All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

PintOfView

buzzerxx wrote: »

My source isn't "Facebook" my source is a huge network of truthers who just happen to use Facebook as well!
You should be ashamed of yourself defending greedy, evil megalomaniacs and buying into the Fear.

You would be well advised to fact check anything you read on 'truther' web sites.
There was an example last week of a truther putting up a video of something Fauci said in Jan 2020, before the pandemic,
and making it seem he said it recently. So a completely false and misleading bit of propaganda.
If it's wasn't for another poster, who was able to find the original video, the lie would have remained just that, a lie, and certainly not the 'truth'.
So, from what I've seen, the truthers need to be fact checked, like all media, but more so!

As someone else asked, give us some links to these sites!

And noone is defending evil megalomaniacs by explaining misunderstandings in things some posters put up.
Would you prefer that if I see something that doesn't make sense, I just leave that mistaken information up there unchallenged?

Notmything

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why is Sweden currently allowing everyone into bars, pubs and restaurants? If Sweden, and other countries, for that matter, but Sweden is the most prominent example in Western Europe of a country that's been open since March 2020, can do it then why can't the countries that are set to roll out vaccine passports?

Because....Sweden.....is......an...... independent......country. unless it's part of the global conspiracy, in which case it's doing a piss poor job of going along with the conspiracy by having its own rules.

This, and this is the tricky bit, means it can make its own rules. Just like Ireland, Spain, France can. These rules are drawn up to meet the specific, individual requirements of that country. They may not make sense to people (you) in other countries but hopefully to that specific country they do.

PintOfView

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is Sweden currently allowing everyone into bars, pubs and restaurants? If Sweden, and other countries, for that matter, but Sweden is the most prominent example in Western Europe of a country that's been open since March 2020, can do it then why can't the countries that are set to roll out vaccine passports?

It's a fair question. I don't know. However I also don't know if they (Sweden) limit the number of people in bars, or who goes to bars, etc.
For eg. there are lots of small bars in France, but they're very different to our pubs, and are much smaller, with much lower numbers of people.

There will be an explanation for the Swedish experience, as it's not magic, I just don't know what it is.
Every country is making it's own decisions, based on its own experience.
We say what happened in Ireland in March and April last year, and again in December and January just gone.
We're reacting to what we found in our country.
Similarly France and Germany has just tightened restrictions, based on what's happening there at the moment.

The logic behind the vaccine cert/passport is pretty clear.
Do you think the reasoning behind it is not clear?

(also, when you say Sweden is "example of a country that's been open since March 2020" that's not the full picture. They were more open that us, but they still had restrictions, and they did have more people die that us, etc)

Notmything

Notmything wrote: »

Beause....Sweden.....is......an...... independent......country. unless it's part of the global conspiracy, in which case it's doing a piss poor job of going along with the conspiracy by having its own rules.

This, and this is the tricky bit, means it can make its own rules. Just like Ireland, Spain, France can. These rules are drawn up to meet the specific, individual requirements of that country. They may not make sense to people (you) in other countries but hopefully to that specific country they do.

Let me rephrase: It is being argued that it's not safe to allow unvaccinated people into restaurants, bars, etc, and that that is the justification for vaccine passports, but it has been safe to do exactly that in Sweden for over a year. It has nothing to do with "different countries have different laws". It has been safe to do the exact thing in Sweden for over a year that is apparently unsafe to do in Ireland and other countries. It's another example of an absence of logic. A bit like the mask being mandatory in the countryside when alone in Spain, but not being mandatory when alone in the countryside in Sweden, which was also answered with "different countries have different laws" and ergo debunked. It's just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, in my opinion. It's clear that there's no logic to the masks in the countryside thing, but if people say that there isn't then they'd have to agree with the so-called conspiracy theorists.

PintOfView

PintOfView wrote: »

It's a fair question. I don't know. However I also don't know if they (Sweden) limit the number of people in bars, or who goes to bars, etc.
For eg. there are lots of small bars in France, but they're very different to our pubs, and are much smaller, with much lower numbers of people.

There will be an explanation for the Swedish experience, as it's not magic, I just don't know what it is.
Every country is making it's own decisions, based on its own experience.
We say what happened in Ireland in March and April last year, and again in December and January just gone.
We're reacting to what we found in our country.
Similarly France and Germany has just tightened restrictions, based on what's happening there at the moment.

The logic behind the vaccine cert/passport is pretty clear.
Do you think the reasoning behind it is not clear?

Thank you for the polite reply.

There are limits on numbers in bars, but they are always full. The only discernible restriction in restaurants and bars is a bit of distance between tables. There appears to be no limit on numbers in cafés. They are always packed. I am guessing that because of alcohol it was decided that restrictions were more important for bars than cafés.

The main difference in approach between Sweden and Ireland must be down the healthcare system.

I understand the logic to a vaccine passport, but I am against them because it means people who don't take the vaccine would be unable to take part in society. I also don't think they would, if introduced, be temporary. According to a model, it is estimated that the UK will reach herd immunity on Monday. Even if that model is wrong the UK must be close to reaching herd immunity. Case numbers and deaths are on the floor and yet a vaccine passport system is set to be rolled out. And don't forget that Johnson, Hancock, Give et al were ruling out vaccine passports while the vaccine passport system was in late stage development. Do you think there's any justification for restrictions in the UK? Domestically, I mean. I can understand caution regarding international travel.

Fighting Tao

I must be on ignore by Gortanna.. How did the rest of the critical thinking people here avoid it?

Professor Moriarty

Notmything wrote: »

That's just someone asking for money, does she have a site where she lays out her evidence or research which supports what she is claiming?

As in evidence and research, not just "it's true cause I said so"

I read all of her websites in full. In fact, she's not claiming anything other than to challenge law based on a "Right to Bodily Integrity" As reasons why, her websites offer nothing other than rants against the 'unfairness' of Covid-19 restrictions. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever. Zero, nada, zilch.

Professor Moriarty

buzzerxx wrote: »

Sure, here's one
https://ichr.ie/gofundme-campaign/

What exactly is this truther's truth?

Notmything

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let me rephrase: It is being argued that it's not safe to allow unvaccinated people into restaurants, bars, etc, and that that is the justification for vaccine passports, but it has been safe to do exactly that in Sweden for over a year. It has nothing to do with "different countries have different laws". It has been safe to do the exact thing in Sweden for over a year that is apparently unsafe to do in Ireland and other countries. It's another example of an absence of logic. A bit like the mask being mandatory in the countryside when alone in Spain, but not being mandatory when alone in the countryside in Sweden, which was also answered with "different countries have different laws" and ergo debunked. It's just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, in my opinion. It's clear that there's no logic to the masks in the countryside thing, but if people say that there isn't then they'd have to agree with the so-called conspiracy theorists.

Same thing, different countries different rules. Sweden have one approach to managing covid, other countries have a different approach.

It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp. Unless it can't be grasped for clutching at straws.

buzzerxx

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Would you have a link to a website of one of these truthers?

Do you think its wise for someone that has strong evidence of corruption, tyranny, oppression, fraud, peadophile child trafficking rings, and all the other abhorrent things capable by mankind, would have a website?

Anyhow those that do are censored or taken down regularly and the owners are ''commiting suicide''at an alarming rate.

Professor Moriarty

buzzerxx wrote: »

Do you think its wise for someone that has strong evidence of corruption, tyranny, oppression, fraud, peadophile child trafficking rings, and all the other abhorrent things capable by mankind, would have a website?

Anyhow those that do are censored or taken down regularly and the owners are ''commiting suicide''at an alarming rate.

So the only means these truthers have of exposing these crimes against humanity is via Facebook and Twitter. Okie dokie.

Dohnjoe

Notmything wrote: »

Because....Sweden.....is......an...... independent......country. unless it's part of the global conspiracy, in which case it's doing a piss poor job of going along with the conspiracy by having its own rules.

This, and this is the tricky bit, means it can make its own rules. Just like Ireland, Spain, France can. These rules are drawn up to meet the specific, individual requirements of that country. They may not make sense to people (you) in other countries but hopefully to that specific country they do.

But if the poster acknowledges this, then they are in an uncomfortable scenario of acknowledging their conspiracy might not be true. That is not something they want from this exchange.

By "not getting it" it keeps the dream of their conspiracy alive. There have been conspiracy theorists on this forum who literally see photographs differently from everyone else on the forum, like their belief is so cemented in their mind it's actually warping their perception. That or they are just flat out lying to support an irrational belief.

Notmything

buzzerxx wrote: »

Do you think its wise for someone that has strong evidence of corruption, tyranny, oppression, fraud, peadophile child trafficking rings, and all the other abhorrent things capable by mankind, would have a website?

Anyhow those that do are censored or taken down regularly and the owners are ''commiting suicide''at an alarming rate.

But they are safe on Facebook or gofundme?

Notmything

Dohnjoe wrote: »

But if the poster acknowledges this, then they are in an uncomfortable scenario of acknowledging their conspiracy might not be true. That is not something they want from this exchange.

Ah, but they get a workout from shifting those goalposts around.

buzzerxx

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What exactly is this truther's truth?

Too many to express but one is that the lockdowns are unjustified and causing more harm than good.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2TVSCwWPQQscAqFlFWRIDw

SoapMcTavish

Maybe we should have "Vaccinated Bars" and "No Vaccine Bars" etc. Segregation ?

Professor Moriarty

buzzerxx wrote: »

Too many to express but one is that the lockdowns are unjustified and causing more harm than good.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2TVSCwWPQQscAqFlFWRIDw

Please show me where she offers scientific evidence in these YouTube videos.

Dohnjoe

buzzerxx wrote: »

True, but more and more people are realising that MSM is full of lies and propaganda and thus turning to social media and the millions of impartial and non scripted truthers who try to expose the megalomaniacs.

Exactly, I mean how else will we know the real truth that the Communists/Fascists/NWO/Satan/Elites/WEF want to (just from these threads)

• Manufacture a real pandemic to create a vaccine in order to kill all people over 90
• Use Covid as a ruse to install Communism across the world
• Use Covid as a ruse to install "Corpo-Fascism" across the world
• Use lockdowns to destroy each economy in the world then rebuild a new dystopia
• Reveal the whole thing is a "scam" this summer
• Take over the world "next year"
• Take over the world in 2025 (ish)
• and a few more I've forgotten

And the mainstream media is not reporting on any of this! thank god for all these impartial truthers telling us how it really is

Professor Moriarty

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Exactly, I mean how else will we know the real truth that the Communists/Fascists/NWO/Satan/Elites/WEF want to (just from these threads)

• Manufacture a real pandemic to create a vaccine in order to kill all people over 90
• Use Covid as a ruse to install Communism across the world
• Use Covid as a ruse to install "Corpo-Fascism" across the world
• Use lockdowns to destroy each economy in the world then rebuild a new dystopia
• Reveal the whole thing is a "scam" this summer
• Take over the world "next year"
• Take over the world in 2025 (ish)
• and a few more I've forgotten

And the mainstream media is not reporting on any of this! thank god for all these impartial truthers telling us how it really is

So this is being driven by murderous communist Corpo-Fascist anarchists? How cool is that.

Dohnjoe

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So this is being driven by murderous communist Corpo-Fascist anarchists? How cool is that.

don't forget Old Nick, he's a popular choice here

Professor Moriarty

Dohnjoe wrote: »

don't forget Old Nick, he's a popular choice here

Excellent. Always wanted to meet him. Hope he shows up.

buzzerxx

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Please show me where she offers scientific evidence in these YouTube videos.

Here's some scientific evidence for you.

https://www.ranker.com/list/what-happened-during-tuskegee-syphilis-experiments/rachel-souerbry

Notmything

buzzerxx wrote: »

Here's some scientific evidence for you.

https://www.ranker.com/list/what-happened-during-tuskegee-syphilis-experiments/rachel-souerbry

How is that related to the current covid pandemic?

Unless you're argument is "look a nasty government did this, so therefore they must be doing <insert conspiracy here> now".

Professor Moriarty

buzzerxx wrote: »

Here's some scientific evidence for you.

https://www.ranker.com/list/what-happened-during-tuskegee-syphilis-experiments/rachel-souerbry

So there was none in your YouTube videos. The ones you obviously didn't watch.

Now, this 'scientific evidence' is 90 years old. Please do explain the link between this 'scientific evidence' and Covid-19.

buzzerxx

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Please show me where she offers scientific evidence in these YouTube videos.

A lot of you all cant tell the difference between Science and $cience.

Notmything

buzzerxx wrote: »

A lot of you all cant tell the difference between Science and $cience.

Tbf you're the one who posted a video of a barrister when asked to offer science based evidence.

PintOfView

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you for the polite reply.

There are limits on numbers in bars, but they are always full. The only discernible restriction in restaurants and bars is a bit of distance between tables. There appears to be no limit on numbers in cafés. They are always packed. I am guessing that because of alcohol it was decided that restrictions were more important for bars than cafés.

The main difference in approach between Sweden and Ireland must be down the healthcare system.

I understand the logic to a vaccine passport, but I am against them because it means people who don't take the vaccine would be unable to take part in society. I also don't think they would, if introduced, be temporary. According to a model, it is estimated that the UK will reach herd immunity on Monday. Even if that model is wrong the UK must be close to reaching herd immunity. Case numbers and deaths are on the floor and yet a vaccine passport system is set to be rolled out. And don't forget that Johnson, Hancock, Give et al were ruling out vaccine passports while the vaccine passport system was in late stage development. Do you think there's any justification for restrictions in the UK? Domestically, I mean. I can understand caution regarding international travel.

Here is an article from a Swedish web site from Jan 2021 (& updated on 1st March)
https://www.thelocal.se/20210121/coronavirus-what-are-the-rules-for-restaurants-bars-and-cafes-in-sweden-now/
Some extracts
- The maximum group size for restaurants, bars and cafes, is four people.
This includes both adults and children and applies until at least May 31st, 2021.
- In addition, the national recommendations (which apply to individuals and unlike the laws for restaurants are not legally binding)
state that individuals should limit close social contact to a small circle of close family and/or friends.
This includes restaurant or cafe visits, so you shouldn't be meeting people outside your normal close circle at a restaurant even if you'd be less than four people in total.
- As of March 1st, the limit is set at one person only, for restaurants and cafés that do not have their own entrances,
for example those located in shopping centres. This means you cannot sit at a table with anyone else at these venues
- As of March 1st, all restaurants and cafés in Sweden have to close at 8.30pm
and may not open until 5am the next morning. That applies regardless of whether they serve alcohol.
- Takeaways can be ordered after 8.30pm, but customers must keep at least one metre apart while collecting their food.
- If a venue is found not to be complying, they can be closed down until they can show they have taken the appropriate measures.

From another web site from Dec 2020 https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-sweden-implements-tougher-restrictions-as-cases-rise/a-55992637
"The Swedish government, which has thus far left most schools, businesses and restaurants open during the pandemic, announced the closure of non-essential public workplaces, such as gyms, pools and libraries.

Prime Minister Lofven also said the wearing of face masks would now be recommended on public transport during peak hours."

So even though they haven't got an official 'lockdown', it's not business as usual in Sweden,
and they are taking a lot of the same measures as us, and the differences between Sweden and Ireland are not as great as might be imagined!

And don't forget they do have a higher death rate than us, and much higher than their immediate neighbouring countries.
They also, as you can see, recommend wearing masks on public transport, when that transport is likely to have more people on it.

They certainly haven't been 'open' since May 2020, and even if they don't call what they're doing a lockdown, in practice people in Sweden are limiting their movement, and social interactions, and achieving something similar to a lockdown, which is preventing the virus from running rampant through society.


On the vaccine cert, the logic behind it is clear. I don't think it should be ruled out just because some people think it could go on longer than needed.
If it brings immediate benefits to the majority (and even to the un-vaccinated if the economy gets moving again) then isn't that a good reason to not rule it out?
Re domestic restrictions in the UK, I haven't studied it, but why would they retain them if they didn't think they were necessary?
The powers that be in the UK will want to get rid of restrictions as quickly as possible, and will only hesitate if they think there's a risk in opening up too quickly.

If you were in government, and responsible for the health of the population, would you take risks that would leave you open to accusations of negligence and letting people die?

sabat

Amusing little circle-jerk going on here...although I have noticed the circle getting smaller these last few weeks. I've also noticed many of the posts in the main covid19 forum are starting to read exactly like a post from in here 6 months ago...

PintOfView

buzzerxx wrote: »

Too many to express but one is that the lockdowns are unjustified and causing more harm than good.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2TVSCwWPQQscAqFlFWRIDw

Sorry, don't have time to be listening to her videos, looked at the first couple of minutes, and switched off when she started talking about "controlling the freedom of people living in Ireland"

If she has good points to make, can you listen to the videos, and put her main points up here to read?

If she is a barrister she should be familiar with the concept of taking an argument and pointing out where it's wrong, and for what reason.
So if she thinks lockdowns don't work, then get her to explain to us why they don't work?
And get her to explain why cases reduced each time we locked down?
And I'd also be interested in her solution to this whole thing?

PintOfView

sabat wrote: »

Amusing little circle-jerk going on here...although I have noticed the circle getting smaller these last few weeks. I've also noticed many of the posts in the main covid19 forum are starting to read exactly like a post from in here 6 months ago...

Yes, I noticed that too. Doesn't make them right though, does it?