All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

SafeSurfer

PintOfView wrote: »

You see how easy it is to mis-interpret information.

Sorry to badger you, but how would you have handled the pandemic last April if you were the minister for health?

Firstly I would have been reacting before Aril if I was minister for health.

Seeing how the vast majority of people who died from Covid were elderly or had severe underlying illnesses I would have advised these people to shield and provided the resources to effect this.

SafeSurfer

runawaybishop wrote: »

But the virus isn't serious
No one is dying
Hospitals are empty
Oh all those deaths aren't from covid
*Fingers in ears*

Here is a question for you.

If a patient is in a maternity ward in hospital expecting a baby and they test positive for Covid 19, do you think it is accurate to include them in figures of people in hospital due to Covid 19?

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Firstly I would have been reacting before Aril if I was minister for health.

Seeing how the vast majority of people who died from Covid were elderly or had severe underlying illnesses I would have advised these people to shield and provided the resources to effect this.

That's a start.
What resources would you have provided to the elderly to help them shield?

And would you have advised the general population to socially distance, and work from home?
and would you have closed pubs and restaurants?

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Here is a question for you.

If a patient is in a maternity ward in hospital expecting a baby and they test positive for Covid 19, do you think it is accurate to include them in figures of people in hospital due to Covid 19?

What does that question contribute to the big picture?
Are you claiming a significant number of hospital covid patients are in maternity wards?

SafeSurfer

PintOfView wrote: »

That's a start.
What resources would you have provided to the elderly to help them shield?

And would you have advised the general population to socially distance, and work from home?
and would you have closed pubs and restaurants?

If you have a point that doesn’t involve me formulating a counter factual, hypothetical pandemic response manifesto, please make it. Saturday afternoons are precious.

SafeSurfer

PintOfView wrote: »

What does that question contribute to the big picture?
Are you claiming a significant number of hospital covid patients are in maternity wards?

Quick. Look over there.

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you have a point that doesn’t involve me formulating a counter factual, hypothetical pandemic response manifesto, please make it. Saturday afternoons are precious.

My point is the lockdown was unavoidable if we were to be responsible, and avoid what happened in Italy a couple of weeks before that.

It's up to you to provide an alternative if you say it wasn't necessary.

So was it necessary or not?

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Quick. Look over there.

Again, you're ignoring points already been put to you.
If you suddenly wish to stay on topic, I have responded to your post. You are ignoring my points.

This is because you have no valid response I think.
Your links didn't support your claims, and it appears you didn't actual read the studies beyond their headlines.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Here is a question for you.

If a patient is in a maternity ward in hospital expecting a baby and they test positive for Covid 19, do you think it is accurate to include them in figures of people in hospital due to Covid 19?

The figures are an estimation not an exact science. You are deliberately highlighting individual cases in a pedantic fashion to cast doubt on the overall figures in order to hint at a conspiracy you can't detail. That's the default MO of history/science deniers and revisionists the world over. There's been 9 months of this going on on this forum with no progress. No conspiracy and no credible alternative figures.

Fighting Tao

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A few deaths? In England they delisted over 5000 Covid deaths last year.

Welcome to the world of evidence based science. The numbers were reduced when new evidence was produced. So I’m not sure what your point is. If the 5000 is correct (please support it), then it is 5k in approximately 100k deaths and is the equivalent of 160 deaths denotified in Ireland. It really is a tiny number, and it is evidence based.

runawaybishop

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Here is a question for you.

If a patient is in a maternity ward in hospital expecting a baby and they test positive for Covid 19, do you think it is accurate to include them in figures of people in hospital due to Covid 19?

Only if she requires actual hospital care for covid.

It that where we are moving the goalposts now. Covid cases in hospital are also fake?

Grow up.

brianhere

At least Leo Varadkar is being honest at this, he is talking now about a few more years or 'indefinitely' continuing these measures: https://youtu.be/-HtQ-nDb4Kw . He is also clear that the Vaccine will make no difference, you will have to keep all these measures to see did you actually get 'herd immunity' even though nearly everybody was vaccinated.

runawaybishop

brianhere wrote: »

At least Leo Varadkar is being honest at this, he is talking now about a few more years or 'indefinitely' continuing these measures: https://youtu.be/-HtQ-nDb4Kw . He is also clear that the Vaccine will make no difference, you will have to keep all these measures to see did you actually get 'herd immunity' even though nearly everybody was vaccinated.

We've already seen the actual speech, where he states some restrictions are likely.

There is zero talk about indefinite restrictions, except from lunatics. No one has said the vaccines will make no difference, again except from nutjobs.

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The figures are an estimation not an exact science. You are deliberately highlighting individual cases in a pedantic fashion to cast doubt on the overall figures in order to hint at a conspiracy you can't detail. That's the default MO of history/science deniers and revisionists the world over. There's been 9 months of this going on on this forum with no progress. No conspiracy and no credible alternative figures.

History deniers?

In order to establish truth in history we have to compare different accounts and weigh their competing narratives.

We have three competing narratives here.

1. Deaths from Covid 19 are under reported.

2. Deaths from Covid 19 are just right.

3. Deaths from Covid 19 are over reported.

It is arrogant of posters here, to conclusively argue that only 2 of these scenarios are possible.

runawaybishop

SafeSurfer wrote: »

History deniers?

In order to establish truth in history we have to compare different accounts and weigh their competing narratives.

We have three competing narratives here.

1. Deaths from Covid 19 are under reported.

2. Deaths from Covid 19 are just right.

3. Deaths from Covid 19 are over reported.

It is arrogant of posters here, to conclusively argue that only 2 of these scenarios are possible.

Nobody has made that claim. Knock it off with the strawman arguments. They are childish.

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

History deniers?

In order to establish truth in history we have to compare different accounts and weigh their competing narratives.

We have three competing narratives here.

1. Deaths from Covid 19 are under reported.

2. Deaths from Covid 19 are just right.

3. Deaths from Covid 19 are over reported.

It is arrogant of posters here, to conclusively argue that only 2 of these scenarios are possible.

What difference does it make if the numbers are over or under reported by a few percent?
It doesn't change the reality that there is a pandemic in progress and there have been/are excess deaths
(3,500 deaths last April vs average of 2,500 deaths in April of prev three years).

What does History deniers refer to?

Are you talking about the exact number of deaths due to covid, vs who would have died anyway?
To get to an exact number is difficult, as evidenced by the links you provided.
At the end of the day talking about the exact number is being pedantic, and doesn't change the overall picture.

PintOfView

brianhere wrote: »

At least Leo Varadkar is being honest at this, he is talking now about a few more years or 'indefinitely' continuing these measures: https://youtu.be/-HtQ-nDb4Kw . He is also clear that the Vaccine will make no difference, you will have to keep all these measures to see did you actually get 'herd immunity' even though nearly everybody was vaccinated.

You are mis-quoting Leo Varadkar, and misinterpreting what he said.
Did you listen carefully to that youtube yourself?

He was responding to a question about zero covid strategy (it was in the news, and proposed by several people in the past week).
What it means is that we would lock down for a few more weeks and get the virus close to zero. We would then be able to open up and, by having a mandatory hotel quarantine for anyone coming into the country, we try to maintain zero covid (like New Zealand).

He was arguing against that strategy, and one of his arguments was that if we did achieve zero covid then
"surely it would go on for a couple of years, or maybe indefinitely, because covid is now around the world ..."
The zero covid strategy was what he was talking about, not a lockdown, and he was actually arguing against it!!

When you say "he is talking now about a few more years, or indefinitely continuing these measures"
you are making it seem he's talking about the current lockdown, where in fact he is not,
so you are misleading whoever listens to you, and essentially planting ideas in their heads that are false.

Do you want to listen to that youtube again, and correct the record?

brianhere

I am afraid I have listened carefully to the interview and you will note he absolutely is talking about these measures lasting indefinitely. Its true that he is not saying this is now government policy, or about the specific current lockdown situation because anyway that is supposed to ease in early March, but for the Tanáiste of the country to be talking openly about these type of measures in an important press conference on the virus is very significant. Clearly they trial balloon their ideas like that and then they actually do it.

Not that long ago it was all weird and woolly speculation about vaccine passports and compulsory quarantine zones/hotels/ (army camps, as now speculated in the Irish Independent), and yet thats exactly what is unfolding in front of us. The truth is there is no limit to what they have and soon will impose us, because there is just no real opposition to them taking all these measures. They will move as far in this tyrannous path as peoples compliance will let them, and, as far as I can see, with the current generation of Irish people, thats just limitless.

brianhere

Power in politics works a but like money to a crooked businessman, they will just keep taking it off you until you object. There is nobody objecting now so they will continue to impose their overarching power on top of us.

runawaybishop

brianhere wrote: »

I am afraid I have listened carefully to the interview

No you haven't. You have failed to understand something very simple, as explained patiently to you. Nothing you have said is true, or even makes sense.

How can you believe such nonsense?

aido79

brianhere wrote: »

I am afraid I have listened carefully to the interview and you will note he absolutely is talking about these measures lasting indefinitely. Its true that he is not saying this is now government policy, or about the specific current lockdown situation because anyway that is supposed to ease in early March, but for the Tanáiste of the country to be talking openly about these type of measures in an important press conference on the virus is very significant. Clearly they trial balloon their ideas like that and then they actually do it.

Not that long ago it was all weird and woolly speculation about vaccine passports and compulsory quarantine zones/hotels/ (army camps, as now speculated in the Irish Independent), and yet thats exactly what is unfolding in front of us. The truth is there is no limit to what they have and soon will impose us, because there is just no real opposition to them taking all these measures. They will move as far in this tyrannous path as peoples compliance will let them, and, as far as I can see, with the current generation of Irish people, thats just limitless.

You sound like Ben Gilroy. He put up a video ranting and raving about this kind of thing the other evening outside the Dail and managed to get his poisonous Facebook page Tiger Reborn taken down(hopefully for good this time). He just wants people to know the "truth" like yourself.

What exactly do you think the government have to gain from any of this except reduce their chances of getting reelected?

PintOfView

brianhere wrote: »

I am afraid I have listened carefully to the interview and you will note he absolutely is talking about these measures lasting indefinitely. Its true that he is not saying this is now government policy, or about the specific current lockdown situation because anyway that is supposed to ease in early March, but for the Tanáiste of the country to be talking openly about these type of measures in an important press conference on the virus is very significant. Clearly they trial balloon their ideas like that and then they actually do it.

Not that long ago it was all weird and woolly speculation about vaccine passports and compulsory quarantine zones/hotels/ (army camps, as now speculated in the Irish Independent), and yet thats exactly what is unfolding in front of us. The truth is there is no limit to what they have and soon will impose us, because there is just no real opposition to them taking all these measures. They will move as far in this tyrannous path as peoples compliance will let them, and, as far as I can see, with the current generation of Irish people, thats just limitless.

Not carefully enough!!
Here are his words:

"If you're serious about elimination, and you're serious about covid being zero,
surely it would go on for a couple of years, or maybe indefinitely,
because covid is now around the world, it's always going to be active in some part of the world,
so whenever you open your country you then don't have zero covid any more,
it then re-enters, so that is one of the problems with a zero covid strategy, or elimination strategies,
you have to, if it's possible, it's not possible for us, but if you can seal your country off entirely,
when do you ever unseal because then inevitably you let the virus back in again and
you expose a naive population to the virus at that point, and that's why New Zealand,
that's why they don't even intend to consider re-opening to foreign travel until they've vaccinated their population,
they haven't even started vaccinating their population yet,
so one thing that does concern me about this debate sometimes, will always want, you know,
the one thing that we could do that would solve it in a few months,
and that's part of what I know both NEPHET and government find a bit frustrating about zero covid,
the promise if only you did this one thing ... "
video fast fwds at this point and other points are covered ...


When you say
" ...for the Tanáiste of the country to be talking openly about these type of measures in an important press conference on the virus is very significant ..."
you are persisting in trying to mislead the reader into thinking that he mentioned these measures as a proposal.
If you read the transcript carefully you should be able to see that you are misrepresenting him.
He is actually arguing against the notion of zero covid, the opposite of what you are saying.

Can you not see that with your carelessness with the truth you are looking like the propagandist you accuse others of being?

King Mob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

History deniers?

Yup. The tactics and arguments being used by conspiracy theorists are similar in style to the ones being used by people who deny science (climate change denial) and history (Holocaust denial).
I understand people are often very upset by this comparison. If that's the case here, I'd suggest stop using similar tactics.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It is arrogant of posters here, to conclusively argue that only 2 of these scenarios are possible.

Who has argued that?

You are engaging in a strawman argument.

You are claiming that the numbers are being significantly over reported. You have not shown any support for this narrative. You constantly refused to even acknowledge the question. When you did finally respond, the links you provided not only didn't support your narrative, they specifically stated that there might be significant under reporting.

And now, of course, you're dodging that point now too.

NaFirinne

This will be an interesting documentary.

https://planetlockdownfilm.com/

SafeSurfer

King Mob wrote: »

Yup. The tactics and arguments being used by conspiracy theorists are similar in style to the ones being used by people who deny science (climate change denial) and history (Holocaust denial).
I understand people are often very upset by this comparison. If that's the case here, I'd suggest stop using similar tactics.


Who has argued that?

You are engaging in a strawman argument.

You are claiming that the numbers are being significantly over reported. You have not shown any support for this narrative. You constantly refused to even acknowledge the question. When you did finally respond, the links you provided not only didn't support your narrative, they specifically stated that there might be significant under reporting.

And now, of course, you're dodging that point now too.

There is nothing scientific about how the number of people in hospital because of Covid or the number of deaths because of Covid are determined.

Using the “denier” moniker to end debate is a common tactic for those desperately trying to prevent any peeking behind the Great Oz’s curtain.

arccosh

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Using the “denier” moniker to end debate is a common tactic for those desperately trying to prevent any peeking behind the Great Oz’s curtain.

it's not a tactic when it's a factual point though?

you not agreeing with the above point, makes you not a denier, which sort of goes against everything you've argued for in this thread?

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is nothing scientific about how the number of people in hospital because of Covid or the number of deaths because of Covid are determined.

Using the “denier” moniker to end debate is a common tactic for those desperately trying to prevent any peeking behind the Great Oz’s curtain.

We haven't seen any details of your claim or any proper support of it. You haven't provided any credible alternative figures (you don't even seem to be interested in them). You've relied almost entirely on subjective denial so far. It's a textbook example of a denier position.

sabat

I'll ask again: where has the flu gone?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9206071/amp/Flu-wiped-lowest-level-130-YEARS-seasonal-virus-plummets-95.html?__twitter_impression=true

Apparently "it's been explained to me already" though I can't find any such posts...

PintOfView

brianhere wrote: »

Power in politics works a but like money to a crooked businessman, they will just keep taking it off you until you object. There is nobody objecting now so they will continue to impose their overarching power on top of us.

I think that's a little simplistic. I don't see politics imposing overarching power on top of us.
Do you think the politicians get to decide what to do in the medium term?
How do they get re-elected within 4 years if they do a solo run?

At the moment the lockdown is being imposed with the consent of the people. The politicians would soon know if the majority didn't see the logic of the lockdown.

Before last week I had already observed rumblings of zero covid from a few people, I suppose people were thinking we'd done the lockdown before, and we're back here again, so might be time to try a different tactic.
Lo and behold the politicians in the Dail started talking about zero covid too.
I think you will find they were reflecting the feedback they were getting from constituents, or had at least verified that their supporters thought it was a good idea.

So thinking that 'politics' is continuing to impose overarching power on 'us' is not accurate, at least if you consider 'us' to be the majority of people in the country.

I can see that if, when you say 'us', you mean the relatively small number of people who think covid is a hoax, then yes, it can look like power is being imposed on you!
I don't know what we can do in that case, as in a democracy the opinion of the majority will be reflected in how things happen.
When we don't agree with the direction things take, and I don't always agree, you can voice your disagreement but ultimately you just have to roll with it.
You will probably find that you will get more support for your viewpoint if you argue with demonstrable facts, and minimise spin, and other 'theories' that are not provable.

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

I'll ask again: where has the flu gone?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9206071/amp/Flu-wiped-lowest-level-130-YEARS-seasonal-virus-plummets-95.html?__twitter_impression=true

Apparently "it's been explained to me already" though I can't find any such posts...

Perhaps read the article you posted?

Professor Martin Marshall, chairman of the Royal College of GPs, told The Sunday Times: 'It makes sense when you consider the lockdown restrictions, social distancing measures, and increased focus on maintaining good hygiene practices we are seeing at the moment — which will work to stop the spread of contagious illnesses such as colds and flu, as well as Covid-19.'

Prof Marshall added that there had also been an increased uptake of the flu jab this year with more than 80 per cent of the over-65s coming forward for the jab, according to the Sunday Times.

Another factor which could have contributed to the low flu numbers is the restriction on international travel which experts say has 'disrupted the global circulation of influenza'.