All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

xhomelezz

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well, our case fatality rate is invented...and used to suit an agenda.

Invented... seriously? Invented to achieve what?

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't invent a case fatality rate, you calculate it.

When you haven't a clue how many people have actually been infected then you use a model to suit whatever agenda you wish it to serve.

We haven't a clue how many people have been infected in this country, so we haven't a clue what our case fatality rate it. That rate is used to project potential loss of life.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

When you haven't a clue how many people have actually been infected then you use a model to suit whatever agenda you wish it to serve.

We haven't a clue how many people have been infected in this country, so we haven't a clue what our case fatality rate it. That rate is used to project potential loss of life.

Case fatality rate is literally based on just confirmed infections. Infection fatality rate is based on a best estimate of total infections. They are two different things.

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

....

This disease has an abyssmally low death rate.

...

Go the this US CDC web site
It shows the number of people who die every week in the US, from all causes, and goes back 4 years.
https://public.tableau.com/profile/dataviz8737#!/vizhome/COVID_excess_mort_withcauses_01272021/WeeklyExcessDeaths

The excess deaths, over the normal expected, are assumed to be due to the covid virus (though you might not agree!)

If that's what you call an abysmally low death rate then you must not care how many people in the community die? (as long as it's not you, I suppose)

Thankfully we don't have as high an excess death rate
(but of course our politicians weren't telling us it was all a hoax)!

PintOfView

Silentcorner wrote: »

When you haven't a clue how many people have actually been infected then you use a model to suit whatever agenda you wish it to serve.

We haven't a clue how many people have been infected in this country, so we haven't a clue what our case fatality rate it. That rate is used to project potential loss of life.

I don't have the figures that show how many undetected cases there are, which would influence the exact mortality rate, etc.
If you have figures please share.

However the excess death rate doesn't depend on classifying into covid deaths, vs no-covid deaths. If a lot more people die than would be expected it's fair to assume the excess are dying from covid.

Last April we had 3,500 deaths, vs 2,500 deaths on average in April in the previous three years.
That should be sufficient to show that what we're dealing with?

ShatterAlan

PintOfView wrote: »

I don't have the figures that show how many undetected cases there are, which would influence the exact mortality rate, etc.
If you have figures please share.

However the excess death rate doesn't depend on classifying into covid deaths, vs no-covid deaths. If a lot more people die than would be expected it's fair to assume the excess are dying from covid.

Last April we had 3,500 deaths, vs 2,500 deaths on average in April in the previous three years.
That should be sufficient to show that what we're dealing with?

And what about May, June, July, August.......up to December?

ShatterAlan

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I've never taken a flu shot nor do I know anybody who has. The body can fight this disease like any other. Now I'm sure you'll come out swinging saying "but, but, Covid is different" as if you're some kind of expert in contagious diseases.

We don’t have to be experts. The science and data show it’s more infectious and dangerous. Particularly for the elderly.

I would imagine the flu is just as infectious as covid is purported to be yet masks and distancing and lockdowns are never introduced during "flu season" when there's a "dose going round".

It’s much more infectious.

This disease has an abyssmally low death rate.

Strange wording and incorrect.

In comparison how many people die from tuberculosis each year? Well over a million. And influenza? How about diarrhael diseases like dysentry?

With strict lockdowns Covid has killed more than a million.

One might well say well the only people getting those diseases are pissheads who live underground in subway stations or brown folk in Bangladesh. Maybe.....but these too are global numbers and they don't warrant lockdowns and curfews.

It’s up to different countries to enforce different rules to stop whatever endemic disease exists.

ShatterAlan

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And what about May, June, July, August.......up to December?

You mean after we locked down? Deaths fell. That’s a justification for the lockdown. Then summer reduced the incidence. Then as winter approached the numbers rose exponentially.

The surge post Christmas should have put to death any ideas that lockdowns don’t work. Without the subsequent lockdowns we would be looking at millions infected now.

King Mob

Deleted User wrote: »

With strict lockdowns Covid has killed more than a million.
.

It's over 2.2 million now as of current counts.

patnor1011

This conspiracy theory is the best one so far...

The Largest Experiment on Humans Ever Seen.

Which is the more reasonable approach a society might take in the outbreak of epidemic:
-To quarantine the sick, and take reasonable precautions to stop those who are identified as vulnerable from contracting the illness.
or
-To attempt to “control the virus” by preventing millions of healthy people from having contact with other healthy people.

To any society prior to 2020, it would have been obvious that the first approach is not only logical and proportionate, but the one least likely to have other unintended and highly destructive consequences. However, to my continued astonishment, many in our society not only believe that the answer is the second, but they somehow believe it to be based on established science.

rest of the article - conspiracy theory:
http://www.theblogmire.com/the-largest-experiment-on-humans-ever-seen/

EyesClosed

So this thread has moved from all covid measures are permanent... To why are there any covid measures in place at all??

Is this cause nobody can say that all measures put in place will be permanent so the goal posts had to be moved?

Can someone tell me what restrictions will be in place forever after covid?

runawaybishop

patnor1011 wrote: »

This conspiracy theory is the best one so far...

The Largest Experiment on Humans Ever Seen.

Which is the more reasonable approach a society might take in the outbreak of epidemic:
-To quarantine the sick, and take reasonable precautions to stop those who are identified as vulnerable from contracting the illness.
or
-To attempt to “control the virus” by preventing millions of healthy people from having contact with other healthy people.

To any society prior to 2020, it would have been obvious that the first approach is not only logical and proportionate, but the one least likely to have other unintended and highly destructive consequences. However, to my continued astonishment, many in our society not only believe that the answer is the second, but they somehow believe it to be based on established science.

rest of the article - conspiracy theory:
http://www.theblogmire.com/the-largest-experiment-on-humans-ever-seen/

You mean cocooning. The UK tried it. Turns out it was terrible. We don't need to speculate about it, we have seen what happens.

Dohnjoe

EyesClosed wrote: »

So this thread has moved from all covid measures are permanent... To why are there any covid measures in place at all??

Always been that way. Easier and more comforting for some individuals to believe this is all some contrived "plan" rather than the whole thing is an out of control pandemic. Obviously they can't detail this "plan" because it doesn't exist, so they resort to flat out denial in order to cast doubt on the "narrative".

PintOfView

runawaybishop wrote: »

You mean cocooning. The UK tried it. Turns out it was terrible. We don't need to speculate about it, we have seen what happens.

It does seem that whatever the UK is/was doing wasn't very successful.
See this graph from John's Hopkins Univ in the US
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

In terns of case fatality rate UK are near the top,
but when you click into the fatalities per 100,000 the UK is on top!!
with the USA in 4th place, and we're well down the field

UK: 160 dead / 100k of population
USA: 135 dead / 100k of population
IRL: 68 dead / 100k of population

PintOfView

patnor1011 wrote: »

This conspiracy theory is the best one so far...

The Largest Experiment on Humans Ever Seen.

And who do you think is conducting this experiment?

and what is the purpose, what is it meant to show, or to achieve?

sabat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Always been that way. Easier and more comforting for some individuals to believe this is all some contrived "plan" rather than the whole thing is an out of control pandemic. Obviously they can't detail this "plan" because it doesn't exist, so they resort to flat out denial in order to cast doubt on the "narrative".

I was all on board at the beginning of this because I had no reason not to take it at face value. When May rolled around it was obviously over but I was still of the opinion that they were just being over-cautious and that it would be over soon. When in August they issued the mandatory mask orders for no apparent reason at around the same time every other country did it became obvious that a plan is being operated regardless of reality.

sydthebeat

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And what about May, June, July, August.......up to December?

thats just a silly argument....

the further you stretch any statistic the more "mean" it becomes...

just because there were some old people who died in april who would most likely have died before the end of the year, is no reason not to protect those people, and the wider generational population, in April.

Plus, this is not all about deaths.

in April we had no idea of the long term effects of catching this disease, and as of today we still have nowhere near a full picture of the lasting effects on all the population.

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

When in August they issued the mandatory mask orders for no apparent reason at around the same time every other country did it became obvious that a plan is being operated regardless of reality.

Ok. If it's obvious, what's the plan?
Who's plan is it?
Why is it being operated?

Have you given up on your false claims that covid is really just the misdiagnosed flu?

PintOfView

sabat wrote: »

I was all on board at the beginning of this because I had no reason not to take it at face value. When May rolled around it was obviously over but I was still of the opinion that they were just being over-cautious and that it would be over soon. When in August they issued the mandatory mask orders for no apparent reason at around the same time every other country did it became obvious that a plan is being operated regardless of reality.

But there was a reason for the masks!

They said that there was evidence that masks did slow transmission enough to justify asking people to wear them.
I haven't seen the evidence, but it does make sense to me!

Do you think that masks have no value in stopping what someone exhales reaching a point where someone else can inhale it?

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

I was all on board at the beginning of this because I had no reason not to take it at face value. When May rolled around it was obviously over but I was still of the opinion that they were just being over-cautious and that it would be over soon.

In May it wasn't over. Cases had just dropped sharply.

When in August they issued the mandatory mask orders for no apparent reason at around the same time every other country did it became obvious that a plan is being operated regardless of reality.

Infections increased again, therefore they had to increase measures. This happened across many countries in the world.

Considering this has been on the news and talked about 24/7 it's pretty shocking you don't know about it. What explanation do you have for not being aware of it? I would genuinely like to know

Dohnjoe

The virus isn't political, it's simply something that wants to spread from one host to another, via airborne (droplets) or touch (passing from host to our hands then to our mouths/eyes). Introducing measures to drastically reduce our contact with other human beings reduces the spread of that virus. These measures include e.g. masks, social distancing, washing hands. Any one of these isn't a "silver bullet", they work (in conjunction) with other measures to reduce the spread of the virus keyword: reduce. Further tougher measures include shutting of places where the virus spreads more easily, e.g. bars, restaurants, airline flights, etc, or getting employees to work from home where possible further reduces the spread of virus.

Obviously certain measures like closing bars or reducing flights has an economic effect, but as mentioned many times, the government can borrow money, it can't however replace dead people. People dying unnecessarily from this new disease aren't the biggest concern, it's the fact that an infected population can overwhelm the health services meaning that people get turned away from hospitals, we become unable to treat people dying of the disease, unable to treat people with other diseases, life-threatening injuries and situations.

It's staggering this has to be written out in plain English so many times in this thread, but it's clear that after 10 months that individuals still don't understand it.

sabat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

People dying unnecessarily from this new disease aren't the biggest concern, it's the fact that an infected population can overwhelm the health services meaning that people get turned away from hospitals, we become unable to treat people dying of the disease, unable to treat people with other diseases, life-threatening injuries and situations.

In 2 or 3 years we'll see a spike in cancer and other deaths because this exact thing is happening right now.

Despite all the money spent, very little has been done to upgrade health services. eg ICU capacity etc

Last summer there was 3 domestic multiple murder/suicides in the space of a week. This is unheard of in Ireland.

There was an "unprecedented spike" in homeless deaths last year and the tally is rising weekly.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0918/1166116-homeless-deaths/#:~:text=There%20has%20been%20an%20%22unprecedented,in%20the%20capital%20in%202020.

The economic devastation on the way inevitably leads to an increase in the death rate.

Our findings suggest that a one percent decrease in GDP would lead to an increase of 0.5 percent of the mortality rates.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25790017?seq=1

The total collapse of tourism in the global south where there are few if any social supports is going to have horrifying consequences. I normally head off somewhere warm this time of year and drop a couple of grand straight into the economy-mainly in small businesses. That's just 1 person bringing in about enough money to feed a family for a year. That has evaporated.

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

In 2 or 3 years we'll see a spike in cancer and other deaths because this exact thing is happening right now.

Why?

Despite all the money spent, very little has been done to upgrade health services. eg ICU capacity etc

It takes time to train new staff, they can't be conjured overnight.

There was an "unprecedented spike" in homeless deaths last year and the tally is rising weekly.

There will be a disaster on a far larger scale if hospitals are full.

The total collapse of tourism in the global south where there are few if any social supports is going to have horrifying consequences. I normally head off somewhere warm this time of year and drop a couple of grand straight into the economy-mainly in small businesses. That's just 1 person bringing in about enough money to feed a family for a year. That has evaporated.

There will be a disaster on a far larger scale if hospitals are full.

sabat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Why?

It's hard to believe an adult could be unaware of the importance of treating cancer early.

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

It's hard to believe an adult could be unaware of the importance of treating cancer early.

If hospitals are full and the national health system overwhelmed it won't be possible to treat patients with cancer properly or give the appropriate level of pre-care and detection. Think.

sabat

So it's OK that these measures will kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a possibility that 80 somethings with other illnesses might die if they don't get treated. Like I said: there's a plan being operated and you're acting as a cheerleader for it. No matter what's actually happening you just repeat the government mantras.

EyesClosed

sabat wrote: »

So it's OK that these measures will kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a possibility that 80 somethings with other illnesses might die if they don't get treated. Like I said: there's a plan being operated and you're acting as a cheerleader for it. No matter what's actually happening you just repeat the government mantras.

If we open up everything and let the virus spread the hospitals will be overwhelmed... So people won't get any care including kids with cancer.

Also none of this has anything to do with the thread topic does it?

What's going to be permanent?

runawaybishop

sabat wrote: »

So it's OK that these measures will kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a possibility that 80 somethings with other illnesses might die if they don't get treated. Like I said: there's a plan being operated and you're acting as a cheerleader for it. No matter what's actually happening you just repeat the government mantras.

No it's not ok. That's why we are in lockdown. Maybe if we had less covid denying morons about we would be out of this sooner.

This isn't a government mantra, it's basic common sense, something you are clearly lacking in.

Fighting Tao

sabat wrote: »

So it's OK that these measures will kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a possibility that 80 somethings with other illnesses might die if they don't get treated. Like I said: there's a plan being operated and you're acting as a cheerleader for it. No matter what's actually happening you just repeat the government mantras.

All that bold text and you are placing “might”, “will”, etc in the wrong place. Also you show how nasty of an individual you are by wishing a death penalty on older people.

This below is more accurate and leaves out your weird ramblings at the end:

So it's OK that these measures MIGHT BUT DEFINITELY NOT A CERTAINTY kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a HIGH POSSIBILITY that 80 somethings with other illnesses WILL die WHEN they don't get treated.

So why didn’t you take em up on my offer of covid of the virus is so insignificant?

sabat

runawaybishop wrote: »

No it's not ok. That's why we are in lockdown. Maybe if we had less covid denying morons about we would be out of this sooner.

This isn't a government mantra, it's basic common sense, something you are clearly lacking in.

The lockdowns are the measures. They are literally killing healthy people. That is a fact. I've listed out some of the ways this is happening above. That anyone who dissents from the programme is called stupid or insane is part of the tactics being deployed. When's the last time you were in the city centre? It's rapidly turning into the third world. There is no rational reason for this to continue.