All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Dohnjoe

brianhere wrote: »

Absolutely, it really just like that. A supposed wealthy society that is only based on its government borrowing vast sums of money every year, cannot last. If people's livelihoods are being destroyed left right and centre then our ability to live will be destroyed alongwith that, borrowing money will not save us.

You believe this pandemic is a ruse to usher in a massive secret plan to bring back Communism everywhere

Sabat believes there's a gigantic worldwide conspiracy by the elites to take over and control everyone

Several others believe this is all part of a biblical prophecy

By some absolutely remarkable coincidence you all line up to baselessly attack the facts surrounding this pandemic. All motivated by different conspiracies you can't detail.

ShatterAlan

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats just a silly argument....

the further you stretch any statistic the move "mean" it becomes...

just because there were some old people who died in april who would most likely have died before the end of the year, is no reason not to protect those people, and the wider generational population, in April.

Plus, this is not all about deaths.

in April we had no idea of the long term effects of catching this disease, and as of today we still have nowhere near a full picture of the lasting effects on all the population.

If this isn't about deaths then why bring up deaths and why focus in April deaths when deaths for the rest of the months in the year were negligible?

Fighting Tao

ShatterAlan wrote: »

If this isn't about deaths then why bring up deaths and why focus in April deaths when deaths for the rest of the months in the year were negligible?

Don’t be pretending to not understand yet again. You know why there are differences throughout the year for deaths. Measures put in place to prevent them! Lift the measures and deaths increase again. You know all this though.

Timberrrrrrrr

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Don’t be pretending to not understand yet again. You know why there are differences throughout the year for deaths. Measures put in place to prevent them! Lift the measurements and deaths increase again. You know all this though.

Ar this stage I'm wondering if its pretence?

King Mob

ShatterAlan wrote: »

If this isn't about deaths then why bring up deaths and why focus in April deaths when deaths for the rest of the months in the year were negligible?

A very easy way to settle this would be for you conspiracy theorists to point out to the accurate numbers and the reliable source you use to reach those numbers.

Couldn't possibly imagine why you guys can't do this and why you would keep ignoring it...

Timberrrrrrrr

King Mob wrote: »

A very easy way to settle this would be for you conspiracy theorists to point out to the accurate numbers and the reliable source you use to reach those numbers.

Couldn't possibly imagine why you guys can't do this and why you would keep ignoring it...

I'm still waiting for the conspiracy!!!

sabat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You believe this pandemic is a ruse to usher in a massive secret plan to bring back Communism everywhere

Sabat believes there's a gigantic worldwide conspiracy by the elites to take over and control everyone

Several others believe this is all part of a biblical prophecy.

Those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive-it depends on the background of the person interpreting events. Americans are observing the increase in state control over their lives and they perceive it as communism; a European sees the increase of big business's power and influence and notes the corporo-fascism.
While it's easiest of all to dismiss religious people's interpretation, there is a huge element of New Age/Luciferian woo to what's going on, particularly in organisations like the UN. It's worth at least having a browse through this book written in 1983, you might just see something that makes you sit up and think:

https://archive.org/details/HiddenDangersOfTheRainbow/page/n220/mode/1up
(Just skip the biblical stuff.)

You surely must agree that almost out of nowhere rainbow and unicorn symbolism has become ubiquitous over the last few years.

EyesClosed

sabat wrote: »

Those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive-it depends on the background of the person interpreting events. Americans are observing the increase in state control over their lives and they perceive it as communism; a European sees the increase of big business's power and influence and notes the corporo-fascism.
While it's easiest of all to dismiss religious people's interpretation, there is a huge element of New Age/Luciferian woo to what's going on, particularly in organisations like the UN. It's worth at least having a browse through this book written in 1983, you might just see something that makes you sit up and think:

https://archive.org/details/HiddenDangersOfTheRainbow/page/n220/mode/1up
(Just skip the biblical stuff.)

You surely must agree that almost out of nowhere rainbow and unicorn symbolism has become ubiquitous over the last few years.

I've lost track now of how many times I have asked you.
But... What is gonna be permanent?

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

Those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive-it depends on the background of the person interpreting events.

Yup

Translation: "Our fantasies conveniently co-exist with other contradictory fantasies so we can all validate each other in the face of logic/reason"

Can you address any of the multitude of questions put forward to you, what is this "plan" you keep referring to?

sabat

EyesClosed wrote: »

I've lost track now of how many times I have asked you.
But... What is gonna be permanent?

There's a small hint in the title of the thread.

EyesClosed

sabat wrote: »

There's a small hint in the title of the thread.

Right it says all covid measures will be permanent. Nobody has been able to give any examples of what will stay permanent and why.. This is what I'm asking you... Can you give me any?

Timberrrrrrrr

sabat wrote: »

There's a small hint in the title of the thread.

That's your most blatant dodge so far:rolleyes:

Name one specific measure that you think will remain permanent, just one and explain why you think it will remain permanent.

runawaybishop

sabat wrote: »

There's a small hint in the title of the thread.

Can you please send me, in writing, a letter to the effect that I am permanently banned from visiting my mother in law. Much appreciated!

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

There's a small hint in the title of the thread.

Ok. So you believe all of the covid measures are going to be permanent.

So why would someone want this?

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

There's a small hint in the title of the thread.

133 pages in and no explanation as to why measures will be permanent

Timberrrrrrrr

Dohnjoe wrote: »

133 pages in and no explanation as to why measures will be permanent

Not even all measures as stated in the title, they can't even name one that they feel will be permanent.

King Mob

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Not even all measures as stated in the title, they can't even name one that they feel will be permanent.

And like in the election thread, when the measure finally start being eased, none of them will even think about coping to the fact they were wrong.

At least they had the good sense to keep their claims vague and open so that it could be a long time before they have to face reality.

Though I imagine some will still say "Aha, we have to get a corona virus vaccine as well as a flu vaccine now! See we were completely right all along!"

Tea drinker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

133 pages in and no explanation as to why measures will be permanent

inertia maybe? The new normal... that conspiracy theory politicians keep muttering about on TV will see many measures remain. No clue what they are, they don't have an iota what they are doing themselves. You can guess what some will be around working from home. (won't be mandated but will be a new normal)
Even though the vaccine will result in massive reduction in infection, hospital rates the gov are saying don't plan any foreign travel up to June at least.


https://www.newstalk.com/news/luke-oneill-coronavirus-figures-will-plummet-when-top-four-priority-groups-are-vaccinated-1143656

“So, in the US, if you vaccinate 40% of the US population, you will see a four-fold decrease in new infections, an 85% decrease in hospital ICU admissions and an 87% decrease in the death rate.

“That is with 40% of the population being vaccinated. Then they said what if you only vaccinate 20%? And they found a 60% decrease in hospitalisations and a 64% decrease in deaths.
Government have no clue what is happening or going to happen

ShatterAlan

GT89 wrote: »

Remember 6ft apart or 6ft under. That has to be the dumbest catchphrase of the last 10 months. The amount of times randomers have come within 6ft of me and yet believe it or not I am still alive and physically healthy if not mentally.

That slogan was fcuking inane.

ShatterAlan

sabat wrote: »

In 2 or 3 years we'll see a spike in cancer and other deaths because this exact thing is happening right now.

Despite all the money spent, very little has been done to upgrade health services. eg ICU capacity etc

Last summer there was 3 domestic multiple murder/suicides in the space of a week. This is unheard of in Ireland.

There was an "unprecedented spike" in homeless deaths last year and the tally is rising weekly.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0918/1166116-homeless-deaths/#:~:text=There%20has%20been%20an%20%22unprecedented,in%20the%20capital%20in%202020.

The economic devastation on the way inevitably leads to an increase in the death rate.



https://www.jstor.org/stable/25790017?seq=1

The total collapse of tourism in the global south where there are few if any social supports is going to have horrifying consequences. I normally head off somewhere warm this time of year and drop a couple of grand straight into the economy-mainly in small businesses. That's just 1 person bringing in about enough money to feed a family for a year. That has evaporated.

The cheerleaders for government diktats are the same gang who would froth at the mouth about how child abusers should be strung up. Well since the lockdown there have been 16000 extra notifications of child abuse in The Netherlands.

The Nal

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Well since the lockdown there have been 16000 extra notifications of child abuse in The Netherlands.

Source?

Timberrrrrrrr

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The cheerleaders for government diktats are the same gang who would froth at the mouth about how child abusers should be strung up. Well since the lockdown there have been 16000 extra notifications of child abuse in The Netherlands.

One measure.....name just one measure that you think will be permanent and explain why.

ShatterAlan

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

One measure.....name just one measure that you think will be permanent and explain why.

I can't really say. I think that the current measures will eventually be eased but governments will remember how easy it was to completely control populations.



I think governments will legislate to order curfews and lockdowns whenever they want.


I think the 8pm alcohol sale cutoff in The Netherlands will remain in place after things "return to normal". Why? The Mayor of Amsterdam has long been campaigning to rid the city of it's liberal, live-and-let-live attitude and follow the Stockholm model where you can't buy alcohol after 7pm during the week, 3pm on Saturday and not at all on Sunday. I could be wrong but if and when I'm proved wrong I'll hold my hand up.

Timberrrrrrrr

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I can't really say. I think that the current measures will eventually be eased but governments will remember how easy it was to completely control populations.



I think governments will legislate to order curfews and lockdowns whenever they want.


I think the 8pm alcohol sale cutoff in The Netherlands will remain in place after things "return to normal". Why? The Mayor of Amsterdam has long been campaigning to rid the city of it's liberal, live-and-let-live attitude and follow the Stockholm model where you can't buy alcohol after 7pm during the week, 3pm on Saturday and not at all on Sunday. I could be wrong but if and when I'm proved wrong I'll hold my hand up.

And we finally get there, No measures that have been bought in will be "permanent" and its took this long for one of you to finally admit it.

We may not agree on much but fair play for admitting this.

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I can't really say. I think that the current measures will eventually be eased but governments will remember how easy it was to completely control populations.

I think governments will legislate to order curfews and lockdowns whenever they want.

But the government is us,
we elect people to serve in the government,
and we go along with stuff that makes sense,
and people kick up a fuss against what they don't like.
That's how democracy works.

There is no secret cabal behind the scenes pulling the strings, the government is held to account for everything they do on our behalf, and they can sometime have their feet held over the coals by the people (via the media, the opposition, etc).

Re "governments will legislate to order curfews and lockdowns whenever they want"
How long do you think a government would last if they tried to order curfews and lockdowns with no good reason?
Seriously, how long?
And why would a government even try something like that?

I'm sorry but your thinking doesn't make sense,
unless you have something else in your head that somehow makes that a plausible scenario!!

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

If this isn't about deaths then why bring up deaths and why focus in April deaths when deaths for the rest of the months in the year were negligible?

Why do you think the deaths in April were high, and then decreased back to normal levels by June/July?
hint: Lockdown for 3 months,
then after lockdown, continued social distancing, mask wearing in shops, and some limits on interaction,
till party season in Dec!

Why do you think that deaths in the US were so much worse than us,
and didn't go back down to normal levels for the rest of the year after April?
hint: inconsistent lockdowns, plus one political party that made a health issue into a political one, insisted that mask wearing, etc., wasn't necessary, and in so doing compromised efforts to contain the virus.

So there is a good explanation for why deaths from July to October were not be too different from normal in Ireland, the virus wasn't that widespread in the community for many months, and people observed sensible precautions.

PintOfView

sabat wrote: »

...
While it's easiest of all to dismiss religious people's interpretation, there is a huge element of New Age/Luciferian woo to what's going on, particularly in organisations like the UN. It's worth at least having a browse through this book written in 1983, you might just see something that makes you sit up and think:

https://archive.org/details/HiddenDangersOfTheRainbow/page/n220/mode/1up
(Just skip the biblical stuff.)

You surely must agree that almost out of nowhere rainbow and unicorn symbolism has become ubiquitous over the last few years.

Where is the New Age/Luciferian stuff going on? and how come I'm not aware of it?
I'd have thought I'd notice if some significant undercurrents were going on in society!

And how is this supposed to be connected to the UN?

I think it's possible to get a one sided, and possibly wrong, view of the world from what you read, and watch on youtube, and the web sites you get 'information' from.
I've seen some supposedly Irish web sites that promote alternative views like the ones you articulate. The sites I saw didn't have any counterpoint, and the 'information' went unchallenged, and as far as I could see there were many holes in the arguments and viewpoints put forward (extrapolating from single examples to generalisations that didn't follow, etc).

ShatterAlan

The Nal wrote: »

Source?

https://www.sociaalwerknederland.nl/thema/corona-actueel/nieuws/9606-kindermishandeling-neemt-ernstig-toe-tijdens-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR1wUEP7YDvooWIHRIbvRX7aqtR2Fb5Q-cLZoaeobdFo8sYlCyBMLuGuIQw


https://avs.nl/actueel/nieuws/toename-kindermishandeling-tijdens-eerste-lockdown/?fbclid=IwAR1b7eQdWW8TX9Eun3QbiSkDwZIq22DWlgwoXDwUc8XrQBsqqxESA8leZZ8


https://www.kinderopvangtotaal.nl/kindermishandeling-neemt-ernstig-toe-tijdens-lockdown/?fbclid=IwAR2Zc5R9J7oG-mTgWWbunmPX79j95TUoDHBzOqyB2M36-oXUO_6_LBUdqfs


https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/nieuws/2021/01/tijdens-lockdown-meer-slachtoffers-van-kindermishandeling?fbclid=IwAR0hjgQZBkPYEsVPXC6LxPspdaLd2HaeHHVoZz0ECnxSreTIvTPYBjMrLFk




Now if you don't speak Dutch, read it or write it then I can help. Alternatively you can break out a dictionary or cut and paste into a translator.

Let me know if you want more.

A friend is a child psychologist here in the University of Utrecht.

ShatterAlan

PintOfView wrote: »

Why do you think the deaths in April were high, and then decreased back to normal levels by June/July?
hint: Lockdown for 3 months,
then after lockdown, continued social distancing, mask wearing in shops, and some limits on interaction,
till party season in Dec!

Why do you think that deaths in the US were so much worse than us,
and didn't go back down to normal levels for the rest of the year after April?
hint: inconsistent lockdowns, plus one political party that made a health issue into a political one, insisted that mask wearing, etc., wasn't necessary, and in so doing compromised efforts to contain the virus.

So there is a good explanation for why deaths from July to October were not be too different from normal in Ireland, the virus wasn't that widespread in the community for many months, and people observed sensible precautions.

What, exactly the fcuk, are you talking about? Cases were high in April and then in MAY (not June or July....MAY) were back down and remained so for the rest of the year. Coming up to October/November you had predictions that there would be another spike or outbreak when winter came. An lo and behold there it was. Now you tell that "party season" in December was the cause of a winter spike. Who EXACTLY was having parties in December? What companies? What pubs were rammed to the rafters hosting 12 pub nonsense? What clubs were choc-a-block with Christmas revellers getting wasted and laid?


Everyone was out and about in June, July, August, September. Was that the cause of the spike in December? You just said that December "party season" caused this almost immediate rise in cases. Which is it now?

PintOfView

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What, exactly the fcuk, are you talking about? Cases were high in April and then in MAY (not June or July....MAY) were back down and remained so for the rest of the year. Coming up to October/November you had predictions that there would be another spike or outbreak when winter came. An lo and behold there it was. Now you tell that "party season" in December was the cause of a winter spike. Who EXACTLY was having parties in December? What companies? What pubs were rammed to the rafters hosting 12 pub nonsense? What clubs were choc-a-block with Christmas revellers getting wasted and laid?

Everyone was out and about in June, July, August, September. Was that the cause of the spike in December? You just said that December "party season" caused this almost immediate rise in cases. Which is it now?

If you read what I said I was talking about deaths, not cases.
March 2020 had a couple of hundred more deaths than average for March
April 2020 had about a thousand more deaths than average for April (3,500 vs 2,500 avg for Apr in prev 3 years)
May 2020 had a couple of hundred more deaths than avg for May
June, July, Aug, Sep were back to the average number of deaths you'd expect for those months.

My point was that the lockdown, starting in mid March, brought cases down over the following couple of months, and the number of deaths also came down.
April showed us what we could have been facing if we hadn't locked down.
It's pretty clear that the lockdown helped bring down cases, and excess deaths.

I don't know why cases went through the roof in December (my 'party time' remark was a bit presumptive)
However people didn't catch the virus from fresh air, they caught it from other people who had the virus already.
Where that transmission took place is not clear, and we can only speculate on the main sources.
Anecdotally some covid was spread from people visiting other houses, some parties did take place, perhaps shopping contributed, and other ways!

I was responding to your prev comment "why focus on April deaths when deaths for the rest of the months in the year were negligible?"
and trying to explain why deaths came down and stayed down for several months
(because people maintained sensible precautions from when we opened up in early summer)