All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

eddie73

https://www.facebook.com/100007616290896/videos/2767447573519092/

Has anyone watched or listened to Ivor Cummins recently? Is this data worth considering? What are the counter arguments to the figures gathered from rip.ie? this would be worth a long debate as opposed to a sentence or 2 on a board or social media.

Fighting Tao

eddie73 wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/100007616290896/videos/2767447573519092/

Has anyone watched or listened to Ivor Cummins recently? Is this data worth considering? What are the counter arguments to the figures gathered from rip.ie? this would be worth a long debate as opposed to a sentence or 2 on a board or social media.

I'm not on Facebook, nor am I going near it via links, so I have no idea what his argument is. However, I do know that not every death is recorded on RIP. RIP is a privately owned website that charges for services. Some families choose not to use it, and then other people don't have relatives left and so they wouldn't be posted there either. I don't think it can accurately be used to gauge the total number of deaths.

The Nal

eddie73 wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/100007616290896/videos/2767447573519092/

Has anyone watched or listened to Ivor Cummins recently? Is this data worth considering? What are the counter arguments to the figures gathered from rip.ie? this would be worth a long debate as opposed to a sentence or 2 on a board or social media.

This comment sums up the above video.

"This was removed by youtube because it was false and misleading.
Ivor has outdone himself in the latest video, even by his own data deaths are higher (red numbers) then 3 out of 4 previous years. He works off a year of Oct 2019 to Oct 2020 as the covid comparision point - so includes 4 months BEFORE the pandemic started - and doesn't even include a full winter with covid - for a virus he claims is winter seasonal!
Can you not see how you are being mislead here? Watch the video closely."

Ivor is smart. He knows if he speaks slowly and authoritatively, a lot of Facebook addicts will believe his bullsh1t. His website asks for donations! A huge plead for free money as soon as you log on. This is a man who is a chemical engineer and author, a man who earns a lot of money, asking people for free money. Hes done well out of this pandemic. Candy from a baby.

eddie73

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I'm not on Facebook, nor am I going near it via links, so I have no idea what his argument is. However, I do know that not every death is recorded on RIP. RIP is a privately owned website that charges for services. Some families choose not to use it, and then other people don't have relatives left and so they wouldn't be posted there either. I don't think it can accurately be used to gauge the total number of deaths.

The point about accuracy is covered on the video. He includes CSO death stats that are graphed concurrently to plot accuracy. Deaths appear on the site long before the state registers them and there is no 3 month time lag. You can plot daily or monthly deaths, while the CSO releases quarterly figures.

eddie73

The Nal wrote: »

This comment sums up the above video.

"This was removed by youtube because it was false and misleading.
Ivor has outdone himself in the latest video, even by his own data deaths are higher (red numbers) then 3 out of 4 previous years. He works off a year of Oct 2019 to Oct 2020 as the covid comparision point - so includes 4 months BEFORE the pandemic started - and doesn't even include a full winter with covid - for a virus he claims is winter seasonal!
Can you not see how you are being mislead here? Watch the video closely."

Ivor is smart. He knows if he speaks slowly and authoritatively, a lot of Facebook addicts will believe his bullsh1t. His website asks for donations! A huge plead for free money as soon as you log on. This is a man who is a chemical engineer and author, a man who earns a lot of money, asking people for free money. Hes done well out of this pandemic. Candy from a baby.

I would like if we dealt with stats rather than personalities if you dont mind. If he was deplatformed from youtube that doesn't mean that it is now immune from debate. My difficulty with the times we are in is that deplatforming is happening much too frequently. There are no debates anymore. Just cheer for the mask wearers and boo at the anti vaccine people, or the other way around for that mater. We have reduced our critical faculties down to a punch and Judy show.

The Nal

eddie73 wrote: »

I would like if we dealt with stats rather than personalities if you dont mind. If he was deplatformed from youtube that doesn't mean that it is now immune from debate. My difficulty with the times we are in is that deplatforming is happening much too frequently. There are no debates anymore. Just cheer for the mask wearers and boo at the anti vaccine people, or the other way around for that mater. We have reduced our critical faculties down to a punch and Judy show.

Only if you're one of the tiny percentage of vocal people who get their info exclusively on Facebook or Twitter. In the lap of the algorithms. They love a "win". Love lolling at sheeple or at Nazis.

I'm all for a debate and have been talking about all this with loads of family and friends over the last year. Some stuff we disagree on, some stuff we agree on.

But anyone intelligent like Cummins who knows they have a captive audience and then looks for hand outs is ethically fairly shoddy in my opinion. Especially from the bewildered "do your research" crowd. An audience hes well aware that he has. Have you seen some of the poor unfortunates in the comments sections of these videos. Disgusting from him really.

Look at the size of this from his website.

Dohnjoe

eddie73 wrote: »

If he was deplatformed from youtube that doesn't mean that it is now immune from debate.

It means it contains misleading and false information

Just cheer for the mask wearers and boo at the anti vaccine people, or the other way around for that mater. We have reduced our critical faculties down to a punch and Judy show.

This entire thread (and all the other Covid related threads on this forum) for the last year have been full of false claims, most of which have been addressed and painstakingly explained (repeatedly) The problem is that people can create bull**** faster than it can be refuted.

Once someone takes the time to fully explain the details in X video to someone, chances are that someone will a) dump another crank video out of thousands and the whole process has to be repeated or b) just reject the explanation and resort back to a)

eddie73

Big deal if he has a patreon page or PayPal page. The material is free anyway. Donations are not mandatory. He is not alone with a PayPal widget on his page. I don't know this with any accuracy, but he has been around for a long time before covid, so these widgets and subscriptions are more than likely not new.

Debating the material as opposed to the person is what we should be doing. I can include a screenshot of the video if you are not on facebook. This is the problem with de-platforming off youtube. A useful debate suddenly becomes left field and out of bounds.

Dohnjoe

eddie73 wrote: »

Big deal if he has a patreon page or PayPal page. The material is free anyway. Donations are not mandatory. He is not alone with a PayPal widget on his page. I don't know this with any accuracy, but he has been around for a long time before covid, so these widgets and subscriptions are more than likely not new.

Debating the material as opposed to the person is what we should be doing. I can include a screenshot of the video if you are not on facebook. This is the problem with de-platforming off youtube. A useful debate suddenly becomes left field and out of bounds.

As mentioned, if someone here is kind enough to go through a video and explain, step by step, why each part of it is wrong, they are nearly always rewarded by another video, and then another, and on - coupled with rejections of the explanation

The fact that you are trying to present a video that has been flagged as disinformation should be a clue as to it's veracity. Maybe someone will be patient enough to go through it.

The Nal

eddie73 wrote: »

Big deal if he has a patreon page or PayPal page. The material is free anyway. Donations are not mandatory. He is not alone with a PayPal widget on his page.

Yep, oldest trick in the book. Give out a bit of free stuff, reel em in and then hit them with the "please donate" "buy my book" etc.

eddie73 wrote: »

I don't know this with any accuracy, but he has been around for a long time before covid, so these widgets and subscriptions are more than likely not new.

They're much more prevalent now. Any old slag with a Facebook "patriot" account is asking for cash.

eddie73 wrote: »

Debating the material as opposed to the person is what we should be doing.

Indeed. As has been the case here. Another video containing misinformation from Cummins, whos intelligent enough to know what hes doing, has been debunked and removed.

PintOfView

eddie73 wrote: »

Big deal if he has a patreon page or PayPal page. The material is free anyway. Donations are not mandatory. He is not alone with a PayPal widget on his page. I don't know this with any accuracy, but he has been around for a long time before covid, so these widgets and subscriptions are more than likely not new.

Debating the material as opposed to the person is what we should be doing. I can include a screenshot of the video if you are not on facebook. This is the problem with de-platforming off youtube. A useful debate suddenly becomes left field and out of bounds.

Are you able to put up a short list of his main bullet points, or a screen shot as you suggest?

eddie73

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

King Mob

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

So what is the claim exactly?
That no one is dying from covid?

robinph

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

So he picked a specific year with unusually high flu deaths and compared it to just one month within a year of social distancing, mask wearing, entertainment venues shut, holidays cancelled etc... What exactly is that meant to prove?

Just shows that 2017 was a bad year for the flu, and we were in the middle of dealing with a pandemic during 2020.

eddie73

robinph wrote: »

So he picked a specific year with unusually high flu deaths and compared it to just one month within a year of social distancing, mask wearing, entertainment venues shut, holidays cancelled etc... What exactly is that meant to prove?

Just shows that 2017 was a bad year for the flu, and we were in the middle of dealing with a pandemic during 2020.

Thanks for your answer. I suppose, and can only guess that he picked 2017 exactly for that reason, to compare a bad flu year with a year that we are dealing with covid 19, to give it perspective. I will look at 2018 and 2019 myself. There is no point in leaving it to others to do this, or speculating on those years unless you find your own evidence. rip.ie seems to be more than adequate for this purpose.

eddie73

robinph wrote: »

So he picked a specific year with unusually high flu deaths and compared it to just one month within a year of social distancing, mask wearing, entertainment venues shut, holidays cancelled etc... What exactly is that meant to prove?

Just shows that 2017 was a bad year for the flu, and we were in the middle of dealing with a pandemic during 2020.

No, he compares all months.

Dohnjoe

Lockdown measures being further reduced across the UK, for those that have been claiming all this will be permanent, what's their explanation for that?

astrofool

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks for your answer. I suppose, and can only guess that he picked 2017 exactly for that reason, to compare a bad flu year with a year that we are dealing with covid 19, to give it perspective. I will look at 2018 and 2019 myself. There is no point in leaving it to others to do this, or speculating on those years unless you find your own evidence. rip.ie seems to be more than adequate for this purpose.

Just on this type of thinking, as clearly the CSO report isn't out yet so nothing official is available (and the numbers for the officially available months of 2020 are above the death count of the previous year).

Because we had lockdown and social distancing, the number of deaths last year will be different to other years, the lockdowns reduced COVID deaths significantly, but also accidental deaths and other deaths from communicative diseases. The answer isn't that we could have opened up a bit more and had a "normal" amount of deaths last year, the problem with an infectious disease is that opening up a bit can lead to a lot of excess deaths as we saw with just a few weeks at Christmas (and these deaths won't be reported on until the 2021 stats come out leading to lots of people frothing at the mouth that December 2020 was below normal for deaths I'm sure).

PintOfView

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

Ok, I had seen that a coroner had questioned the accuracy of with covid vs of covid deaths, etc.
I think there will always be a blurred line between with covid, vs of covid.
So excess deaths are probably a better gauge of what's happening.

I'd have to see Ivor Cummins' numbers in more detail to comment on them.

However, see these ...
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fb/b-mpds/measuringmortalityusingpublicdatasources2019-2020/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/

From the CSO link,
April 2020 = 3,500 deaths,
Avg for April over prev 4 years was 2,500

It's seems pretty clear the extra 1,000 deaths in April 2020 had to be due to Covid.
However monthly deaths returned quickly to normal for the rest of the year
So the yearly excess deaths might not be too much above normal
(Dec infections wouldn't have resulted in deaths till Jan, and I'd expect to see a bit jump in Jan when the numbers are available)


So the next thing is what conclusion can we draw from that?

If we didn't have a lockdown, and social distancing, and the other measures, etc.,
it would have suggested the virus wasn't too serious.

However we did have a lockdown, and all the other restrictions,
so that make it difficult to say what 'would' have happened if we didn't lock down, etc.

One thing we can do here is to look at the experience in other countries.
A convenient one to look at is the CDC web site in the US https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
That page has a graph that shows weekly deaths from all causes for the past 4 years.

See below for a screen shot of that graph.
The orange line is the threshold for excess deaths.
You can see that from April 2020 to April 2021 they've had a lot more deaths than normal.
And that's even with lockdowns (perhaps not everywhere, and not observed as much as here, etc)

So, just from that graph it's fair to say that we were justified in at least having respect for this virus,
and very likely our restrictions saved a lot of lives.

I'm not sure what Ivor Cummins' conclusions were, but do they tally with this picture?

Note on the graph, deaths can take a couple of months to get registered
(so it may have improved in the past few weeks, but not as dramatically as the graph suggests)

eddie73

PintOfView wrote: »

Ok, I had seen that a coroner had questioned the accuracy of with covid vs of covid deaths, etc.
I think there will always be a blurred line between with covid, vs of covid.
So excess deaths are probably a better gauge of what's happening.

I'd have to see Ivor Cummins' numbers in more detail to comment on them.

However, see these ...
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fb/b-mpds/measuringmortalityusingpublicdatasources2019-2020/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/

From the CSO link,
April 2020 = 3,500 deaths,
Avg for April over prev 4 years was 2,500

It's seems pretty clear the extra 1,000 deaths in April 2020 had to be due to Covid.
However monthly deaths returned quickly to normal for the rest of the year
So the yearly excess deaths might not be too much above normal
(Dec infections wouldn't have resulted in deaths till Jan, and I'd expect to see a bit jump in Jan when the numbers are available)


So the next thing is what conclusion can we draw from that?

If we didn't have a lockdown, and social distancing, and the other measures, etc.,
it would have suggested the virus wasn't too serious.

However we did have a lockdown, and all the other restrictions,
so that make it difficult to say what 'would' have happened if we didn't lock down, etc.

One thing we can do here is to look at the experience in other countries.
A convenient one to look at is the CDC web site in the US https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
That page has a graph that shows weekly deaths from all causes for the past 4 years.

See below for a screen shot of that graph.
The orange line is the threshold for excess deaths.
You can see that from April 2020 to April 2021 they've had a lot more deaths than normal.
And that's even with lockdowns (perhaps not everywhere, and not observed as much as here, etc)

So, just from that graph it's fair to say that we were justified in at least having respect for this virus,
and very likely our restrictions saved a lot of lives.

I'm not sure what Ivor Cummins' conclusions were, but do they tally with this picture?

Note on the graph, deaths can take a couple of months to get registered
(so it may have improved in the past few weeks, but not as dramatically as the graph suggests)

Excellent info thank you!

I think we know what Ivor Cummins believes. He is not covert in his opinions.

I have looked at rip.ie as a source and noticed deaths in January of this year are very high. Feb is likewise high but not as bad. Nov and Dec of 2020 relative to preceding years are almost at parity. He doesn't make reference to this. Maybe for another time, but I would have preferred if these months were included.

patnor1011

PintOfView wrote: »

Ok, I had seen that a coroner had questioned the accuracy of with covid vs of covid deaths, etc.
I think there will always be a blurred line between with covid, vs of covid.
So excess deaths are probably a better gauge of what's happening.

I'd have to see Ivor Cummins' numbers in more detail to comment on them.

However, see these ...
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fb/b-mpds/measuringmortalityusingpublicdatasources2019-2020/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/

From the CSO link,
April 2020 = 3,500 deaths,
Avg for April over prev 4 years was 2,500

It's seems pretty clear the extra 1,000 deaths in April 2020 had to be due to Covid.
However monthly deaths returned quickly to normal for the rest of the year
So the yearly excess deaths might not be too much above normal
(Dec infections wouldn't have resulted in deaths till Jan, and I'd expect to see a bit jump in Jan when the numbers are available)


So the next thing is what conclusion can we draw from that?

If we didn't have a lockdown, and social distancing, and the other measures, etc.,
it would have suggested the virus wasn't too serious.

However we did have a lockdown, and all the other restrictions,
so that make it difficult to say what 'would' have happened if we didn't lock down, etc.

One thing we can do here is to look at the experience in other countries.
A convenient one to look at is the CDC web site in the US https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
That page has a graph that shows weekly deaths from all causes for the past 4 years.

See below for a screen shot of that graph.
The orange line is the threshold for excess deaths.
You can see that from April 2020 to April 2021 they've had a lot more deaths than normal.
And that's even with lockdowns (perhaps not everywhere, and not observed as much as here, etc)

So, just from that graph it's fair to say that we were justified in at least having respect for this virus,
and very likely our restrictions saved a lot of lives.

I'm not sure what Ivor Cummins' conclusions were, but do they tally with this picture?

Note on the graph, deaths can take a couple of months to get registered
(so it may have improved in the past few weeks, but not as dramatically as the graph suggests)

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

PintOfView

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

I can't see how just shipping people from hospitals to nursing homes caused them to die.
Surely they would have picked people who were judged not to need continuing hospital care.
Are you saying Covid had nothing to do with it?
What makes you believe what you say?

As regards lockdowns not working.
You're saying that states in the US with the most lockdowns had the most deaths,
compared to states with very little restrictions.

Fair enough, but that's easy to say, even if it wasn't true. Can you give me a few examples?
so, a few states with lockdowns and lots of deaths,
and states with no restrictions and low deaths?

Dohnjoe

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

Bizarre views.

It's a highly infectious disease, it spreads when people are in close contact. Reducing that contact reduces the spread. It's not rocket science.

eddie73

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

The graph you are reacting to is a global graph rather than an Irish one, so the point of emptying the hospitals in April and sending them to nursing homes is not applicable, unless they did this globally. States with most deaths in the usa were the most densely populated states so the efficacy of lockdowns/no lockdowns would have to be examined a bit more closely. Where are these countries in question?

Pinch Flat

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1209560/

Of course the kildare coroner would disagree with no increase in deaths. But hey MSM so he's probably paid by Bill gates/ George Soros/ big Pharma

Dohnjoe

Pinch Flat wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1209560/

Of course the kildare coroner would disagree with no increase in deaths. But hey MSM so he's probably paid by Bill gates/ George Soros/ big Pharma

Conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers have been attempting to round down death figures since the start. Which is really grim stuff when you think about it. No different from Holocaust deniers.

eddie73

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers have been attempting to round down death figures since the start. Which is really grim stuff when you think about it. No different from Holocaust deniers.

I wouldn't go that far. There are many people with healthy skepticism about covid while there are many others who will jump on any conspiracy train for the hell of it without thinking out their arguments.
Patrick O'Connor is a trained coroner. I wouldn't call him a conspiracy theorist in the literal sense of the word. All he is calling for is a debate on the recording of deaths, which co morbidity is a major factor.

Good things to come out of this sort of skepticism would be highlighting the need for people to tackle their obesity, blood sugar levels, hyper tension levels and cancer predictors. If people were told that correcting these issues would massively increase their chances of dealing with covid without going to hospital, it is win win for the world. But as it stands, we are in a false dilemma about how we should tackle this. The only game in town is social distancing and vaccination. Social distancing and mask wearing is not going to prevent the spread of covid especially when economies start to limp back into action. The vaccine dilemma is only starting. This is especially true when you consider 2 staff members have tested positive for covid having received both vaccines. Where does this sort of stat lead us? More vaccines, more vaccines, variants, more vaccines?

I dont see an end to this. The only way is to take personal responsibility of your own health as much as you can, so when you do end up ill, you have given yourself a much much better chance of getting through a list of illnesses, as opposed to being helpless and reliant exclusively on the health services.

Dohnjoe

eddie73 wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far. There are many people with healthy skepticism about covid while there are many others who will jump on any conspiracy train for the hell of it without thinking out their arguments.
Patrick O'Connor is a trained coroner. I wouldn't call him a conspiracy theorist in the literal sense of the word. All he is calling for is a debate on the recording of deaths, which co morbidity is a major factor.

I am not referring to the coroner, I am referring to conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers, those on this forum, who have been attacking the global death figures since the beginning in order to reduce them, to fit a contrived narrative. That's not healthy skepticism, it's denial. Very similar to history revisionism and denial.

Dohnjoe

So Ted Nugent, who previously called Covid-19 a "scam", has tested positive
https://abc7.com/ted-nugent-covid-statement-facebook-has/10531394/

The article also highlights the usual correlations

Nugent, a supporter of ex-President Donald Trump, previously called the pandemic a scam and has railed against public health restrictions. He has repeated a narrative pushed by conservative media and disputed by health experts that suggests the official death count from the coronavirus is inflated.

A poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research in late March found that 36% of Republicans said they will probably or definitely not get vaccinated, compared with 12% of Democrats. The seven-day national average of cases remains over 60,000 new infections per day.

patnor1011

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So Ted Nugent, who previously called Covid-19 a "scam", has tested positive
https://abc7.com/ted-nugent-covid-statement-facebook-has/10531394/

The article also highlights the usual correlations

This is ridiculous. Being tested positive and getting ill are 2 very different scenarios particularly with covid where well over half of "cases" or "tested positive" never develop a single symptom never mind any illness.
That is what tests most of the time show us - detected fragments of corona viruses or built up antibodies from past infections. It is well over a year and by the end of this one pretty much everyone will be "tested positive" at some stage.

Talking about covid deniers and comparing people with different opinion to holocaust denier is complete crazy stuff. It is flat out kindergarten stuff.
You go in so much extreme that some people may call you covid fanatic. Extremes on both sides are usually populated by people with generally very low IQ.

People can cite studies or newspaper articles we do have saying in a sense that paper never complains about what is printed on it but real life do have its own experiences which many times differ from what people think that it is happening.

People can either sit at home scared waiting for end of the world which is not coming any time soon anyway or just carry on. Simple look out of a window indicate how the situation is changing and quite rapidly. The only thing locked down at this moment is economy, most of the people moved on.