:
- What is the bulk of his money invested in?
- How did his net worth double?
- How much money does he give away / has he given away, and to whom?

It's easy to throw claims around that you read on fringe web sites,
but in today's world it takes little time to verify these things for yourself.
I don't have time to do it just now,
but I'd challenge you to get the actual information, and put it up here, along with where you get it from !!

He's done some good but he's also doing some harm to people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNM833K22LM

But aslong as he's giving away billions it's grand right:rolleyes:

Dohnjoe

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

He's done some good but he's also doing some harm to people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNM833K22LM

But aslong as he's giving away billions it's grand right:rolleyes:

I watched that, very debatable. She's from the "all GMO's are evil" camp, ergo anyone advocating their use is "bad". Her heart might be in the right place, but her opinions are outdated and fundamentalist.

LessOutragePlz

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I watched that, very debatable. She's from the "all GMO's are evil" camp, ergo anyone advocating their use is "bad". Her heart might be in the right place, but her opinions are outdated and fundamentalist.

Do you not see any potential issues with GMOs at all? and therefore Bill Gates promoting them is a big issue.

For example:

"As a farmer in the USA, I buy non GMO seeds and plant them. Should a bee land on a GMO plant and then land on my plant it will cause my plant to produce GMO fruit/vegetable. Since I did not pay for a GMO seed, if they find that my plants are GMO Monsanto can sue me and take everything I have. However, I can not sue them when my crop turns GMO!"

Not trying to derail the thread as this is about covid-19 so I'll leave it there.

PintOfView

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Do you not see any potential issues with GMOs at all? and therefore Bill Gates promoting them is a big issue.

For example:

"As a farmer in the USA, I buy non GMO seeds and plant them. Should a bee land on a GMO plant and then land on my plant it will cause my plant to produce GMO fruit/vegetable. Since I did not pay for a GMO seed, if they find that my plants are GMO Monsanto can sue me and take everything I have. However, I can not sue them when my crop turns GMO!"

Not trying to derail the thread as this is about covid-19 so I'll leave it there.

I don't have time to look into that, however I would possibly have some sympathy for that view point (ie. concern at Monsanto suing people if GMO genes get into other varieties of the crop). As you say, it's another thread though.

However, even if Bill Gates is in favour of GMO it doesn't mean that everything else he does is bad, does it?
And how is he connected to Monsanto, or GMO?

EyesClosed

What has bill gates got to do with all covid measures are going to be permanent?

King Mob

PintOfView wrote: »

I don't have time to look into that, however I would possibly have some sympathy for that view point (ie. concern at Monsanto suing people if GMO genes get into other varieties of the crop). As you say, it's another thread though.

Here's a good summary of that kind of situation.
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4759

Dohnjoe

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Do you not see any potential issues with GMOs at all? and therefore Bill Gates promoting them is a big issue.

For example:

"As a farmer in the USA, I buy non GMO seeds and plant them. Should a bee land on a GMO plant and then land on my plant it will cause my plant to produce GMO fruit/vegetable. Since I did not pay for a GMO seed, if they find that my plants are GMO Monsanto can sue me and take everything I have. However, I can not sue them when my crop turns GMO!"

Not trying to derail the thread as this is about covid-19 so I'll leave it there.

Not to veer off-topic, but just for the example above, trace amounts are typically not in violation.

Back to Covid, many conspiracy theorists are simply "anti-rich-people" and anti-science (and anti-vax) so there's a lot of paranoia and hate thrown at Bill Gates. Yes, it's literally that dumb. Valid criticism is not involved.

The Nal

EyesClosed wrote: »

What has bill gates got to do with all covid measures are going to be permanent?

Bill Gates has implanted microchips into humans with the vaccine. He can now track us with 5G. Thats the reason for social distancing, because 5G location data will be more accurate with people standing a bit apart.

EyesClosed

The Nal wrote: »

Bill Gates has implanted microchips into humans with the vaccine. He can now track us with 5G. Thats the reason for social distancing, because 5G location data will be more accurate with people standing a bit apart.

OK so we are headed back to that?
With no evidence of covid measures being permanent?

The Nal

EyesClosed wrote: »

OK so we are headed back to that?
With no evidence of covid measures being permanent?

Thats still the theory for some people.

People who go around angrily filming 5G masts on their phone with the location turned on telling their audience that we're going to be tracked.

Pinch Flat

The Nal wrote: »

Thats still the theory for some people.

People who go around angrily filming 5G masts on their phone with the location turned on telling their audience that we're going to be tracked.

Yeah you're really dealing with a special group of people that totally eschew science. mate of mine is hard core conspiracy theorist. 5G. The great reset. Bill gates. George soros. Chemtrails. The full 9 yards.

All over social media about the scamdemic / plandemic (I assume this means the same thing). The fake PCR tests (apparently they use the wrong cycles). Can never remember him being particularly into science but hes seemed to have built up some specialists knowledge over the past 12 months - mostly from Facebook and WhatsApp it would appear. Messages me with the latest conspiracy stuff on YouTube or whatever. Almost evangelical about it " dont say I didn't warn you"

Hospital numbers are all manipulated - I interact and tell him about my wifes three dead nursing colleagues, others in intensive care and one on a ventilator for weeks. "Its just a flu, 99.99% recovery rate". On the vaccines hes not taking it "no idea what's in it and I like my DNA the way it is thanks very much". Then other posts on social media fondly remember the days being off his tits at a festival on yokes. The same ones that have been made in someone's attic with god knows what and more than likely smuggled up an arsehole or two.

pearcider

PintOfView wrote: »

You're confusing me a bit now.
Earlier on you were talking about how we were all going to be turned into communists.
Yet here you are now running down the US Capitalist system!

It's fairly clear to see how the wealth of these people went up, it's simply because the share prices of Amazon, and Microsoft, and the others, went up a lot since the start of the pandemic. One reason is likely due to the technology of those companies being used for working from home.
Even normal people who had shares in those companies will have seen their wealth go up!

I doubt if any one of those people really care how much they're worth, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are giving a lot of their wealth away, and the others have so much they'll never spend it all anyway!

What do you suggest should be done about these, and other, multi billionaires?

If you take that as me “running down the US capitalist system”, then you clearly haven’t a clue what I’m talking about. We don’t have free market capitalism. We have crony capitalism at best. I suggest you read The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek which was written in the 1940s to see how far down that road we are.

According to Marx, Communism follows the death of capitalism and free market capitalism is now on its last knees with a handful of mega corporations in control of all the means of production but reliant on government money printing to continue demand and roll over their debts at the expense of the ordinary citizen. This nexus is more accurately described as fascism. So my thinking is completely consistent.

The lockdown has massively progressed this narcissistic goal of the elite ie central planning of the economy and total control of a surveillance society by destroying huge amounts of small businesses and brazenly reinforcing the power of the state over the consciousness of the people.

If you think the further centralisation of economic and social power ends well for the average person you are even more deluded than I thought.

As for the billionaires giving away their money, don’t make me laugh. They set up NGOs, charities and trusts principally to evade taxes and to further their agendas even after they are long in the ground. Which is what you’d expect from your typical egomaniac.

PintOfView

pearcider wrote: »

If you take that as me “running down the US capitalist system”, then you clearly haven’t a clue what I’m talking about. We don’t have free market capitalism. We have crony capitalism at best. I suggest you read The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek which was written in the 1940s to see how far down that road we are.

According to Marx, Communism follows the death of capitalism and free market capitalism is now on its last knees with a handful of mega corporations in control of all the means of production but reliant on government money printing to continue demand and roll over their debts at the expense of the ordinary citizen. This nexus is more accurately described as fascism. So my thinking is completely consistent.

The lockdown has massively progressed this narcissistic goal of the elite ie central planning of the economy and total control of a surveillance society by destroying huge amounts of small businesses and brazenly reinforcing the power of the state over the consciousness of the people.

If you think the further centralisation of economic and social power ends well for the average person you are even more deluded than I thought.

As for the billionaires giving away their money, don’t make me laugh. They set up NGOs, charities and trusts principally to evade taxes and to further their agendas even after they are long in the ground. Which is what you’d expect from your typical egomaniac.

I haven't read up on Marx, and communism, and fascism, etc., so am just running on general knowledge of those.
What's the difference between free market capitalism, and what we have now?

And just to be devil's advocate, how are the elites and large corporations, you think are taking over, not the result of free market capitalism?

Andrewf20

pearcider wrote: »

If you take that as me “running down the US capitalist system”, then you clearly haven’t a clue what I’m talking about. We don’t have free market capitalism. We have crony capitalism at best. I suggest you read The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek which was written in the 1940s to see how far down that road we are.

According to Marx, Communism follows the death of capitalism and free market capitalism is now on its last knees with a handful of mega corporations in control of all the means of production but reliant on government money printing to continue demand and roll over their debts at the expense of the ordinary citizen. This nexus is more accurately described as fascism. So my thinking is completely consistent.

The lockdown has massively progressed this narcissistic goal of the elite ie central planning of the economy and total control of a surveillance society by destroying huge amounts of small businesses and brazenly reinforcing the power of the state over the consciousness of the people.

If you think the further centralisation of economic and social power ends well for the average person you are even more deluded than I thought.

As for the billionaires giving away their money, don’t make me laugh. They set up NGOs, charities and trusts principally to evade taxes and to further their agendas even after they are long in the ground. Which is what you’d expect from your typical egomaniac.

I cant see how communism would come after capitalism after what happened with the soviet union in the 1970s / 80s.

Mega corporations do seem to be getting bigger (Bayer - Monsanto etc) however there are reports of the US lawmakers looking into reining in the monopolizing power of some if the giants like Amazon and Facebook which, if there is any meat to it, can be seen as a good thing.

In the western world at least, we have never had it so good. We are getting richer and more stable, however there is a fear that the consumerism bubble needs to be burst in order to cut green house emissions unless renewable energies can catch up.

People dont seem to have the inner desire to consume less so it may have to forced upon them by government (would this ever happen I wonder). How do you make people consume less? You make everything much more expensive. The knock on affect of this is potential mass redundancy, less money in peoples pockets and a poorer society which could lead to mass instability in the economy. The idea of mass surveillance (which is already in place to an extent) will help keep people in check more in the future in light of above.

Does anybody else have an alternative narrative to how it may play out? ( I dont believe the green energy movement will keep pace with energy demands in the future with current spending habits).

Dohnjoe

pearcider wrote: »

As for the billionaires giving away their money, don’t make me laugh.

They are, it's just that it's not compatible with your extreme world view of rich people being cartoonishly evil so you reject it.

Back to Covid, you claim lockdowns don't reduce the spread of Covid. It's an airborne virus, it's far more likely to spread among workers in an office, than if those workers are at home, you understand that right?

Or you think it spreads another way? if so, how?

sabat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They are, it's just that it's not compatible with your extreme world view of rich people being cartoonishly evil so you reject it.

Back to Covid, you claim lockdowns don't reduce the spread of Covid. It's an airborne virus, it's far more likely to spread among workers in an office, than if those workers are at home, you understand that right?

Or you think it spreads another way? if so, how?

Here's a good thread on your idol Bill Gates:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1377301521579266049.html

I'm still interested in hearing how someone can simultaneously give all their money away, double it and make themselves the largest owner of farmland in the USA

runawaybishop

sabat wrote: »

Here's a good thread on your idol Bill Gates:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1377301521579266049.html

I'm still interested in hearing how someone can simultaneously give all their money away, double it and make themselves the largest owner of farmland in the USA

A good thread? It's obviously completely biased, why on earth would anyone in their right mind use that claptrap as a source of information?

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

Here's a good thread on your idol Bill Gates:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1377301521579266049.html

I'm still interested in hearing how someone can simultaneously give all their money away, double it and make themselves the largest owner of farmland in the USA

It's a rabbit hole blog of complete crazy involving Nazi's and everything by some nutcase on Twitter. Do you not have a filter for any of this stuff?

PintOfView

sabat wrote: »

Here's a good thread on your idol Bill Gates:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1377301521579266049.html

I'm still interested in hearing how someone can simultaneously give all their money away, double it and make themselves the largest owner of farmland in the USA

Have you read anything else about Bill Gates, apart from what you read on those web sites (which I would call questionable)?

Are you aware most of his money is in Shares?
Just looking at the Dow Jones, it's 3 times higher today than it was in 2010.
So if you had 40 billion in shares in 2010, you'd have 120 billion today, without doing anything!!

And if you gave 40 billion away you'd still have 80 billion, plus the non-share stuff you had!!

See how easy it is

Also, I didn't see anything about him being the largest owner of farmland in the USA, but he does seem to have some horse ranches, and owns a lot of John Deere shares (tractors)!!

SlowBlowin

PintOfView wrote: »

Also, I didn't see anything about him being the largest owner of farmland in the USA, but he does seem to have some horse ranches, and owns a lot of John Deere shares (tractors)!!

I agree with your post - on the farmland thing read this:

https://www.ft.com/content/d158779e-368b-482b-9734-b06cf7fde382

pearcider

PintOfView wrote: »

I haven't read up on Marx, and communism, and fascism, etc., so am just running on general knowledge of those.
What's the difference between free market capitalism, and what we have now?

And just to be devil's advocate, how are the elites and large corporations, you think are taking over, not the result of free market capitalism?

We do not have free market capitalism and we haven’t had it for 50 years. We have crony capitalism where quasi monopolies dominate and act to crush or subsume all competition with the support of government. The main area they do this is the financial system administered by the central banks. Once you control that you control everything else. A good place to start would be the book Fed Up by Danielle M Boothe.

Since the establishment of the Fed in 1913 but in particular since the end of Bretton Woods in 1971, free market capitalism has been in terminal decline with the west losing its manufacturing base to mostly centrally planned economies in the east. The middle class has shrunk and become indebted and the gap between them and the elite has grown ever wider. There have been over 20 financial crises since 1971 and each one ends with the elite further enriching themselves at the expense of the ordinary worker. This is called the Cantillon Effect after the famous 18th century economist. Read Goliath: The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy by Matt Stoller.

The pandemic has extended most governments overreach into every area of public and private existence. What happens when governments assume that all human problems can be solved by simply finding the right policy settings? That is the socialist nightmare that Hayek feared.