All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Fighting Tao

sabat wrote: »

The lockdowns are the measures. They are literally killing healthy people. That is a fact. I've listed out some of the ways this is happening above. That anyone who dissents from the programme is called stupid or insane is part of the tactics being deployed. When's the last time you were in the city centre? It's rapidly turning into the third world. There is no rational reason for this to continue.

Are you saying that people aren’t getting cancer treatment at the moment?

runawaybishop

sabat wrote: »

The lockdowns are the measures. They are literally killing healthy people. That is a fact. I've listed out some of the ways this is happening above. That anyone who dissents from the programme is called stupid or insane is part of the tactics being deployed. When's the last time you were in the city centre? It's rapidly turning into the third world. There is no rational reason for this to continue.

You are wrong. Not worth saying more tbh, you don't seem to understand much.

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

So it's OK that these measures will kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a possibility that 80 somethings with other illnesses might die if they don't get treated. Like I said: there's a plan being operated and you're acting as a cheerleader for it. No matter what's actually happening you just repeat the government mantras.

People of all ages will be at risk if hospitals and their staff are stretched beyond their limits and capacity.

What plan are you referring to?

sabat

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Are you saying that people aren’t getting cancer treatment at the moment?

yes.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cancer-covid-19-5088912-May2020/

sabat

runawaybishop wrote: »

You are wrong. Not worth saying more tbh, you don't seem to understand much.

What part of my post of 17.10 is wrong?

Fighting Tao

sabat wrote: »

yes.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cancer-covid-19-5088912-May2020/

May 2nd 2020. The article doesn’t say that cancer is not being treated. Did you read it? Anything more recent?

Also, thanks again for ignoring my question to you. It identifies that you are just here to wind people up. If you were true to your convictions you wouldn’t avoid covid.

runawaybishop

sabat wrote: »

What part of my post of 17.10 is wrong?

You lack a basic understanding, frankly. You think lockdown is causing these deaths. Lockdown is a symptom, not a root cause.

What's your solution. Do you have one, or are you a serial complainer?

EyesClosed

sabat wrote: »

The lockdowns are the measures. They are literally killing healthy people. That is a fact. I've listed out some of the ways this is happening above. That anyone who dissents from the programme is called stupid or insane is part of the tactics being deployed. When's the last time you were in the city centre? It's rapidly turning into the third world. There is no rational reason for this to continue.

What has this got to do with anything being permanent? Why do you keep avoiding the question?

PintOfView

sabat wrote: »

So it's OK that these measures will kill otherwise healthy children and young people and cause millions of others permanent psychological damage because there's a possibility that 80 somethings with other illnesses might die if they don't get treated. Like I said: there's a plan being operated and you're acting as a cheerleader for it. No matter what's actually happening you just repeat the government mantras.

It's not ok for anyone to die, or be adversely affected, but our health authorities obviously believe it's the lesser of two evils.

Look at Sweden, they tried to do without a formal lockdown, although a lot of Swedes still restricted themselves.
However in November they had to admit their initial strategy wasn't going to cut it, and they now have similar restrictions to the rest of Europe.

Why did they do that?
You may believe that the people behind the 'plan' got to them, and forced them to do it!
I believe they simply found, from experience, that the health cost of not doing it was too high!

Compared to their immediate neighbours, their covid deaths to date are:
Sweden: 114 dead / 100,000 of population
Denmark: 37 dead / 100,000
Finland: 12 dead / 100,000
Norway: 10 dead / 100,000

and for comparison
Ireland: 68 dead / 100,000

The 'measures', as you describe them (social distancing, mask wearing, pubs closed, work from home, etc) are not directly killing people.
Those measures may be causing severe hardship for a lot of people, and it's fair to assume suicides may increase, etc.
Other deaths may result from the hospitals not having the capacity to treat certain medical conditions, or perform routine screening, etc.

So it is a trade off.
Do nothing and lots of people will die, not may, not possibly, will, and not just 80 year olds.
Lots of people across a wide range of ages will need oxygen in hospital to keep them alive (or they will die)
If hospitals get overwhelmed, once all the ambulances in car parks are full, people will have to be turned away to die at home.
Do you remember Italy last year?

So please explain again how your plan of doing nothing is going to be better for everyone than what we're doing now?


Re cheer leading for the government mantra, personally I'm not repeating anyone's mantra.
I'm forming my own opinion from the information I get online, and on RTE, BBC, etc.
If you are getting your information from alternative sources, where people repeat the covid hoax theories unchallenged, then it is not surprising you will have a different opinion.

sabat

Fighting Tao wrote: »

All that bold text and you are placing “might”, “will”, etc in the wrong place. Also you show how nasty of an individual you are by wishing a death penalty on older people.

This below is more accurate and leaves out your weird ramblings at the end:



So why didn’t you take em up on my offer of covid of the virus is so insignificant?

Oh shut up with that moronic "come around to a stranger on the internet's gaff to get a disease" point. It's retarded. You seem remarkably busy posting for someone with a deadly disease too.

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

That anyone who dissents from the programme is called stupid or insane is part of the tactics being deployed.

What programme? what are you talking about?

Is this related to your personal beliefs about a massive global conspiracy?

Dohnjoe

Acts all concerned about homeless deaths, doesn't give a damn about "80 yr olds" dying from Covid. The sheer ignorance on display here is something else.

Professor Moriarty

sabat wrote: »

Oh shut up with that moronic "come around to a stranger on the internet's gaff to get a disease" point. It's retarded. You seem remarkably busy posting for someone with a deadly disease too.

Enough said.

brianhere

Dohnjoe
"...but as mentioned many times, the government can borrow money, it can't however replace dead people."

Indeed it has been explained here many multiple times how the government 'can always borrow more money' but I was wondering if any of you would like to expand on that? and explain how it can always borrow more money no matter what?

Its been the experience of individuals, of companies and indeed of countries, that if they keep borrowing money for current expenditure they will rapidly end up to a point where they can no longer borrow any more money, and will then proceed to starve, go bankrupt or become destitute. The recent Irish budget deficit is now 19 billion euro, on a national debt pile of about 200 billion euro, these are completely unprecedented and absolutely extraordinary figures for a country of this size and population.

Meanwhile the measures the government are taking are completely destroying the Irish economy. I was reading where in one Irish county about 40% of the working population are on government handouts now. Meanwhile as regards the non working age population, say in regard to children you are talking about children's allowances and single mothers allowances, and in regard to the older population you are to take into account pensions, plus of course those who are working now for the state, or indirectly working for state contracts etc, you could easily end up with over 80% of the population directly dependent on the state? And the state is now just borrowing all that money to pay all this, so what is going to happen when we hit the inevitable sovereign debt crisis, when we can no longer borrow more?

Then we will know what real poverty is, and the inevitable increase in the death rate that comes from that.

Dohnjoe

brianhere wrote: »

Dohnjoe
"...but as mentioned many times, the government can borrow money, it can't however replace dead people."

Indeed it has been explained here many multiple times how the government 'can always borrow more money' but I was wondering if any of you would like to expand on that? and explain how it can always borrow more money no matter what?

Sure. The bolded part you added is not valid, its not possible to borrow infinite money indefinitely. This pandemic is not expected to be indefinite due to the development of effective vaccines, which are currently being rolled out (however this will take months before significant portions of populations are vaccinated)

Can we keep doing this forever? no. Can we keep doing this for a few more months? yes. Will it damage our economies? yes but at the moment we are trading that economic damage against the risk of people dying on hospital steps.

Fighting Tao

sabat wrote: »

Oh shut up with that moronic "come around to a stranger on the internet's gaff to get a disease" point. It's retarded. You seem remarkably busy posting for someone with a deadly disease too.

I’d have met you in a public place. You are just here as a wind up. I don’t even think you believe your own guff.

If you understood the disease that you claim to know more than everyone else and all the secrets around it, then you would know how I am fit to post on Boards. There was a day or two that I wasn’t even fit to pick up my phone.

And please have manners. Telling people to shut up is childish and used when you can’t stand by what you say. School yard stuff.

patnor1011

runawaybishop wrote: »

You mean cocooning. The UK tried it. Turns out it was terrible. We don't need to speculate about it, we have seen what happens.

How did you come to this conclusion because if you do have some crystal ball which tells you what I mean it clearly isn't working?
In order to understand this conspiracy theory, one needs to read the article not just skin through.

patnor1011

PintOfView wrote: »

And who do you think is conducting this experiment?

and what is the purpose, what is it meant to show, or to achieve?

Ask the author of that article he may have some ideas.

sabat

brianhere wrote: »

Dohnjoe
"...but as mentioned many times, the government can borrow money, it can't however replace dead people."

Indeed it has been explained here many multiple times how the government 'can always borrow more money' but I was wondering if any of you would like to expand on that? and explain how it can always borrow more money no matter what?

Its been the experience of individuals, of companies and indeed of countries, that if they keep borrowing money for current expenditure they will rapidly end up to a point where they can no longer borrow any more money, and will then proceed to starve, go bankrupt or become destitute. The recent Irish budget deficit is now 19 billion euro, on a national debt pile of about 200 billion euro, these are completely unprecedented and absolutely extraordinary figures for a country of this size and population.

Meanwhile the measures the government are taking are completely destroying the Irish economy. I was reading where in one Irish county about 40% of the working population are on government handouts now. Meanwhile as regards the non working age population, say in regard to children you are talking about children's allowances and single mothers allowances, and in regard to the older population you are to take into account pensions, plus of course those who are working now for the state, or indirectly working for state contracts etc, you could easily end up with over 80% of the population directly dependent on the state? And the state is now just borrowing all that money to pay all this, so what is going to happen when we hit the inevitable sovereign debt crisis, when we can no longer borrow more?

Then we will know what real poverty is, and the inevitable increase in the death rate that comes from that.

Throw in this statistic about how our tax revenues have become unhealthily reliant on foreign companies and the as of yet unknown Brexit fallout and it's actually frightening how bad things could get. In two years time with just a couple of unpredictable events occurring we could become like Moldova or Albania overnight. That's not an exaggeration.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-31007467.html

theguzman

sabat wrote: »

Throw in this statistic about how our tax revenues have become unhealthily reliant on foreign companies and the as of yet unknown Brexit fallout and it's actually frightening how bad things could get. In two years time with just a couple of unpredictable events occurring we could become like Moldova or Albania overnight. That's not an exaggeration.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-31007467.html

You speak as if this was a bad thing, with what I have witnessed in Ireland down through the years I hope things get far worse and worse, make people suffer, maybe then they would cop the hell and stop voting for those that are damaging them always and make people wake up and cop on with lavish unsustainable lifestyles also. What we have seen in the past will pale in comparison to what is coming and soon.

brianhere

Absolutely, it really just like that. A supposed wealthy society that is only based on its government borrowing vast sums of money every year, cannot last. If people's livelihoods are being destroyed left right and centre then our ability to live will be destroyed alongwith that, borrowing money will not save us.

harrylittle

brianhere wrote: »

Absolutely, it really just like that. A supposed wealthy society that is only based on its government borrowing vast sums of money every year, cannot last. If people's livelihoods are being destroyed left right and centre then our ability to live will be destroyed alongwith that, borrowing money will not save us.

Very true ... only a matter of time before the whole thing collapses

King Mob

So people are also just giving up on the idea that the covid measures are permanent?

A lot of ideas and claims sure do get abandoned on this thread...

ShatterAlan

PintOfView wrote: »

(1)



(2)



(3)


Firstly, you're assuming it's a 'he'!

The first quote above would only be relevant to this discussion if the daily quoted number of people in hospital with covid included significant numbers (say 10% to 20%) of patients who were in maternity wards, who had tested positive for covid, but with no covid symptoms.

Having said that there may be an argument that even those people should be counted due to possible risks to the baby, etc.,
and in any case they are in hospital,
and they do have covid,
and so do require to be treated under a covid regime.

Regardless, in the scheme of things it is nit picking, and doesn't prove a conspiracy!

I'll chime in for myself. I'm so glad that you have brought to the fore my glib and reckless assumption that SafeSurfer was of a specific gender. I do feel, however, that he/she/they/it might best clarify this instead of a stranger such as you.


But again you must be applauded for putting me in my place.

sabat

King Mob wrote: »

So people are also just giving up on the idea that the covid measures are permanent?

A lot of ideas and claims sure do get abandoned on this thread...

The idea that this is normal needs to be consistently refuted from every angle. Borrowing money to anaesthetise the "boiling frogs" is probably the most important part of the process.

GT89

Remember 6ft apart or 6ft under. That has to be the dumbest catchphrase of the last 10 months. The amount of times randomers have come within 6ft of me and yet believe it or not I am still alive and physically healthy if not mentally.

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

The idea that this is normal needs to be consistently refuted from every angle. .

Why?
Which measures are going to be permanent exactly?

Why are you guys constantly dodging this question?

If you don't know, why not just admit it? The constant dodging is making you look far worse.

patnor1011

King Mob wrote: »

Why?
Which measures are going to be permanent exactly?

Why are you guys constantly dodging this question?

If you don't know, why not just admit it? The constant dodging is making you look far worse.

Why, why, why?
Recent history shows clearly that a lot of measures taken in a time of "crisis" stay permanent. Like what happened with travel based on an incident in the USA.

Why do you think some of the restrictions will not stay permanent?
We already hear that vaccines may need to be repeated yearly and we already are being scared with "new strains" emerging.

King Mob

patnor1011 wrote: »

Why, why, why?
Recent history shows clearly that a lot of measures taken in a time of "crisis" stay permanent. Like what happened with travel based on an incident in the USA.

Why do you think some of the restrictions will not stay permanent?

Because you guys don't seem to be able to explain which measures will be permanent and wwhy they would be permanent.

Which ones specifically do you think will be permanent?

patnor1011 wrote: »

We already hear that vaccines may need to be repeated yearly and we already are being scared with "new strains" emerging.

Ok.
But you understand that this is how a lot of vaccines work, right?
Are you saying that new strains don't or can't emerge?

How does this measure being permanent benefit anyone?

Also I'm a bit perplexed why you are so upset with people asking you to explain your beliefs...
What a bizarre position to hold...

Dohnjoe

patnor1011 wrote: »

Why, why, why?
Recent history shows clearly that a lot of measures taken in a time of "crisis" stay permanent. Like what happened with travel based on an incident in the USA.

What incident?

Why do you think some of the restrictions will not stay permanent?
.

Because they are measures used to tackle a virus. Many were already lifted in the summer.