All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

The ventilators aren't used because it has transpired they are completely inappropriate for treating this type of respiratory illness and were a large factor in Italy's high death rate.

Another unsourced, unsupported claim.
Another claim that completely contradicts the previous conspiracy.

Do you guys honestly not see the pattern here?

ShatterAlan

Dohnjoe wrote: »

"I can't believe it, therefore conspiracy"

People can't believe or comprehend the world is round, therefore to them it's a giant conspiracy. You do realise how dangerously close you are to that kind of thinking right..

And before anyone chimes in with any excuses, this poster has had a multitude of straightforward explanations, all the info is easily available, there is no excuse whatsoever

You always regurgitate this "argument to incredulity" canard like it's some kind of get out of jail free card. You immediately use it as if it's an authority or you are an authority to determine that someone is unhinged if they don't believe something. You use it to shutdown a discussion and it's a cheap and immature trick.


I don't believe in an afterlife. Your response, based on your track record, would be to sceam "I don't believe it...ergo it cannot be true. Conspiracy! Lizard People!"


You can cling to that little worn-out 3 card monty stunt if it makes you happy but it doesn't make you look or sound smart or even reasonable. Just childish.


When met with someone who doesn't believe what you believe and their skepticism is well-founded it's quite easy to gauge your response. You don't take on board their doubts and try to understand them. You don't try to discuss them. You scoff and trot out the "incredulity" chestnut.



Why is that? Are you afraid that if you actually contemplate another viewpoint you might have your own worldview put under threat and must slam the door?

sabat

King Mob wrote: »

Another unsourced, unsupported claim.
Another claim that completely contradicts the previous conspiracy.

Do you guys honestly not see the pattern here?

4 minutes between my post and yours, which probably means you started typing 3 minutes after, which is barely enough time for you to have skimmed the first couple of pages of a Google search. It just proves you have no interest in discussion. How is my post a conspiracy theory?

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

4 minutes between my post and yours, which probably means you started typing 3 minutes after, which is barely enough time for you to have skimmed the first couple of pages of a Google search. It just proves you have no interest in discussion. How is my post a conspiracy theory?

If you've evidence for your claim, please show it.
I'm just pointing out that you are presenting a claim without source or support. This usually means that the claim isn't actually true.

And I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is exactly. You did not elaborate.
From what you said in your post, you appear to believe that the ventilators that were bought don't actually help with coronavirus, and that either the UK government knew this before hand, or didn't realise it until later and are trying to cover it up. You believe that this is the reason they aren't being used.

The previous claim is that they weren't being used because covid is actually not as sever as governments and experts are saying it it.

These two claims are not compatible.

If that's not what you're suggesting, please explain and detail what you are suggesting and save us all from trying to guess from vague, flippant comments with no depth.

ShatterAlan

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You mean the bubonic plague of 1665 when health care was practically unheard of except for the very wealthy?

You're really comparing covid treatment/survival today to a plague 350 years ago :pac:


Edit: Covid is not a plague.

Will you be taking a vaccine? Have you made an appointment to take one?


If not, why not? And if you have scheduled a vaccination appointment will you keep us all abreast of how you are doing after you have been "jabbed".


If this disease is as serious as you make out then will you take the jab and let us know how it goes during and after?

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Will you be taking a vaccine? Have you made an appointment to take one?


If not, why not? And if you have scheduled a vaccination appointment will you keep us all abreast of how you are doing after you have been "jabbed".


If this disease is as serious as you make out then will you take the jab and let us know how it goes during and after?

Again, you guys are now trying to deflect back to the debunked idea that the vaccine is somehow more dangerous than any other vaccine.

The chances of any side effects from vaccines are 10000 times less likely than the chances of dying of covid, even if we accept your lower, unsupported claims of it's death rate.
If you are saying that covid is not something to worry about, you have to accept that the vaccine is not something to worry about.
That is if your beliefs are consistent, honest and based on facts.

runawaybishop

GT89 wrote: »

If there was a really severe plague going on the hospitals would be out the door every square inch of space would be used including the outpatient area in fact there would be probably be field hospitals set up in the car park of the hospitals. But no there is plenty of unoccupied in the hsopitals and the nightingale have not been used for months but you continue to believe that UK hospitals are at breaking point when quite frankly they are not.

Plague?

Anyway, we are trying to avoid having people in field hospitals, hence the restrictions.

ICU consultant at University Hospital Limerick, Dr Catherine Motherway, said intensive care units “expect to see increased numbers as admissions continue to come in”

.....

She said “different ethics” are established in these situations where workers have to look towards “saving the most lives as opposed to treating the sickest first”.

^^ this is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Because we have been successful so far, doesn't mean hospitals are not busy and that there is a conspiracy.

runawaybishop

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Apparently there are less than 60 people in hospitals in Ireland in intensive care as a result of Covid-19. I'm open to correction on this figure but it seems like a tiny amount.

'THERE ARE NOW 921 people hospitalised with Covid-19, a figure topping the previous peak of 881 in hospital in mid-April. '
Compare this with the situation back in say October where we had 238 people in hospital and we had 36 free beds.

October report --- 13 healthcare facilities in Ireland have no ICU beds available including hospitals in Dublin, Offaly and Westmeath. In Cork, Mercy hospital and Cork University Hospital have no ICU beds available.

Right now we have according to the HSE: 'there are 287 fully-staffed public ICU beds. Yesterday 255 of the adult critical care beds were occupied – including 75 by Covid-19 patients – and 20 paediatric critical care beds were occupied. '

So we have 32 beds free and, as I am sure you know, cases don't instantly transfer into icu, it takes a week or 2 before they hit critical care requirements. Given we are seeing 4/5/6k cases a day the last few days that is a concern.

Its not just covid patients that need ICU beds remember. If we hit capacity then decisions are made as to who can get the care they require.

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

You always regurgitate this "argument to incredulity" canard like it's some kind of get out of jail free card. You immediately use it as if it's an authority or you are an authority to determine that someone is unhinged if they don't believe something. You use it to shutdown a discussion and it's a cheap and immature trick.

Belief in far-fetched conspiracies or blind denialism often requires the same faulty thinking. We see that same faulty thinking in this forum again and again. If posters are repeatedly going to use the same bad logic to back their arguments, then it will be repeatedly pointed out.

I don't believe in an afterlife. Your response, based on your track record, would be to sceam "I don't believe it...ergo it cannot be true. Conspiracy! Lizard People!"

Is not really argument from incredulity. I get the feeling you still don't grasp what it is.

Here is the definition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity#:~:text=Argument%20from%20incredulity%2C%20also%20known,or%20is%20difficult%20to%20imagine.

The Raging Bile Duct

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Will you be taking a vaccine? Have you made an appointment to take one?


If not, why not? And if you have scheduled a vaccination appointment will you keep us all abreast of how you are doing after you have been "jabbed".


If this disease is as serious as you make out then will you take the jab and let us know how it goes during and after?

How do you even make an appointment at this stage? From looking at the provisional vaccine allocation groups, I'm second from bottom on the list so I'll have to wait my turn while people that need it more than me get it first. I'm not able to speak for the other poster but I have zero problem getting the vaccine. I can report back to you when I get it but you'd be waiting a fairly long time.

Timberrrrrrrr

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Will you be taking a vaccine? Have you made an appointment to take one?


If not, why not? And if you have scheduled a vaccination appointment will you keep us all abreast of how you are doing after you have been "jabbed".


If this disease is as serious as you make out then will you take the jab and let us know how it goes during and after?

I have checked my eligibility, going by my age/health i am in the region of 35 millionth on the list, I'll let you know when I get a bit higher.

Dohnjoe

Interesting how most have completely given up on the conspiracy and are now just on the denialist hamster wheel

"I know more than all the experts and scientists and hospital staff and medical professionals"

The Dunning-Kruger effect is in overdrive

CCP24

Whitty comparing the flu to covid interesting , these lockdown are staying
http://bbc.in/2Xeen80

runawaybishop

CCP24 wrote: »

Whitty comparing the flu to covid interesting , these lockdown are staying
http://bbc.in/2Xeen80

On a separate question about the new variant, Chris Whitty says the threat at the moment is "extraordinarily high" if people do not adhere to the lockdown rules.

He says vaccinations will reduce the risk going forward but only "by degrees" and the restrictions will not disappear in a "single bound".

Some curbs may be needed next winter, he adds, citing the number of people who die each year from flu.

^^ he said no such thing?

CCP24

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Interesting how most have completely given up on the conspiracy and are now just on the denialist hamster wheel

"I know more than all the experts and scientists and hospital staff and medical professionals"

The Dunning-Kruger effect is in overdrive

Its not a conspiracy anymore really is it, you and your buddies have been arguing with everyone here that questions the narrative , and anyone that even mentioned that the flu / pnuemonia/ or any other chest infection is pretty much covid has been told they were lying or a CT and not taking it seriously, now we have tony H and the uk government saying what we have been saying from the start .

Wasn't trump disgraced for saying this a few months back?

Yet here we are lads
https://extra.ie/2021/01/05/news/irish-news/holohan-covid-flu-like-symptoms
bbc.in/2Xeen80

Dohnjoe

CCP24 wrote: »

Whitty comparing the flu to covid interesting , these lockdown are staying
http://bbc.in/2Xeen80

Not sure why you've linked to a live news feed?

The measures are in place due to the virus, no other "nefarious" reason. When it begins to abate, then measures against it will also abate.

runawaybishop

CCP24 wrote: »

Its not a conspiracy anymore really is it, you and your buddies have been arguing with everyone here that questions the narrative , and anyone that even mentioned that the flu / pnuemonia/ or any other chest infection is pretty much covid has been told they were lying or a CT and not taking it seriously, now we have tony H and the uk government saying what we have been saying from the start .

Wasn't trump disgraced for saying this a few months back?

Yet here we are lads
https://extra.ie/2021/01/05/news/irish-news/holohan-covid-flu-like-symptoms
bbc.in/2Xeen80

Another link dump and then a false statement on what is contained in the link.

You were wrong from the start.

Heres what was actually said.

‘If you have flu-like symptoms now, you might as well accept this is COVID, the positivity rate in the community is approaching 25%,’ Dr Holohan said.

‘If you have these symptoms, it’s unlikely to be anything else other than COVID.

Also, trump is a moron.

Dohnjoe

CCP24 wrote: »

Its not a conspiracy anymore really is it, you and your buddies have been arguing with everyone here that questions the narrative , and anyone that even mentioned that the flu / pnuemonia/ or any other chest infection is pretty much covid has been told they were lying or a CT and not taking it seriously, now we have tony H and the uk government saying what we have been saying from the start .

No one on this thread has yet presented a coherent or credible conspiracy. If you have one, please share the details.

Apart from that individuals have been engaging in denial and whataboutery regarding the situation. The facts contradict them.

Timberrrrrrrr

CCP24 wrote: »

Its not a conspiracy anymore really is it, you and your buddies have been arguing with everyone here that questions the narrative , and anyone that even mentioned that the flu / pnuemonia/ or any other chest infection is pretty much covid has been told they were lying or a CT and not taking it seriously, now we have tony H and the uk government saying what we have been saying from the start .

Wasn't trump disgraced for saying this a few months back?

Yet here we are lads
https://extra.ie/2021/01/05/news/irish-news/holohan-covid-flu-like-symptoms
bbc.in/2Xeen80

You claimed covid was the plague yesterday, you obviously have no idea what you're waffling about.

CCP24

runawaybishop wrote: »

Another link dump and then a false statement on what is contained in the link.

You were wrong from the start.

Heres what was actually said.

‘If you have flu-like symptoms now, you might as well accept this is COVID, the positivity rate in the community is approaching 25%,’ Dr Holohan said.

‘If you have these symptoms, it’s unlikely to be anything else other than COVID.

Also, trump is a moron.

Yes trump is a moron .. , so in that case everyone in this country has had covid by now going by that.

runawaybishop

CCP24 wrote: »

Yes trump is a moron .. , so in that case everyone in this country has had covid by now going by that.

Your logical leaps are hilarious. What are you actually trying to say?

CCP24

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You claimed covid was the plague yesterday, you obviously have no idea what you're waffling about.

Timber I never made that statement.

CCP24

runawaybishop wrote: »

Your logical leaps are hilarious. What are you actually trying to say?

Why are we in lockdown if everyone has had covid and the majority are still alive and well.

runawaybishop

CCP24 wrote: »

Why are we in lockdown if everyone has had covid and the majority are still alive and well.

Who has made that claim?

Dohnjoe

CCP24 wrote: »

Why are we in lockdown if everyone has had covid and the majority are still alive and well.

What on earth are you talking about?

ShatterAlan

sabat wrote: »

The ventilators aren't used because it has transpired they are completely inappropriate for treating this type of respiratory illness and were a large factor in Italy's high death rate.

Indeed. Many people were put on ventilators and died as a result of this decision. But the virology experts on here who are obviously all professors in toxicology and various other bio-sciences know all about ventilators and how they are the silver bullet for covid patients

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Indeed. Many people were put on ventilators and died as a result of this decision.

Mechanical ventilators have their own risks. That is weighed against the risk of the patient dying from not being able to breathe on their own. We know more about treating Covid patients now than in e.g. March/April.

These critically ill patients die because they are so sick from COVID-19 that they needed a ventilator to remain alive, not because the ventilator fatally harms them, said Dr. Hassan Khouli, chair of critical care medicine at Cleveland Clinic.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200415/ventilators-helping-or-harming-covid-19-patients#1

Do you have a conspiracy or is it just one misunderstanding after another?

CCP24

We were told this is nothing like the flu for months now we are told to treat the flu differently as its not covid, exactly now when its prime season for flu /pneumonia deaths and cases , as well as suicidal deaths and alot who attempt suicide end up in ICU wards recovering too, just seems convenient to me.

Because now all deaths cannot be questioned because it will be written off as covid, if its not covid how do we prove it?

Because flu doesn't exist anymore?.

Every year there is deaths and cases for influenza and they have been higher than the covid cases so why are we being locked up when the influenza cases were the same and ICU were critical previous years and now all of a sudden we are to sit indoors and wait for the magic bullet the almighty vaccine , which they say is not even going to be that magical because it will be like the flu and will always be around, and yet , we will still have to do more lockdowns , Whitty says restrictions might need to be reintroduced next winter, regardless.

So conspiracy is are we been controlled and scared enough so we take the new mRna vaccine and the many that will follow after because viruses do'nt ever go away, and they have been around for hundreds of years.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/50625/8-historically-terrifying-viruses

Dohnjoe

CCP24 wrote: »

We were told this is nothing like the flu for months now we are told to treat the flu differently as its not covid, exactly now when its prime season for flu /pneumonia deaths and cases , as well as suicidal deaths and alot who attempt suicide end up in ICU wards recovering too, just seems convenient to me.

No one is "telling you" anything. It's simply information and facts being passed on that you can very easily check for yourself.

Because now all deaths cannot be questioned because it will be written off as covid, if its not covid how do we prove it?

Nonsensical question. Covid deaths are calculated per country, each country has it's own methods. It's not an exact process because certain cases are not black/white.

Because flu doesn't exist anymore?.

It does. There's just less of it because all the measures that we are using to prevent us from getting one infectious disease (Covid) work against other infectious illnesses

Every year there is deaths and cases for influenza and they have been higher than the covid cases so why are we being locked up when the influenza cases were the same and ICU were critical previous years and now all of a sudden we are to sit indoors and wait for the magic bullet the almighty vaccine , which they say is not even going to be that magical because it will be like the flu and will always be around, and yet , we will still have to do more lockdowns , Whitty says restrictions might need to be reintroduced next winter, regardless.

Covid is more serious than seasonal flu (for which there's already a jab). It's threatening to overwhelm hospital services and staff, which is why we have measures to reduce it.

This has been explained countless times in these threads.

So conspiracy is are we been controlled and scared enough so we take the new mRna vaccine and the many that will follow after because viruses do'nt ever go away, and they have been around for hundreds of years.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/50625/8-historically-terrifying-viruses

Infectious disease do go away, we've managed to eliminate a few. As for your conspiracy, it seems to be based on your poor grasp of what's going on.

ShatterAlan

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have checked my eligibility, going by my age/health i am in the region of 35 millionth on the list, I'll let you know when I get a bit higher.

Out of a population of circa 5 million then you must be the least susceptible person in the world, assuming you ar in Ireland.