All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

SafeSurfer

Fighting Tao wrote: »

How about all the other accidents people have doing daily things they can’t do during lockdown?

The covid deaths are reported. Tough crap if you don’t believe it. No one can stop you from surrounding yourself in the lies you want to believe. Many have tried to help.

Road deaths increased in 2020 compared to 2019, 2018 etc.

These aren’t lies just because you don’t want to believe them.

Fighting Tao

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Road deaths increased in 2020 compared to 2019, 2018 etc.

These aren’t lies just because you don’t want to believe them.

So how are the figures faked? Remember that it has been debunked many times.

Also, what does it have to do with permanent restrictions?

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Road deaths increased in 2020 compared to 2019, 2018 etc.

These aren’t lies just because you don’t want to believe them.

Sorry, but it is a lie to claim that the numbers of covid deaths are being faked.

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

As you correctly state, the graph shows deaths from ALL causes. The graph correlates perfectly with lockdown but the number of deaths caused by lockdown are not being calculated. No doubt some day they will be.

Are you seriously telling me that the excess deaths were caused by lockdown, and not by covid?

How do you explain the drop in deaths in May and June, while the lockdown was still in place?

As I said to you before, be honest at least to yourself even if you have to try to fine arguments to support previous erroneous assertions!

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

Sorry, but it is a lie to claim that the numbers of covid deaths are being faked.

It’s not a lie to claim that people who did not die from Covid are being recorded as Covid deaths.

SafeSurfer

PintOfView wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that the excess deaths were caused by lockdown, and not by covid?

How do you explain the drop in deaths in May and June, while the lockdown was still in place?

As I said to you before, be honest at least to yourself even if you have to try to fine arguments to support previous erroneous assertions!

Some were absolutely.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/07/lockdown-killed-two-three-died-coronavirus/amp/

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It’s not a lie to claim that people who did not die from Covid are being recorded as Covid deaths.

Ok.
How many?

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

Ok.
How many?

The estimate in the UK is around 20,000 I believe.

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The estimate in the UK is around 20,000 I believe.

You are claiming that one fifth of UK deaths are falsely attributed to covid.
And this is based on what evidence?

SafeSurfer

Other estimates are about a third of excess deaths are attributable not to COVID but to the responses to Covid.


https://www.newswise.com/factcheck/are-a-third-of-the-excess-deaths-this-year-not-linked-to-covid-19-yes-are-they-directly-linked-to-the-lockdown-it-s-complicated/?article_id=740863&fc=home

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

You are claiming that one fifth of UK deaths are falsely attributed to covid.
And this is based on what evidence?

Excess deaths.

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Excess deaths.

Please provide a source.

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Some were absolutely.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/07/lockdown-killed-two-three-died-coronavirus/amp/

I don't doubt that there were some deaths that happened due to hospitals being overcrowded, and normal medical aid not being available to those that needed it.
I might dispute the numbers in that article if I could read it (I don't have a subscription).

However what do you propose we should have done?
a) decide that the immediate priority was clear out the hospitals in anticipation of a surge in people with covid (as was the pattern in Italy), and thereby help keep alive as many covid patients as possible.
b) decide to carry on with business as usual last April, and then be unable to handle the surge in covid patients who needed hospital treatment, tell them to go home and take paracetaumol, and as a result have a much higher mortality rate from covid.

It sounds like b) is what you are suggesting we should have done.

And in addition, if you were the minister for health you wouldn't have introduced the lockdown,
and there would have been a lot more people dead, who are still alive today,
and I expect you would still be able to justify that with some other theory!

runawaybishop

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The estimate in the UK is around 20,000 I believe.

The UK underreport covid deaths.

King Mob

PintOfView wrote: »

And in addition, if you were the minister for health you wouldn't have introduced the lockdown,
and there would have been a lot more people dead, who are still alive today,
and I expect you would still be able to justify that with some other theory!

The general go for this is when governments aren't fast to react, conspiracy theorists claim that the virus is actually designed to be super lethal and a plot to depopulate the world etc.
This was being claimed a bit at the start of this pandemic too.

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

The general go for this is when governments aren't fast to react, conspiracy theorists claim that the virus is actually designed to be super lethal and a plot to depopulate the world etc.
This was being claimed a bit at the start of this pandemic too.

No. The theory I put forward was that deaths from Covid have been exaggerated.

Dogmatic posters start quoting excess death figures and when this shows that lockdown HAS resulted in deaths and that these also show up in excess death figures, said posters resort to hypothetical scenarios and other nonsense.

Why not just accept the facts rather than getting into knots trying to sustain your discredited dogma?

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Other estimates are about a third of excess deaths are attributable not to COVID but to the responses to Covid.


https://www.newswise.com/factcheck/are-a-third-of-the-excess-deaths-this-year-not-linked-to-covid-19-yes-are-they-directly-linked-to-the-lockdown-it-s-complicated/?article_id=740863&fc=home

Actual source of this article:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761

Excess deaths attributed to causes other than COVID-19 could reflect deaths from unrecognized or undocumented infection with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 or deaths among uninfected patients resulting from disruptions produced by the pandemic.

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

No. The theory I put forward was that deaths from Covid have been exaggerated.

Yes. This is the lie you're telling.
You also have not explained why this his happening or who is behind this.
And you also keep dodging questions.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Dogmatic posters start quoting excess death figures and when this shows that lockdown HAS resulted in deaths and that these also show up in excess death figures, said posters resort to hypothetical scenarios and other nonsense.

Ok.
How many deaths? Provide your source.
Stop dodging.

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

Yes. This is the lie you're telling.
You also have not explained why this his happening or who is behind this.
And you also keep dodging questions.


Ok.
How many deaths? Provide your source.
Stop dodging.

Do you still believe excess death comparison is a satisfactory way to measure Covid deaths?

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you still believe excess death comparison is a satisfactory way to measure Covid deaths?

I'm not going to answer this question to allow you to continue to dodge mine.

How many deaths are due to the lockdown and are being falsely attributed to coivd.
Provide a source for this claim.

Stopping being dishonest and evasive and address the point directly and honestly like a man.

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

I'm not going to answer this question to allow you to continue to dodge mine.

How many deaths are due to the lockdown and are being falsely attributed to coivd.
Provide a source for this claim.

Stopping being dishonest and evasive and address the point directly and honestly like a man.

Please clarify your question.

If you mean how many of the excess deaths that are exclusively being attributed to Covid are as a result of lockdown and not Covid, that figure is estimated to be around a third.

Also your point about addressing the “point directly and honestly like a man” is misogynistic and offensive.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

No. The theory I put forward was that deaths from Covid have been exaggerated.

You aren't putting forward a theory. You haven't detailed anything nor answered any questions. It's a bizarre approach.

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you still believe excess death comparison is a satisfactory way to measure Covid deaths?

Excess deaths are just that, deaths far in excess of normal for the time of year.

It's pretty obvious that, regardless of classification, the excess deaths were caused by the pandemic, either directly, or indirectly due to the squeeze on the health system.

What difference does it make if 20% of deaths were actually collateral damage, they still should not have happened if not for covid.

How does any of that support your contention that the virus is a hoax, and that the deaths were due to lockdown?

Can I ask you a straight question.
What would you have done if you were the minister of health last March (lets say you had complete power, without needing a consensus of cabinet)?

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Please clarify your question.

If you mean how many of the excess deaths that are exclusively being attributed to Covid are as a result of lockdown and not Covid, that figure is estimated to be around a third.

Ok. Provide your source then.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Also your point about addressing the “point directly and honestly like a man” is misogynistic and offensive.

Ok I apologise.
Address my point directly honestly and like a grown up.

SafeSurfer

PintOfView wrote: »

Excess deaths are just that, deaths far in excess of normal for the time of year.

It's pretty obvious that, regardless of classification, the excess deaths were caused by the pandemic, either directly, or indirectly due to the squeeze on the health system.

What difference does it make if 20% of deaths were actually collateral damage, they still should not have happened if not for covid.

How does any of that support your contention that the virus is a hoax, and that the deaths were due to lockdown?

Can I ask you a straight question.
What would you have done if you were the minister of health last March (lets say you had complete power, without needing a consensus of cabinet)?

You are misrepresenting me.

I have never contended that the virus is a hoax.

What I suggested was that the number of deaths FROM Covid 19 is exaggerated.

So are you beginning to admit that some of the excess deaths were due to lockdown rather than the disease of Covid 19?

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What I suggested was that the number of deaths FROM Covid 19 is exaggerated.

"Prove the death figures to me, I don't accept it, therefore exaggeration" over and over again is not a suggestion or a theory, it's just denialism. That's all you are doing here.

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What I suggested was that the number of deaths FROM Covid 19 is exaggerated.

So are you beginning to admit that some of the excess deaths were due to lockdown rather than the disease of Covid 19?

You keep suggesting this, but you keep running away from showing the figures and the sources for this.

Why?

Why are the figures being exaggerated?
How does this relate to the idea of some of the lockdown measure being permanent?

Maybe rather than telling us what you don't believe, actually state support your beliefs.

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

You keep suggesting this, but you keep running away from showing the figures and the sources for this.

Why?

Why are the figures being exaggerated?
How does this relate to the idea of some of the lockdown measure being permanent?

Maybe rather than telling us what you don't believe, actually state support your beliefs.

It's incredible

Someone is claiming X is happening. Fair enough but..

Why? they can't answer
How? they can't answer
Details? they can't provide

Their entire argument is based on "nu uh"

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are misrepresenting me.

I have never contended that the virus is a hoax.

What I suggested was that the number of deaths FROM Covid 19 is exaggerated.

So are you beginning to admit that some of the excess deaths were due to lockdown rather than the disease of Covid 19?

You are avoiding the question of what you propose we should have done last April (eg. if you were minster for health)?

Saying that some of the excess deaths were due to lockdown is bit disingeneous.
Are you suggesting that if we we decided to lock down for no reason, a percentage of those deaths would have happened anyway?
and how would that have happened?

If we had just decided to reduced hospital capacity to the same extent as we did last year, yes we could expect people to die from lack of medical care, simply because of lack of capacity (and even if we didn't lock down).

But we didn't reduce hospital capacity for no reason, it was done for a reason.

Again I ask you what you propose we should have done last April?
It's easy to be an armchair general, a little bit less easy when you have to make decisions!

Risteard81

runawaybishop wrote: »

The UK underreport covid deaths.

No they don't. They outrageously overreport.

It started as anyone who has ever had a positive PCR test for COVID would be a COVID death, regardless of when they died or how. (In other words, COVID would eventually have a 100% mortality rate.)

This changed months later to any cause inside 28 days of a positive PCR test.

Then they sought to change it to any cause inside a 60 day period of a positive PCR test.

Massive overreporting of so-called "COVID" deaths.