Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

spookwoman

Surge plan, the one they never publish.....

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-09-08/1394/
Deputy Carol Nolan asked the Minister for Health the steps being taken to increase the number of base adult critical care beds within the public health system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22561/20]

1395. Deputy Carol Nolan asked the Minister for Health the reason there was an increase of just 19 adult critical care beds within the public health system from March 2020 to 20 August 2020 (details supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22562/20]
1396. Deputy Carol Nolan asked the Minister for Health if the critical care capacity within the public health system is sufficient to admit up to 15% of hospitalised cases to critical care as recommended by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) guidance 25/3/2020; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that the same EDC guidance has identified Ireland as being at an extremely high risk of saturation of its baseline intensive care unit capacity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22563/20]

The Health Service Capacity Review 2018 recommended that Ireland’s critical care capacity be increased to 430 beds by 2031. In early 2020, baseline permanent adult critical care capacity in Ireland was reported by the National Office of Clinical Audit (NOCA) to be 255 beds. Funding for a further 40 adult critical care beds, and two paediatric critical care beds, was provided as part of the response to Covid-19 in March 2020. Surge ICU capacity supports the provision of critical care as required.

My Department and the HSE have been engaging in regard to critical care capacity requirements in the public hospital system and consideration is ongoing.

ACitizenErased

spookwoman wrote: »

Surge plan, the one they never publish.....

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-09-08/1394/
Deputy Carol Nolan asked the Minister for Health the steps being taken to increase the number of base adult critical care beds within the public health system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22561/20]

1395. Deputy Carol Nolan asked the Minister for Health the reason there was an increase of just 19 adult critical care beds within the public health system from March 2020 to 20 August 2020 (details supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22562/20]
1396. Deputy Carol Nolan asked the Minister for Health if the critical care capacity within the public health system is sufficient to admit up to 15% of hospitalised cases to critical care as recommended by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) guidance 25/3/2020; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that the same EDC guidance has identified Ireland as being at an extremely high risk of saturation of its baseline intensive care unit capacity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22563/20]

The Health Service Capacity Review 2018 recommended that Ireland’s critical care capacity be increased to 430 beds by 2031. In early 2020, baseline permanent adult critical care capacity in Ireland was reported by the National Office of Clinical Audit (NOCA) to be 255 beds. Funding for a further 40 adult critical care beds, and two paediatric critical care beds, was provided as part of the response to Covid-19 in March 2020. Surge ICU capacity supports the provision of critical care as required.

My Department and the HSE have been engaging in regard to critical care capacity requirements in the public hospital system and consideration is ongoing.

It's not necessary for the public to know, to be fair. Doesn't make any difference to us what the surge plan is.

Deeper Blue

Funsterdelux wrote: »

Is there a numbers round?

All small numbers for me please Carol

Arghus

Gas, without trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, how the general emotional tenor of the thread swings wildly at times.

A day of higher than expected numbers: Christ we're fcked, they need to quit dithering and lock us down. People are dying!

A day of lower than expected numbers: Christ the government are over reacting, they need to stop feeding the fear. Businesses are dying!

s1ippy

Anyone know why haven't Sweden updated their cases or deaths since September 5th?

Arghus

Arghus wrote: »

Gas, without trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, how the general emotional tenor of the thread swings wildly at times.

A day of higher than expected numbers: Christ we're fcked, they need to quit dithering and lock us down. People are dying!

A day of lower than expected numbers: Christ the government are over reacting, they need to stop feeding the fear. Businesses are dying!

It's a balancing act alright and an emotional rollercoaster.

I like the articles that its weakening just for peace of mind.

Think the country will need a lockdown for a month next month just to get r value below 1 for a sustained period.

John O.Groats

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Because I know nobody else who watches RTE. I watch it for the news. Only other person who watches it is my nan.

For the news too?

Arghus

Arghus wrote: »

Gas, without trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, how the general emotional tenor of the thread swings wildly at times.

A day of higher than expected numbers: Christ we're fcked, they need to quit dithering and lock us down. People are dying!

A day of lower than expected numbers: Christ the government are over reacting, they need to stop feeding the fear. Businesses are dying!

It certainly is reactionary

spookwoman

s1ippy wrote: »

Anyone know why haven't Sweden updated their cases or deaths since September 5th?

Seems to be updated here
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa/page/page_0/

GT89

spookwoman wrote: »

283 Critical Care Beds Open and staffed
241 Occupied including 17 Covid patients
20 Beds reserved
38 available at 18.30 hours

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/newsfeatures/covid19-updates/covid-19-daily-operations-update-20-00-21-september-2020.pdf

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

John O.Groats

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

Completely untrue.

GT89

John O.Groats wrote: »

Completely untrue.

All that fearmongering can't be good for you. When you're locked up in your house in a few weeks time Ile be out enjoying the autumn sunshine.

bb1234567

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

40% of ICU capacity in Madrid for example currently is catering to COVID patients, and the situation is not even considered that bad yet, at least compared to April. So what do you think happens to all the heart attack, car crash victims etc when all the beds become filled with covid patients? That's why 'all the panic talk about ICU'. We don't all have heart attacks enmasse, it's exactly why ICUs don't become overwhelmed by heart attacks. As you know, COVID tends to make very large numbers of people sick very quickly if left to it's devices. Like are you for real? Are you trolling?

GT89

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

its almost as if all of these things arent all that likely to happen to very large numbers of us all at once, but that a pandemic isnt comparable

i mean its almost exactly like that

i mean its that

thats the thing

let us know when that penny drops

GT89

bb1234567 wrote: »

40% of ICU capacity in Madrid for example currently is catering to COVID patients, and the situation is not even considered that bad yet, at least compared to April. So what do you think happens to all the heart attack, car crash victims etc when all the beds become filled with covid patients? That's why 'all the panic talk about ICU'

It's been taken up mostly by the over 65s/immunocompromised. Put in targetted measures to protect these groups and you won't have these problems. Fat people are more vulnerable too so include those with a BMI of more than 30 in any targetted measures/recommendations.

John O.Groats

GT89 wrote: »

All that fearmongering can't be good for you. When you're locked up in your house in a few weeks time Ile be out enjoying the autumn sunshine.

Really? I wouldn`t be too sure about that if I were you. BTW have you done anything yet about dealing with your issues?

GT89

John O.Groats wrote: »

Really? I wouldn`t be too sure about that if I were you.

What the weather or the lockdown?

JP Liz V1

stockshares wrote: »

Latest ICU figures from Paul Reid.

https://twitter.com/paulreiddublin/status/1308155466049085441?s=19

90 in total in ROI hospitals with Covid now?

Arghus

GT89 wrote: »

It's been taken up mostly by the over 65s/immunocompromised. Put in targetted measures to protect these groups and you won't have these problems. Fat people are more vulnerable too so include those with a BMI of more than 30 in any targetted measures/recommendations.

Targetted measures like what.

John O.Groats

GT89 wrote: »

What the weather or the lockdown?

Both.

majcos

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

At peak in April, 166 of our ICU beds in a single day were occupied by patients with Covid-19. It is incredible we managed to accommodate 166 patients with a single illness at the same time in ICU at any time especially if you look at the usual occupancy levels in ICU discounting or before Covid.

As per the figures you use, there are 241/283 ICUs currently occupied with 17 patients with Covid-19 cases. Can you not see why there are concerns about where to fit patients with Covid-19 requiring ICU care if we reach the same peak? Or where you would fit and how you would manage to look after the ‘healthy person’ who happened to have a car accident during a Covid surge if the ICU was already overflowing with patients with Covid?

Hospitalizations and ICU admissions are nowhere near what they were in April/May but the concern is understandable when you look at what the numbers were like in these settings just a few months ago.

Trying to source some exact figures for ICU admissions for influenza in previous winters but it has never reached the numbers Covid did.

Edited: Total admissions to ICU for influenza for 2019/2020 season is 154. People admitted to ICU and to hospital with influenza/an influenza like illness are tested for influenza. Would not necessarily be tested in the community but patients are tested in hospital setting. Total admissions to ICU with Covid to date is 455.

GT89

[Deleted User] wrote: »

its almost as if all of these things arent all that likely to happen to very large numbers of us all at once, but that a pandemic isnt comparable

i mean its almost exactly like that

i mean its that

thats the thing

let us know when that penny drops

Swine flu in 2009 was a pandemic without the extreme fearmongering. Where's the 120,000 deaths that were predicted back in March now I know the usual argument is "but it was the measures we took which stopped that" but we haven't even come anywhere even remotely close to that.

Now the measures taken may have a had a part to play but maybe the fact that the virus isn't quite as deadly as the media are making out is playing an even bigger part.

GT89

Arghus wrote: »

Targetted measures like what.

Isolating the vulnerable and use of masks as PPE for them.

John O.Groats

GT89 wrote: »

Isolating the vulnerable and use of masks as PPE for them.

But you constantly claim that mask wearing is useless, so why is it now suddenly something that you would recommend? Is the penny beginning to drop?

GT89

majcos wrote: »

At peak in April, 166 of our ICU beds in a single day were occupied by patients with Covid-19. It is incredible we managed to accommodate 166 patients with a single illness at the same time in ICU at any time especially if you look at the usual occupancy levels in ICU discounting or before Covid.

As per the figures you use, there are 241/283 ICUs currently occupied with 17 patients with Covid-19 cases. Can you not see why there are concerns about where to fit patients with Covid-19 requiring ICU care if we reach the same peak? Or where you would fit and how you would manage to look after the ‘healthy person’ who happened to have a car accident during a Covid surge if the ICU was already overflowing with patients with Covid?

Hospitalizations and ICU admissions are nowhere near what they were in April/May but the concern is understandable when you look at what the numbers were like in these settings just a few months ago.

Trying to source some exact figures for ICU admissions for influenza in previous winters but it has never reached the numbers Covid did.

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

Goldengirl

s1ippy wrote: »

Anyone know why haven't Sweden updated their cases or deaths since September 5th?

Sweden's testing seems to have slowed down a heck of a lot too.

Arghus

GT89 wrote: »

Isolating the vulnerable and use of masks as PPE for them.

Well the whole country is using masks and PPE at the moment.

What's the estimate of the amount of people in Ireland who have a underlying condition? It's something like a third isn't it?

So keep up to a third of the population under lock and key indefinitely?

Bearing in mind as well that hospitals will be effectively off limits to these people if Covid is circulating widely in the community at large, which it will be if we're making even less of an effort to suppress it than we already are.

And of course a lot of these potentially vulnerable people live with others or rely on carers, doctors and nursing staff who they will have to come into contact. You'll have to isolate these people too if covid is circulating widely in the community.

Simply "isolating the vulnerable" isn't as easy or as straightforward as it sounds.

GT89

John O.Groats wrote: »

But you constantly claim that mask wearing is useless, so why is it now suddenly something that you would recommend? Is the penny beginning to drop?

Only an N95/FFP2 mask actually works. Masks were introduced supoosedly to stop the spread but the cases have gone through the roof since they were introduced. Masks that offer actual protection would be useful for the vulnerable whilst the virus should be let run through the healthy population.

spookwoman

GT89 wrote: »

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

What proof do you have of this, that those in ICU came in with another illness?

bb1234567

GT89 wrote: »

Swine flu in 2009 was a pandemic without the extreme fearmongering. Where's the 120,000 deaths that were predicted back in March now I know the usual argument is "but it was the measures we took which stopped that" but we haven't even come anywhere even remotely close to that.

Now the measures taken may have a had a part to play but maybe the fact that the virus isn't quite as deadly as the media are making out is playing an even bigger part.

Swine flu was without fear mongering because it hardly killed anybody

USA swine flu excess deaths were 12,500
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-swine-flu-spread-rapidly-but-not-deadly-covid-19/5577001002/

COVID excess deaths in the USA are over 250,000
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19s-other-unnecessary-death-toll/

There is fear mongering because COVID is the third leading cause of death in the US for the 7th month running now.