All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

PintOfView

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

No masks?
https://www.businessinsider.com/americans-dont-need-masks-pence-says-as-demand-increases-2020-2?r=US&IR=T

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/preventing-coronavirus-facemask-60-minutes-2020-03-08/

One Mask
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/27/politics/fauci-coronavirus-wear-masks-cnntv/index.html

Two Masks?
https://www.thesun.ie/news/6507303/fauci-says-you-may-have-to-wear-two-masks/


Three Masks?

Remember Fauci, the head doctor in the US, said no masks first, then wear a mask, now he is saying wear two.....Will he say three in a few months?

Also, the National Standard Authority of Ireland has stated most masks we use do not comply with regulations
https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40097717.html


So....you were saying

I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make?

From your post & links

No masks / your cbsnews.com link
"In March, Fauci told 60 Minutes that masks should largely be reserved for healthcare providers. In April, the recommendations were broadened to include simple masks for the general public."

One mask / your CNN link (27 May 2020)
"Fauci said he believes that while wearing a mask is not "100% effective," it is a valuable safeguard and shows 'respect for another person.' "

Two masks / your thesun.ie link (31 Oct 2020)
"Fauci said he has increasingly seen more people during the pandemic adopt a two-mask approach, himself included.
'You can make a general common sense extrapolation,' he said.
'If one mask serves as a physical barrier, if you put two on - if you're looking for enhancing the physical barrier - it makes common sense that it certainly can't hurt and might help.' "

Masks not complying with standards / from your echolive.ie link
"Ms O'Ferrall said a lot of people purchase designer masks that celebrities have worn which 'don’t comply with any specifications'.
She said that home-made face masks were also an issue.
However, she also pointed out international public health advice which states that 'any face mask is better than no face mask'."

I see nothing inconsistent in any of that?
Mask wearing was discouraged last March in many countries, incl Ireland, and likely for the same reason, that masks were in scarce supply and if there was a run on them the hospitals wouldn't have enough. When supply became available then people were encouraged to wear them.

Do you know the reason why people are asked to wear masks?

A common misconception is that they protect the wearer. While they may offer minimal protection the main reason is that masks cut down infected people transmitting the virus to others.

For example, try breathing on a cold window without a mask, and then with a mask!
That condensation on the window when you tried it without a mask can contain virus.

Next frosty night go outside to a lit area with someone. Get them to breath out, and then to cough slightly. See how far the cough goes?
Then get them to put on a mask and see the difference.

One way that respiratory viruses like colds, the flu and covid pass from one person to another is through droplets suspended in the air that an infected person exhales. The mask simply impedes the exhaled breath and greatly reduces the droplets reaching other people around you.

A mask that protects the wearer from other people's droplets needs to be of a much higher standard.

Does that not make sense?
Can you clearly explain the point you were making?

PintOfView

Dublinandy3 wrote: »

Valves masks, not all masks.

Here is an actual study showing masks help against covid, not just a doctor asking us to trust their word


https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf

If you don’t want to read it this is part of the findings

The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of non-medical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures could successfully reduce effective-R to below 1.0, thereby stopping community spread. Economic analysis suggests that the impact of mask wearing could be thousands of US dollars saved per person per mask (93).

Thanks, good article, with pretty clear conclusions

Here is a link I followed to a 'Peer reviewed' version of that same article
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

PintOfView

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

The doctors I listen to don't recommend wearing masks. In fact they say they are health risks.

Doctor Sucharit Bhakdi from the University of Mainz. One of the most cited specialists in Europe

Dr. Russell Blaylock, MD

Klaus Reinhardt, the president of the German Medical Association

There's loads more. You wouldn't know them....they never get a mention on RTE

RTE would never allow a debate on this between some of the experts I have mentioned and some of the experts that we see on the news daily.

We never had a debate. We never will. It could wake up some of the plebs into questioning things and we couldn't have that

Re the doctors you cited, they are not without controversy, see ...

https://www.poynter.org/?ifcn_misinformation=dr-sucharit-bhakdis-multiple-coronavirus-allegations
http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-top-german-doctor-in-hot-water-over-mask-comments/a-55372596

I'm not qualified to say who's right and who's wrong, but how do you explain that the vast majority of people who are experts in their fields disagree with these people?
Who is more likely to be right?
Why do you believe these doctors are right, and all the other doctors are wrong?

I regurgitate the news

PintOfView wrote: »

Re the doctors you cited, they are not without controversy, see ...

https://www.poynter.org/?ifcn_misinformation=dr-sucharit-bhakdis-multiple-coronavirus-allegations
http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-top-german-doctor-in-hot-water-over-mask-comments/a-55372596

I'm not qualified to say who's right and who's wrong, but how do you explain that the vast majority of people who are experts in their fields disagree with these people?
Who is more likely to be right?
Why do you believe these doctors are right, and all the other doctors are wrong?

Why do I believe these doctors are right? Well, Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi is one of the most cited in Europe and nobody had a problem calling him an expert until he questioned the measures taken early on in this lockdown.

Why would he do something that could potentially destroy his reputation?

On the other hand....the experts that have been recommended to me

University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and Johns Hopkins University....and added to that the WHO....What have they got in common. They are heavily funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

So, why would they say what they say? They are good people who just happen to get a lot of money from someone who's making a lot of money from vaccinating everyone on the planet.

King Mob

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Why do I believe these doctors are right? Well, Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi is one of the most cited in Europe and nobody had a problem calling him an expert until he questioned the measures taken early on in this lockdown.

Why would he do something that could potentially destroy his reputation?

On the other hand....the experts that have been recommended to me

University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and Johns Hopkins University....and added to that the WHO....What have they got in common. They are heavily funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

So, why would they say what they say? They are good people who just happen to get a lot of money from someone who's making a lot of money from vaccinating everyone on the planet.

Ok. So why do other doctors recommend wearing masks when you believe they don't work?

robinph

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Why do I believe these doctors are right? Well, Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi is one of the most cited in Europe and nobody had a problem calling him an expert until he questioned the measures taken early on in this lockdown.

Why would he do something that could potentially destroy his reputation?

On the other hand....the experts that have been recommended to me

University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and Johns Hopkins University....and added to that the WHO....What have they got in common. They are heavily funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

So, why would they say what they say? They are good people who just happen to get a lot of money from someone who's making a lot of money from vaccinating everyone on the planet.

What exactly is the thing that worries you about Bill Gates putting money into public health? Other than its really things that national government should be doing.

He's someone with more money than it is possible to spend. Would you prefer he spend it on coke and hookers, or on funding schemes which are for the good of the planet?

Explain exactly why how Bill Gates gives away his money is an issue for you taking a vaccine, or wearing a mask, or believing that covid is real?

The Nal

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Why do I believe these doctors are right? Well, Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi is one of the most cited in Europe and nobody had a problem calling him an expert until he questioned the measures taken early on in this lockdown.

Why do the other 15 million doctors in the world wear masks?

Fifteen million of them.

PhoneMain

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Why do I believe these doctors are right? Well, Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi is one of the most cited in Europe and nobody had a problem calling him an expert until he questioned the measures taken early on in this lockdown.

One of the most cited doctors in Europe? I have literally never heard of him.

By the way, Dr Fauci isn't this magical doctor that we all listen to, doctors generally go for peer reviewed academic journals. Not that we need that much evidence for face masks, intuitively there could be some benefit with literally no risk from wearing them (save for back in March when surgical masks were scarce as hens teeth) so I dont know what the issues are with them. They're not the golden ticket to stopping Covid tho, it's a abundance of measures like hand hygiene, good cough etiquette, social distancing and isolating yourself if you develop symptoms. I cant see any ways here for Bill Gates to make money to be honest!!!!

And for anyone who thinks this is permanent, it's not. 3 or 4 years time we wont need masks or hand hygiene (tho this wont be a bad one to keep!) and there will be young ones shifting the face off each other in Coppers every night of the week! The reasons I say 3 or 4 years time is that I dont think the general people will drop these measures immediately but by the end of this year I could see things being back much closer to normality.

I regurgitate the news

PhoneMain wrote: »

One of the most cited doctors in Europe? I have literally never heard of him.

Well if YOU haven't heard of him...........I take it all back. How can we even consider him on the topic.

By the way...I have not heard of most of the people who have signed the Barrington Declaration however it would make me take notice more than thousands of medical & public health scientists and even more medical practitioners are signing this from all around the world.

https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/

Would you consider their views lesser than the experts you see on the television?

runawaybishop

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Well if YOU haven't heard of him...........I take it all back. How can we even consider him on the topic.

By the way...I have not heard of most of the people who have signed the Barrington Declaration however it would make me take notice more than thousands of medical & public health scientists and even more medical practitioners are signing this from all around the world.

https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/

Would you consider their views lesser than the experts you see on the television?

He's not very highly cited, unless you call references to him being a looper citations? Highly cited or not, he is wrong.

That declaration is horse****. I could sign it right now and check the 'im a doctor' box. It has been 'signed' by such luminaries as Dr Fakeperson and Harold Shipman.

You have no real evidence to show, none at all? Your nonsense may confuse other fools but you will need more that than here.

PhoneMain

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Well if YOU haven't heard of him...........I take it all back. How can we even consider him on the topic.

By the way...I have not heard of most of the people who have signed the Barrington Declaration however it would make me take notice more than thousands of medical & public health scientists and even more medical practitioners are signing this from all around the world.

https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/

Would you consider their views lesser than the experts you see on the television?

I dont think it's quite the home run that you think it is for proving your point.........



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/09/herd-immunity-letter-signed-fake-experts-dr-johnny-bananas-covid


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-herd-immunity-great-barrington-declaration-scientists-signatures-fake-names-b912778.html




Plus, if it was such an amazing declaration, how come only 1 medic from the Republic has signed it?

PintOfView

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Why do I believe these doctors are right? Well, Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi is one of the most cited in Europe and nobody had a problem calling him an expert until he questioned the measures taken early on in this lockdown.

Why would he do something that could potentially destroy his reputation?

On the other hand....the experts that have been recommended to me

University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and Johns Hopkins University....and added to that the WHO....What have they got in common. They are heavily funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

So, why would they say what they say? They are good people who just happen to get a lot of money from someone who's making a lot of money from vaccinating everyone on the planet.

Re Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, I agree that he seems to have good credentials, however wikipedia says
The German non-profit Correctiv fact-checked one of Bhakdi's YouTube videos, and found a number of problematic claims, including the claim that any COVID-19 vaccine would be "pointless", and that the virus posed no more threat than influenza.[20]
also
In October 2020 the University of Mainz issued a statement to the effect that it does not support Bhakdi's views.
So where does that leave us? Obviously there are many in his field who disagree with him!
I'd like to see his claims evaluated by some of his peers, and then we might be able to make a better judgement.

In general, re experts that have been recommended to you, I would just say that if multiple experts offer different opinions on the same subject, then you need to evaluate all those opinions before coming to a conclusion, and not simply believe the expert who was cherry picked for you by someone else.

As regards Bill Gates, etc. The Gates foundation does provide a large amount of funding to the WHO, making up about 11.8% for 20/21
https://open.who.int/2020-21/contributors/contributor
and, again from wikipedia, they seem to have donated lots of money to a large number of universities, colleges and other education and health related organisations.

Despite his generous funding of many organisations he is not the only funder, and while he might have some influence on those organisations how can people make the leap to say he controls them?

Have you read the wikipedia page on the Gates Foundation?
It seems clear to me that they are funding some very worthwhile initiatives and likely are having a big and positive impact on the lives of 10's or 100's of millions of people (eg. water/sanitation/hygene, fighting Aids, TB, Malaria, Polio, etc).

What is there to be concerned about among all the things Gates supports with his funding?
How is helping to reduce or eliminate TB and malaria something bad?
If he had malicious intentions, or wanted to depopulate the world, would he not want malaria and TB and Polio to continue?

I also can't see that Gates is in this to make money. When you say "someone who's making a lot of money from vaccinating everyone on the planet"
what are you referring to? How is he making this money from vaccinations?

Can you point me to any article that objectively analyses how Bill Gates is behind something that is bad for anyone?

I regurgitate the news

PintOfView wrote: »

Can you point me to any article that objectively analyses how Bill Gates is behind something that is bad for anyone?

Can you show me one organisation that Gates contributes(BBC, WHO, any of the universities) that is even slightly critical of the lockdown measures?

I am not saying there is not disagreement on this by the way.

Don't you think there should have been a debate?

Professor Moriarty

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Well if YOU haven't heard of him...........I take it all back. How can we even consider him on the topic.

By the way...I have not heard of most of the people who have signed the Barrington Declaration however it would make me take notice more than thousands of medical & public health scientists and even more medical practitioners are signing this from all around the world.

https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/

Would you consider their views lesser than the experts you see on the television?

Interestingly, there are only 443 verified signatories amongst the "13,618 medical & public health scientists" who purportedly condone this declaration. From an Irish perspective, of many hundreds of Irish "medical & public health scientists" there are just two Irish scientists who are verified signatories to this declaration. So it's validity is questionable to say the least.

I regurgitate the news

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Interestingly, there are only 443 verified signatories amongst the "13,618 medical & public health scientists" who purportedly condone this declaration. From an Irish perspective, of many hundreds of "medical & public health scientists" there are just two Irish scientists who are signatories to this declaration. So it's validity is questionable to say the least.

Only 443? Have you seen where they are from and their field of expertise?

Surely a debate was warranted. Then people like me could shut up asking for a debate

Professor Moriarty

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Only 443? Have you seen where they are from and their field of expertise?

Surely a debate was warranted. Then people like me could shut up asking for a debate

443 out of 100,000s. Statistically invalid.

King Mob

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Only 443? Have you seen where they are from and their field of expertise?

Surely a debate was warranted. Then people like me could shut up asking for a debate

Weird how you're desperate to have your opinion heard, but when you're asked a direct question, you do everything in your power to avoid it.

Why do doctors recommend masks when you believe they don't work?

PintOfView

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

Well if YOU haven't heard of him...........I take it all back. How can we even consider him on the topic.

By the way...I have not heard of most of the people who have signed the Barrington Declaration however it would make me take notice more than thousands of medical & public health scientists and even more medical practitioners are signing this from all around the world.

https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/

Would you consider their views lesser than the experts you see on the television?

Have you read this declaration?
I don't think it's saying the same things as you might be claiming!
There is nothing that says masks are bad, etc.

Here are a few things from it:
"We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young."
"The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. "

I suppose it's one strategy for dealing with the reality of the virus, which they are not denying exists!
Whether that is the best strategy is another thing!

Protecting the vulnerable is not necessarily easy, we saw what happened to the nursing homes last year.
If we let the majority to get back to normal, and let the virus surge uncontrollably, what will it do to the hospitals?
Could we have all our hospitals overrun for months, or longer, with many deaths both from the virus and from other ailments that the hospitals wouldn't have the capacity to treat?

I'd have no objection to a debate on it, but it needs to be realistic, and it would be good to see some other country try it first. For eg., how has Sweden fared, and is it trying to do anything like that?

I regurgitate the news

PintOfView wrote: »

I'd have no objection to a debate on it, but it needs to be realistic, and it would be good to see some other country try it first. For eg., how has Sweden fared, and is it trying to do anything like that?

The names of universities are quite prestigious. To dismiss their specialists (who are people in the relevant fields related to viruses mostly) is strange.

They're not doing lockdown in Belarus and they are getting on fine.

I am glad they are vetting the signatures. There are 13,618 medical & public health scientists and 41,244 medical practitioners that have signed it. They are in the process of vetting them. Saying only 443 have signed it would be saying that the the other 54,419 signatures are fraudulent.

Timberrrrrrrr

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

The names of universities are quite prestigious. To dismiss their specialists (who are people in the relevant fields related to viruses mostly) is strange.

They're not doing lockdown in Belarus and they are getting on fine.

I am glad they are vetting the signatures. There are 13,618 medical & public health scientists and 41,244 medical practitioners that have signed it. They are in the process of vetting them. Saying only 443 have signed it would be saying that the the other 54,419 signatures are fraudulent.

Are you saying that because a "specialist" works at a university thier ideals/ideas/comments are to be taken seriously?

PintOfView

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

The names of universities are quite prestigious. To dismiss their specialists (who are people in the relevant fields related to viruses mostly) is strange.

They're not doing lockdown in Belarus and they are getting on fine.

I am glad they are vetting the signatures. There are 13,618 medical & public health scientists and 41,244 medical practitioners that have signed it. They are in the process of vetting them. Saying only 443 have signed it would be saying that the the other 54,419 signatures are fraudulent.

With regards to that declaration, I haven't dismissed anyone.

I did make the point that their strategy, "Focused Protection", might not be easy to successfully implement, and it may result in more people dead than are dying today. Interestingly they do say "that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine." so they don't seem to be against vaccination.

Re Belarus, I'll look that up now, but what is your information on it? What are they doing that's working?

I regurgitate the news

PintOfView wrote: »

With regards to that declaration, I haven't dismissed anyone.

I did make the point that their strategy, "Focused Protection", might not be easy to successfully implement, and it may result in more people dead than are dying today. Interestingly they do say "that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine." so they don't seem to be against vaccination.

Re Belarus, I'll look that up now, but what is your information on it? What are they doing that's working?

They're not doing anything in Belarus at all really except recently they have placed some restrictions on people coming into the country.

Mostly everything is open.

Less than half the deaths we have had and they have 11 million people there.

runawaybishop

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

They're not doing anything in Belarus at all really except recently they have placed some restrictions on people coming into the country.

Mostly everything is open.

Less than half the deaths we have had and they have 11 million people there.

The main thing they are doing in Belarus is lying. They are underreporting cases and deaths, and
deliberately infecting people protesting about the government's poor response. Any critics are silenced and only the governmental line is allowed to be aired.

Please do a little looking into the nonsense you are posting first.

Timberrrrrrrr

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

They're not doing anything in Belarus at all really except recently they have placed some restrictions on people coming into the country.

Mostly everything is open.

Less than half the deaths we have had and they have 11 million people there.

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3543

Plagued by political turmoil over “Europe’s last dictatorship” and with a president in denial of covid-19, how has Belarus ended up with one of the lowest death rates on the continent?

The relatively low death rate is thought to be thanks to Belarus’s large hospital capacity which allowed the country to isolate people early on, says Andrei Vitushka, a healthcare policy expert at the Belarusian Institute for Strategic Studies in Vilnius, Lithuania.

With 11 hospital beds per 1000 people, Belarus outnumbers nations like Germany (8) or the UK (2.5).

Russia2 using government funds and donations from companies3 and ordinary citizens.4 The country stepped up testing in early April,5 developing its own rapid testing kits6 and switching to the use of domestically produced reagents for polymerase chain reaction testing in May.7 According to government information, there are now 32 laboratories processing samples across the country and testing is widespread in hospitals as well as from GPs.

Another factor is that Belarus has very few care homes (203 beds per 100 000 of the population compared with 854 in the UK), with most elderly citizens living separately.10 This has helped shield its most vulnerable. “In many cases in Belarus, you have already had some isolation of elderly people, particularly in the countryside or in single flats” says Nilsson.

Nilsson says Belarus also benefited from being a relatively isolated country where the government can easily shut down borders and monitor those passing through. “People tend to go in the other direction,” he says, “Very few people will go to Belarus for holidays or work.”

some experts fear that many coronavirus related deaths are registered as cases of pneumonia—UN data show a difference of 5605 between April-June 2019 compared with the same period in 2020.11 And the deaths per capita ratio remains one of the highest in Europe. Nilson is cautious, “Until we have the figures for excess deaths, I don’t want to praise Belarus too much.”

I regurgitate the news

This means nothing to you but I know people living in Belarus and yes, they have a de facto dictator that they don't like but they are happy enough with how things have been handled.

"some experts fear that many coronavirus related deaths are registered as cases of pneumonia"

Some experts might also fear that cases of pneumonia are registered as Covid 19 ( not Coronavirus)

There is no virus called Coronavirus. Coronaviruses are a type of virus and they have existed long before Covid 19.

astrofool

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

They're not doing anything in Belarus at all really except recently they have placed some restrictions on people coming into the country.

Mostly everything is open.

Less than half the deaths we have had and they have 11 million people there.

A few different things going on in Belarus (pop: ~9.5 million)

They have much less care homes and elderly per capita than other countries, they have an oversized hospital system, so have less capacity constraints than other countries. Many citizens are practicing isolation themselves without being told by the government, also, the government likely isn't reporting very accurate figures as they are determined to keep everything open no matter what. Their case count has jumped significantly recently, despite not being a tourist destination, and closing themselves off to foreign travel. They are currently administering vaccines as well (Russian and Chinese).

Timberrrrrrrr

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

This means nothing to you but I know people living in Belarus and yes, they have a de facto dictator that they don't like but they are happy enough with how things have been handled.

"some experts fear that many coronavirus related deaths are registered as cases of pneumonia"

Some experts might also fear that cases of pneumonia are registered as Covid 19 ( not Coronavirus)

There is no virus called Coronavirus. Coronaviruses are a type of virus and they have existed long before Covid 19.

Okay :rolleyes:

astrofool

I regurgitate the news wrote: »

This means nothing to you but I know people living in Belarus and yes, they have a de facto dictator that they don't like but they are happy enough with how things have been handled.

"some experts fear that many coronavirus related deaths are registered as cases of pneumonia"

Some experts might also fear that cases of pneumonia are registered as Covid 19 ( not Coronavirus)

There is no virus called Coronavirus. Coronaviruses are a type of virus and they have existed long before Covid 19.

I would be interested to know more about those people in Belarus who are openly critical of the dictator there, but seem to have freedom to tell you this, and message you about it.

In the quote, coronavirus was referring to SARS-COV2, COVID-19 is a disease, not a virus, if you're going to correct others, keep it straight yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=128fp0rqfbE

Professor Moriarty

astrofool wrote: »

I would be interested to know more about those people in Belarus who are openly critical of the dictator there, but seem to have freedom to tell you this, and message you about it.

In the quote, coronavirus was referring to SARS-COV2, COVID-19 is a disease, not a virus, if you're going to correct others, keep it straight yourself.

If Belarus told me it was raining outside, I'd step out to check.