All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

The Raging Bile Duct

GT89 wrote: »

Will there still be social distancing markings and masks by then probably. It probably won't be lockdown but still covid measures like masks and social distancing by then. I think people will still wear masks like they do in Asian countries even when this is over.

People wearing masks in Asian countries before Covid were doing it of their own volition.

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

You want to find someone who doesn't answer their phone?


Will you pay the court fees because it was out of charge or because they were asleep?


Is the "bang on the door, wake up, Vee need to talk to you" next?

Are you saying you agree with the quarantine, but think trusting people to self isolate is sufficient?
Or do you mean that you don't agree with the quarantine?

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Tanks, troops.

And prayers.

If you don't have an alternative solution just say so!

PintOfView

GT89 wrote: »

Government are just trying to scare people out of booking holidays away ...

Yes, I think the government, and the majority of people in the country, would like people to not travel abroad until this Covid thing is no longer a threat.

I acknowledge this inconveniences some people whose business might required travel, or Irish people abroad who would like to come home urgently for family reasons, etc.

However lockdowns every few months are damaging to the economy, and to people's normal health and well being.
So we need to look at how to manage this without having to lockdown.
One part of that would be to try to prevent fresh infections being brought into the country.
Visitors are not being barred from the country, simply being asked to isolate for 14 days.
Irish people are being discouraged from travelling abroad, where they would risk catching the virus and bringing it back to the rest of us.
It can hardly be argued that a foreign holiday is essential (apart from not supporting our own tourism industry in time of need)

Have you a problem with any of that? and if so which bits?

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Tanks, troops.



And prayers.

After pages of attacking every measure against the current virus, you give an inane response like this as a solution, sums it up really

irishguitarlad

I used to think no, that we would go back to normal. But with the new variants I think covid-19 measures are going to be permanent. It's sad but true.

EyesClosed

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I used to think no, that we would go back to normal. But with the new variants I think covid-19 measures are going to be permanent. It's sad but true.

What's going to be permanent? And who is benefiting from this?

irishguitarlad

EyesClosed wrote: »

What's going to be permanent? And who is benefiting from this?

Obviously governments, it makes policing people much easier. I don't doubt that the virus is dangerous or that measures need to be taken to slow its spread including current measures but they will keep going on and on because there will always be a new variant.

GT89

EyesClosed wrote: »

What's going to be permanent? And who is benefiting from this?

Why are the measures still in place nearly one year with a vaccine available? Whatever happened to two weeks to flatten the curve in fact the initial covid measures back in March were meant to be implemented for 3 days. We were being told then the covid measures were until there is a vaccine now there is a vaccine and they are still there.

runawaybishop

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Obviously governments, it makes policing people much easier. I don't doubt that the virus is dangerous or that measures need to be taken to slow its spread including current measures but they will keep going on and on because there will always be a new variant.

This isn't the first pandemic, where is the evidence from previous episodes that current restrictions will be permanent. Like we may have permanent improvements in how we deal with this sort of stuff in the hospital environments, but for the general population what exactly do you think will be permanent?

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Tanks, troops.

And prayers.

It's easy to attack and find fault with something.
It a lot more difficult to come up with a solution.
I've seen you attacking various aspects of how the virus is being dealt with.
I have not seen you propose any solution!

If you had your way, what would you propose we all do?

Do you propose we all go back to normal, and go about our business as if the virus didn't exist?

Why don't you spell out clearly what you want, and we can then discuss the merits of your solution!

Allinall

GT89 wrote: »

Why are the measures still in place nearly one year with a vaccine available? Whatever happened to two weeks to flatten the curve in fact the initial covid measures back in March were meant to be implemented for 3 days. We were being told then the covid measures were until there is a vaccine now there is a vaccine and they are still there.

"There is a vaccine" is a nonsense statement in the context if Ireland and restrictions.

When you can say " ~80% of the population have been vaccinated", then you can have an argument if restrictions are still in place.

runawaybishop

GT89 wrote: »

Why are the measures still in place nearly one year with a vaccine available? Whatever happened to two weeks to flatten the curve in fact the initial covid measures back in March were meant to be implemented for 3 days. We were being told then the covid measures were until there is a vaccine now there is a vaccine and they are still there.

Huh? The vaccine rollout began less than 4 weeks ago and we have feck all of it yet.

King Mob

GT89 wrote: »

Why are the measures still in place nearly one year with a vaccine available?

Because there's limited quantities of the vaccine and it hasn't been fully distributed yet.

Again, why is this a difficult question?

Could you explain which measures are permanent and what is the motive behind this idea?

irishguitarlad

runawaybishop wrote: »

This isn't the first pandemic, where is the evidence from previous episodes that current restrictions will be permanent. Like we may have permanent improvements in how we deal with this sort of stuff in the hospital environments, but for the general population what exactly do you think will be permanent?

Travel restrictions,not just international but national, not being able to visit other peoples houses, bars, restaurants and various other shops and establishments not being able to open, social distancing, masks as well but to be honest that doesn't bother me. I hope that the above doesn't stay permanent but I'm very pessimistic at the moment.

EyesClosed

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Travel restrictions,not just international but national, not being able to visit other peoples houses, bars, restaurants and various other shops and establishments not being able to open, social distancing, masks as well but to be honest that doesn't bother me. I hope that the above doesn't stay permanent but I'm very pessimistic at the moment.

OK they are in place to stop the spread of a pandemic. 90 people died yesterday... Are you OK with that?

What makes you think they will stay permanent after this? Do you understand how the government makes money? They need things to be open... So I don't understand how closing things is in the governments best interests. Also controlling people? The government where voted in by people...

irishguitarlad

EyesClosed wrote: »

OK they are in place to stop the spread of a pandemic. 90 people died yesterday... Are you OK with that?

What makes you think they will stay permanent after this? Do you understand how the government makes money? They need things to be open... So I don't understand how closing things is in the governments best interests. Also controlling people? The government where voted in by people...

I said I was ok with the current measures. What I'm not ok with is next year and nothing has changed and we're in the same situation.

The government seem to be doing just fine right now and everything is closed. Also their best buddies are hoovering up all the wealth at a rapid rate, not just in Ireland but all over the world, the wealthy are loving this.

PintOfView

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Travel restrictions,not just international but national, not being able to visit other peoples houses, bars, restaurants and various other shops and establishments not being able to open, social distancing, masks as well but to be honest that doesn't bother me. I hope that the above doesn't stay permanent but I'm very pessimistic at the moment.

The lockdown last April/May reduced the numbers of cases and got the virus to a low level. This allowed lots of shops to get open again, and also restaurants, and even visiting other households.

If we get the virus under control we should be able to get back to at least that situation. If the vaccine works, and it gets rolled out to enough people, then we will get much closer to normal.

I too don't want it to be permanent, and I don't want me and my family to be locked down. However I support those things today because I think they're necessary.

runawaybishop

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Travel restrictions,not just international but national, not being able to visit other peoples houses, bars, restaurants and various other shops and establishments not being able to open, social distancing, masks as well but to be honest that doesn't bother me. I hope that the above doesn't stay permanent but I'm very pessimistic at the moment.

Those are restrictions to deal with a current pandemic. Do you really think we will permanently not be allowed to visit other people?

ShatterAlan

runawaybishop wrote: »

Those are restrictions to deal with a current pandemic. Do you really think we will permanently not be allowed to visit other people?

What would you do if we weren't? For example what would you do if the government came out with some program whereby you had a maximum of say 5 households you could visit in a 5 mile radius and had to register them on a website and this was "temporary" but with no definitive end date, again what would you do?


Because you seem to meekly take whatever they throw at you right now convincing yourself it's for your own good.

Fighting Tao

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What would you do if we weren't? For example what would you do if the government came out with some program whereby you had a maximum of say 5 households you could visit in a 5 mile radius and had to register them on a website and this was "temporary" but with no definitive end date, again what would you do?


Because you seem to meekly take whatever they throw at you right now convincing yourself it's for your own good.

Do you have any sources that show this is planned for Ireland? If not, why worry about extremely unlike what ifs?

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What would you do if we weren't? For example what would you do if the government came out with some program whereby you had a maximum of say 5 households you could visit in a 5 mile radius and had to register them on a website and this was "temporary" but with no definitive end date, again what would you do?

It depends on the reasons behind, which you haven't provided.

If the above are common sense measures to e.g. deal with a pandemic, then yes. If there's no reason for them, then the scenario is completely absurd.

You seem to be constantly obsessed with blindly "sticking it to the man" for no reason other than it's some belligerent world view you have.

runawaybishop

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What would you do if we weren't? For example what would you do if the government came out with some program whereby you had a maximum of say 5 households you could visit in a 5 mile radius and had to register them on a website and this was "temporary" but with no definitive end date, again what would you do?


Because you seem to meekly take whatever they throw at you right now convincing yourself it's for your own good.

You are such a rebel. Away with you if you are going to make such childish posts.

growleaves

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I said I was ok with the current measures. What I'm not ok with is next year and nothing has changed and we're in the same situation.

The government seem to be doing just fine right now and everything is closed. Also their best buddies are hoovering up all the wealth at a rapid rate, not just in Ireland but all over the world, the wealthy are loving this.

Large corporations are asset-stripping ruined SMEs, cannibalising their market share and consolidating wealth.

Asset inflation is driving the wealth inequality gap and covid measures have sent that into hyperdrive. As we know, wages do not keep up with monetary inflation as it is. There have been pay cuts with covid and will be wage freezes at least.

Add in that many former independent businessmen and women will now have to join the regular labour force, bloating the labour pool even more.

It may be that when this bust cycle has run its course, people will be allowed to trade normally again. However corporate consolidation is vast. Ben Bernake has said the post-covid economy will be characterised by personal austerity and centralised corporate power.

ShatterAlan

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Do you have any sources that show this is planned for Ireland? If not, why worry about extremely unlike what ifs?

Extremely unlikely what ifs?


I live between 2 countries. Most people in the Netherlands would have laughed at you if last September/October you said the government would impose a curfew and yet here it is.

runawaybishop

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Extremely unlikely what ifs?


I live between 2 countries. Most people in the Netherlands would have laughed at you if last September/October you said the government would impose a curfew and yet here it is.

France introduced a curfew in October, why do you think most people would have thought a curfew was nonsense in NL when their neighbours just brought one in?

You keep switching tact and making unfounded statements as fact.

ShatterAlan

growleaves wrote: »

Large corporations are asset-stripping ruined SMEs, cannibalising their market share and consolidating wealth.

Asset inflation is driving the wealth inequality gap and covid measures have sent that into hyperdrive. As we know, wages do not keep up with monetary inflation as it is. There have been pay cuts with covid and will be wage freezes at least.

Add in that many former independent businessmen and women will now have to join the regular labour force, bloating the labour pool even more.

It may be that when this bust cycle has run its course, people will be allowed to trade normally again. However corporate consolidation is vast. Ben Bernake has said the post-covid economy will be characterised by personal austerity and centralised corporate power.

NAIL ON HEAD.


Just with the (deliberately manufactured) 2008 crash assets will be gobbled up and then while corporate taxes will be slashed, personal income tax will be hiked and public services will be once again gutted to pay for "getting the economy back on track" and the usual suckers will say "we have to accept these austerity measure to get things moving again" like eejits as their take home pay is fleeced and the super rich howl with laughter at the latest exercise in taking candy from a baby.

runawaybishop

ShatterAlan wrote: »

NAIL ON HEAD.


Just with the (deliberately manufactured) 2008 crash assets will be gobbled up and then while corporate taxes will be slashed, personal income tax will be hiked and public services will be once again gutted to pay for "getting the economy back on track" and the usual suckers will say "we have to accept these austerity measure to get things moving again" like eejits as their take home pay is fleeced and the super rich howl with laughter at the latest exercise in taking candy from a baby.

Apart from the 'deliberately manufactured' bit and the suckers bit at the end this isn't untrue. Rich people keep getting richer, especially during uncertain economic times. Not all obviously, but the trend is definitely upwards for them. Still not a conspiracy.

ShatterAlan

runawaybishop wrote: »

France introduced a curfew in October, why do you think most people would have thought a curfew was nonsense in NL when their neighbours just brought one in?

You keep switching tact and making unfounded statements as fact.

The Netherlands isn't France. They don't just follow suit. By your logic Germany should legalise cannabis because their "neighbours" Holland have done so.

runawaybishop

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The Netherlands isn't France. They don't just follow suit. By your logic Germany should legalise cannabis because their "neighbours" Holland have done so.

By my logic, the Dutch wouldn't mostly have laughed at the idea of a curfew. You don't need to fabricate meaning from my posts, I have been pretty direct throughout.

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

NAIL ON HEAD.


Just with the (deliberately manufactured) 2008 crash assets will be gobbled up and then while corporate taxes will be slashed, personal income tax will be hiked and public services will be once again gutted to pay for "getting the economy back on track" and the usual suckers will say "we have to accept these austerity measure to get things moving again" like eejits as their take home pay is fleeced and the super rich howl with laughter at the latest exercise in taking candy from a baby.

The 2008 financial crisis wasn't "deliberately manufactured". It the culmination of many factors, the main underpinning hypothesis being a type of "bubble thinking" by most players (borrowers, lenders, institutions, etc) that house prices wouldn't drop significantly. When prices went off a cliff, the **** hit the fan, and set off a cascade of failures, and triggered systemic herd panic.

Nothing to do with the pandemic, but worth pointing false tropes.

SafeSurfer

runawaybishop wrote: »

By my logic, the Dutch wouldn't mostly have laughed at the idea of a curfew. You don't need to fabricate meaning from my posts, I have been pretty direct throughout.

Curfew was unthinkable in Holland because they are a freedom loving people. The last regime to impose a lockdown on the Dutch was the Third Reich.

SafeSurfer

runawaybishop wrote: »

Apart from the 'deliberately manufactured' bit and the suckers bit at the end this isn't untrue. Rich people keep getting richer, especially during uncertain economic times. Not all obviously, but the trend is definitely upwards for them. Still not a conspiracy.

Until I looked up some past pandemics I would have argued that the idea of the WHO faking a pandemic to enrich big pharma was tinfoil hat territory.
People forget the past so quickly.

runawaybishop

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Curfew was unthinkable in Holland because they are a freedom loving people. The last regime to impose a lockdown on the Dutch was the Third Reich.

Not what the dutchies I know say, they understand and agree with the reasons why. Apart from the 1%, who are the usual suspects for general complaining.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Curfew was unthinkable in Holland because they are a freedom loving people. The last regime to impose a lockdown on the Dutch was the Third Reich.

75% of Dutch people support the curfew, half of them think it should be extended, and a third think it should be even tougher (source) The Dutch administration decided to try a more hands-off approach to the pandemic, but that hasn't really worked out, hence they've decided on measures like the curfew

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Until I looked up some past pandemics I would have argued that the idea of the WHO faking a pandemic to enrich big pharma was tinfoil hat territory.
People forget the past so quickly.

Do you think there is some conspiracy going on with Covid, if yes, what is it?

EyesClosed

Dohnjoe wrote: »

75% of Dutch people support the curfew, half of them think it should be extended, and a third think it should be even tougher (source) The Dutch administration decided to try a more hands-off approach to the pandemic, but that hasn't really worked out, hence they've decided on measures like the curfew

Also there is still nothing saying any of this is permanent. All we have so far is a few posters who fear it might be. Literally nothing other than random fear.

storker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Do you think there is some conspiracy going on with Covid, if yes, what is it?

You still need to ask this after >1,500 posts? Wow.

I'd say that's the clearest indicator you could get that there's "nothing to see here..."

EyesClosed

storker wrote: »

You still need to ask this after >1,500 posts? Wow.

I'd say that's the clearest indicator you could get that there's "nothing to see here..."

But but but the government....

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Curfew was unthinkable in Holland because they are a freedom loving people. The last regime to impose a lockdown on the Dutch was the Third Reich.

Where is this 'freedom loving' stuff coming from?
How do you define 'free'?
Are you free to drive without insurance?
Are you free to take my car if you feel like it?
Are you free to just kill someone you don't like?

I guess you will find you're not free to do any of those things. Why do you think that is?
It's because it's for the greater good of the society we live in, and you benefit from those limitations as much as the next person.

Same with covid, we accept limits to all our 'freedoms' for the moment so that we can get control of the virus for the good of all (and you'll get the benefit of it too, even though your thinking stops you from seeing that at the moment).

SafeSurfer

runawaybishop wrote: »

Not what the dutchies I know say, they understand and agree with the reasons why. Apart from the 1%, who are the usual suspects for general complaining.

Interesting, just 1% of the usual complainers are opposed to lockdown yet the survey quoted previously would suggest that 25% are opposed to it.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Interesting, just 1% of the usual complainers are opposed to lockdown yet the survey quoted previously would suggest that 25% are opposed to it.

Most people opposed to something aren't out looting shops.

SafeSurfer

PintOfView wrote: »

Where is this 'freedom loving' stuff coming from?
How do you define 'free'?
Are you free to drive without insurance?
Are you free to take my car if you feel like it?
Are you free to just kill someone you don't like?

I guess you will find you're not free to do any of those things. Why do you think that is?
It's because it's for the greater good of the society we live in, and you benefit from those limitations as much as the next person.

Same with covid, we accept limits to all our 'freedoms' for the moment so that we can get control of the virus for the good of all (and you'll get the benefit of it too, even though your thinking stops you from seeing that at the moment).

Obviously when I speak of freedom I’m not talking about driving with no insurance.

I’m referring to the Dutch concept of tolerance and their value of personal freedoms.

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Most people opposed to something aren't out looting shops.

Exactly. The silent 24%.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Exactly. The silent 24%.

To repeat my q from earlier, do you think there is some conspiracy going on with Covid, if yes, what is it?

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Do you think there is some conspiracy going on with Covid, if yes, what is it?

I think that the dangers of the Covid pandemic have been exaggerated. The way the WHO changed the calculation of how deaths are reported for example.
Also the blanket coverage of death WITH Covid figures, in hospital WITH Covid, in ICU WITH Covid.

The vast majority of people diagnosed with this virus have little or no illness or even symptoms in many cases. But they are not interviewed. Only the worst case scenario cases can be interviewed to whip up the fear.

There should be a cost benefit analysis of the current strategy. The number of deaths as a result of the response to Covid should be quantified and reported also.

8000 die each year in Ireland as a consequence of smoking. This is taxed and regulated and doesn’t result in the destruction of large parts of the economy and peoples lives.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I think that the dangers of the Covid pandemic have been exaggerated. The way the WHO changed the calculation of how deaths are reported for example.
Also the blanket coverage of death WITH Covid figures, in hospital WITH Covid, in ICU WITH Covid.

The vast majority of people diagnosed with this virus have little or no illness or even symptoms in many cases. But they are not interviewed. Only the worst case scenario cases can be interviewed to whip up the fear.

There should be a cost benefit analysis of the current strategy. The number of deaths as a result of the response to Covid should be quantified and reported also.

8000 die each year in Ireland as a consequence of smoking. This is taxed and regulated and doesn’t result in the destruction of large parts of the economy and peoples lives.

So in this conspiracy, who is "whipping up fear" exactly, and why?

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So in this conspiracy, who is "whipping up fear" exactly, and why?

Who appointed you as the chief inquisitor?

Here are some questions for you to ponder.

Have the WHO misrepresented a pandemic in the past?

Would the WHO benefit in terms of funding etc if this pandemic was perceived to be as serious as possible?

Have the WHO changed the way deaths are reported during this pandemic?

Are the figures as reported on RTÉ Six One news death FROM Covid or death WITH Covid?

runawaybishop

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I think that the dangers of the Covid pandemic have been exaggerated. The way the WHO changed the calculation of how deaths are reported for example.
Also the blanket coverage of death WITH Covid figures, in hospital WITH Covid, in ICU WITH Covid.

The vast majority of people diagnosed with this virus have little or no illness or even symptoms in many cases. But they are not interviewed. Only the worst case scenario cases can be interviewed to whip up the fear.

There should be a cost benefit analysis of the current strategy. The number of deaths as a result of the response to Covid should be quantified and reported also.

8000 die each year in Ireland as a consequence of smoking. This is taxed and regulated and doesn’t result in the destruction of large parts of the economy and peoples lives.

Feel free to read this thread (that you are posting in) where have discussed, several times, the difference between an infectious disease and smoking, or alcohol, or whatever other non-similar item the latest poster thinks is a gotcha.

SafeSurfer

runawaybishop wrote: »

Feel free to read this thread (that you are posting in) where have discussed, several times, the difference between an infectious disease and smoking, or alcohol, or whatever other non-similar item the latest poster thinks is a gotcha.

Seeing how your last post was basically “my mates say 99% of people want lockdown” in a thread showing a survey indicating 25% of people don’t. I don’t tend to rely on opinions on the thread for my information.