Are we really that similar to the Scots?

Gregor Samsa

cj maxx wrote: »

Scots Gallic and gaelige are spelt slightly differently . 2 dialects of what is basically the same language .
Spread to Scotland from Ireland I believe. Ulster Scots as a language just seems to be English spelt phonetically and not a true language at all

Ulster Scots is a dialect of Scots - which is very closely related to English. There’s a never-ending debate (largely political) about whether it’s a language in its own right, or dialect of English. There’s a bit more to it than just English spelled phonetically, as it has its own vocabulary and some different rules. It has 4 dialects of its own, including Ulster Scots.

Scots is not to be confused with Scottish Gaelic (Scots Gaelic as you referred to it). They’re two completely different languages. Scottish Gaelic descended from Old Irish, as did our Modern Irish - but one is not a dialect of the other - they share a common origin, like the way Dutch and Modern German do. They’re different enough to be separate languages, although there is some mutual intelligibility.

So you have Scots - which is a West Germanic language related to English, and Scottish Gaelic - an Insular Celtic language related to Irish. The reason linguists usually don’t call it “Scots Gaelic” is to avoid confusion with “Scots” as they’re very different languages.

amadangomor

Kylta wrote: »

Their were tribes in scotland and ireland before the the celts and the vikings. Who said were celts anyway? We think we celts, but were is the proof? Next ill here Cu Chulainn was an irish hero?

Exactly. Depends on what Celtic means as it not well defined. Was more an 19th century catch all term for various tribes at different times from Ireland and as far away as Turkey.

My understanding is the Celtic/Gaelic culture was brought by a ruling class and the main population were not ethnically "Celtic".

Interesting to think what language they would have spoken. Was it related to Basque? There are a few words in Irish that have no Indo European roots. Portán for crab and I think Farraige for sea.

Hangdogroad

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Holy crap I just looked up the "Scottish" actor and it's a guy from London (Ray Winston) putting on a Scottish accent in what I presume is supposed to be an Irish character. WTF

David O Hara Is the guy with the Scottish accent. Hes Scottish though as his name suggests of Irish descent. Hes played Irish characters before most notably in Braveheart and did a reasonable stab at an Irish accent so dont know why he didn't do so here.

Ray Winstones attempt at a Boston accent is pretty bad mind, good actor in the right role but he cant do accents .

kenmm

Generally I find Scotland to be friendly and welcoming and never had any issue any time I've been there. Glasgow is a very underrated city and people would happily help out if you needed something or just seem much more willing to be nice.

Compared with Dublin, night and day of a difference. I think Dublin is often not. People here like to think they are open and welcoming, but not as much as what I see in Scotland.

To those that say it's dour, miserable, has all the sectarian troubles etc - I don't think you've ever been there.

Social problems exist (of course) but they are more associated with poverty and poor areas, not enough means etc

kenmm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What tropes? Before you ask it has nothing to do with either group of ‘them’uns’ up North. Anyone who has any dealings with the Nordie knows it doesn’t matter what ‘side’ they are on. The vast majority of people up there are belligerent, sour, mean-spirited, ‘agricultural’, and pretty stupid as well.

Characteristics not uncommon in the southern Scot either to be honest. I mean Celtic vs Rangers shows how backward these people are. Such venom, hatred, and stupidity shown as their fans watch absolutely atrocious hoof ball while singing songs about 500 years ago.

Those tropes I imagine!

There are a minority who have such hatred. But my experience (which is probably more than anyone on here except those who spent there entire life in one of these areas) is vastly different. Have you ever been to any of these places?

This isn't in particular is pretty ignorant
'The vast majority of people up there are belligerent, sour, mean-spirited, ‘agricultural’, and pretty stupid as well. '

kenmm

Dempo1 wrote: »

I lived and worked in Scotland and Wales & I've have to say we are far more like the people from Wales, infact I don't think we have much in common with the Scots at all, albeit I had excellent experience of both, as an aside Edinburgh was actually the Place I have to say had the most Rudest people I ever met or encountered worldwide, Glasgow the complete opposite. But if you ever want to meet the funniest, craziest and Genuine people, Swansea and more specifically the Mumbles, just outside is the place to go and actually not unlike the Dingle Penisula in terms of scenery.

Edinburgh is probably the least friendly part of Scotland. A lot if tourism and second homes there. Probably culturally more similar to Dublin with Temple bar. Unfortunately it's the place everyone heads to or people have most experience of when they think of Scotland.

Hamsterchops

jmlad2020 wrote: »

You definitely got an A1 in honours history didn't you

Oh, get you laddie :rolleyes:

Nay any room for a bit'a tongue in cheek humour in a Scots-Irish thread? Tartan knickers to you.

Mad_maxx

the biggest myth is that sectarianism is limited to Glasgow , the only reason its most prolific there is the number of catholics is tiny outside the cities

gimme the english anyday over that lot

the english adopted protestantism for political reasons and never really gave a tuppence about the theological differences , the Scots went full on fundamentalist calvinist , hence the prejudice experienced by irish immigrants to scotland which was absent in england and wales , the english looked down on us like everyone else but not for anything reformation related

kenmm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Oh, get you laddie :rolleyes:

Nay any room for a bit'a tongue in cheek humour in a Scots-Irish thread?

Nah, it's because you said deep fried mars bar. Everyone knows deep fried pizza and haggis are the two main staples.

kenmm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the biggest myth is that sectarianism is limited to Glasgow , the only reason its most prolific there is the number of catholics is tiny outside the cities

gimme the english anyday over that lot

Where did you experience that/ what do you base that on?

Dyr

Dempo1 wrote: »

I lived and worked in Scotland and Wales & I've have to say we are far more like the people from Wales, infact I don't think we have much in common with the Scots at all, albeit I had excellent experience of both, as an aside Edinburgh was actually the Place I have to say had the most Rudest people I ever met or encountered worldwide, Glasgow the complete opposite. But if you ever want to meet the funniest, craziest and Genuine people, Swansea and more specifically the Mumbles, just outside is the place to go and actually not unlike the Dingle Penisula in terms of scenery.

Oddly enough, I always found the Welsh a lot closer to us that the Scots in terms of temperment. Welsh are fairly easy going. Scots can be a bit more like Cork people, always chippy and looking to find fault

begbysback

We are the exact same, trainspotting is practically an Irish film with scottish accents.

blinding

I believe the Scots are more inclined to tell ya that “ You are a K´¨nt to your Face.

The Irish would be mumbling into their hands and that is when they are not sniggering in to their hands and of course there is no better Race in the world at telling you how Great the Irish are than the Irish ~ ~ ~ funnily enough nobody else sees this Greatness at all ! !

Thelonious Monk

I lived there for a while and found them similar to us, but I mean people in Newcastle and Manchester are similar to us too. Moral of the story is that most of the Brits are pretty similar to us regardless of what part they're from.

Capt'n Midnight

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

There’s a never-ending debate (largely political) about whether it’s a language in its own right, or dialect of English.

It's mutually intelligible with English. Once you get through the accent you're most of the way there for spoken Ulster Scots. If you can understand Rab C Nesbitt you'd have no problem learning it.

Spelling is interesting, it's not quite a one to one substitution.
Lesson 3. How to use 'Tha' instead of 'The'
http://www.ulsterscotsacademy.com/education/lesson-3.pdf

alchemist33

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I lived there for a while and found them similar to us, but I mean people in Newcastle and Manchester are similar to us too. Moral of the story is that most of the Brits are pretty similar to us regardless of what part they're from.

Very true. When travelling I found that the northern English I met were even easier to get on with than some Irish. We're probably more similar to them than peoole from Essex

Errashareesh

Overall I think we're very different tbh.

The Scots seem more blunt, more forthright, more "get on with it", less whingey.

corner of hells

My father was Scottish and I have a very distinct Scottish surname, I can trace my family back through generations in Scotland, I am part of a Sept first and then a Highland clan.
I have a tartan and Sept motto too.

I and my clan are available, if anyone wants to fight us also we do freelance mercenary work.

Dyr

Errashareesh wrote: »

Overall I think we're very different tbh.

The Scots seem more blunt, more forthright, more "get on with it", less whingey.

Thats why I compared some Scots to the Langers, great men for straight talking so long as they're not on the recieving end, then its drama and grudge holding for eternity

Zebra3

Bambi wrote: »

Oddly enough, I always found the Welsh a lot closer to us that the Scots in terms of temperment. Welsh are fairly easy going. Scots can be a bit more like Cork people, always chippy and looking to find fault

Welsh easy going?

Spend some time in Cardiff.

Must be the most aggressive kip in Europe.

Strumms

I spent a lot of time in Glasgow and Edinburgh on work trips...

Found the Scots to be immensely nice and caring people. I would have been working I guess going by name anyway with a decent cross section of society.

ALL seemed to get along at least and in that job and context were respectful, inclusive and fun to be around... no racial or sectarian undertones whatsoever. If I was finishing on a Friday and not seeing them for six months I’d head over to the terminal to fly back and two lads would often hang around for a pint and then bus it home, one was definitely a Protestant as he just be mentioning going to Ibrox on Saturday like it was buying a kit kat.

The only ‘racial’ undertones I ever experienced was courtesy of a fella in the office in the east end of London who seemed to have a fascination with a dislike of Irish and in fact all foreign people.. “so Jofra, what you up to for the weekend mate, stay at home ? Take you long to get home, Nairobi isn’t it mate ?” It was all said with a jolly smile and element of ‘humor’ but you could here the muttered utterances of racism at times all be it mostly to a like minded colleague.

Errashareesh

Yeah I was blown away by how nice the people in Edinburgh are. And customer service is fantastic.

Bambi wrote: »

Thats why I compared some Scots to the Langers, great men for straight talking so long as they're not on the recieving end, then its drama and grudge holding for eternity

I'm a langer and a big fan of the Scots (apart from the loyalist loons obv) and I'm OK with that assessment.

Fr Tod Umptious

Strumms wrote: »

I spent a lot of time in Glasgow and Edinburgh on work trips...

Found the Scots to be immensely nice and caring people. I would have been working I guess going by name anyway with a decent cross section of society.

ALL seemed to get along at least and in that job and context were respectful, inclusive and fun to be around... no racial or sectarian undertones whatsoever. If I was finishing on a Friday and not seeing them for six months I’d head over to the terminal to fly back and two lads would often hang around for a pint and then bus it home, one was definitely a Protestant as he just be mentioning going to Ibrox on Saturday like it was buying a kit kat.

The only ‘racial’ undertones I ever experienced was courtesy of a fella in the office in the east end of London who seemed to have a fascination with a dislike of Irish and in fact all foreign people.. “so Jofra, what you up to for the weekend mate, stay at home ? Take you long to get home, Nairobi isn’t it mate ?” It was all said with a jolly smile and element of ‘humor’ but you could here the muttered utterances of racism at times all be it mostly to a like minded colleague.

It say for lots of Rangers fans going to Ibrox is as normal as buying a kit kat.

Or did you expect him to temper the conversation about going to Ibrox because you were present ?

Strumms

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It say for lots of Rangers fans going to Ibrox is as normal as buying a kit kat.

Or did you expect him to temper the conversation about going to Ibrox because you were present ?

I didn’t ‘expect‘ anything my friend, simply relating my experiences of being around people of differing backgrounds, beliefs and possibly viewpoints on certain political and cultural outlooks....

bob mcbob

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the biggest myth is that sectarianism is limited to Glasgow , the only reason its most prolific there is the number of catholics is tiny outside the cities

gimme the english anyday over that lot

the english adopted protestantism for political reasons and never really gave a tuppence about the theological differences , the Scots went full on fundamentalist calvinist , hence the prejudice experienced by irish immigrants to scotland which was absent in england and wales , the english looked down on us like everyone else but not for anything reformation related

Here are some facts about Irish immigration to Scotland.

As you can see a significant number of Irish settled in Scotland during the famine and a lot stayed.

The largest group of immigrants to settle in Scotland are the Irish. From the early 1800s most of the emigration, however, was on a temporary basis, and peaked during key points in the farming calendar, such as the harvest. Irish settlement became more distinct with the development of cotton weaving, the construction of railways and the general expansion of the economy. The great famine of 1846–47 resulted in floods of Irish immigrants coming into the UK. According to the 1841 census, the Irish-born population of Scotland stood at 4.8%. Ten years later it increased to 7.2% as compared with 2.9% for England and Wales. Between 1841 and 1851 the Irish population of Scotland increased by 90%. Nevertheless, as the century progressed the numbers of Irish immigrants shrank to 3.7% in 1911. The census figures, however, only recorded those who were Irish-born, while children of Irish immigrants born in Scotland were classified as Scottish.

https://www.johngraycentre.org/about/archives/brief-history-emigration-immigration-scotland-research-guide-2/

Sure there were problems in the past but I would interested in what the reaction would be in Ireland today if over the course of 10 years, there was an influx of over 320000 people (from say Nigeria) - competing for housing, work, resources etc.

As a Catholic Scot of Irish descent, I have never experienced sectarianism but I am not saying it does not exist - there are scum in all countries.

When I lived in Ireland, most people were welcoming when they heard my accent but there were some people who would visibly back away. I was also advised there were some pubs I shouldn't go into with my accent - so it works both ways.

circadian

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What tropes? Before you ask it has nothing to do with either group of ‘them’uns’ up North. Anyone who has any dealings with the Nordie knows it doesn’t matter what ‘side’ they are on. The vast majority of people up there are belligerent, sour, mean-spirited, ‘agricultural’, and pretty stupid as well.

Characteristics not uncommon in the southern Scot either to be honest. I mean Celtic vs Rangers shows how backward these people are. Such venom, hatred, and stupidity shown as their fans watch absolutely atrocious hoof ball while singing songs about 500 years ago.

All the tropes you just reinforced in this post.

I've dealt with nordies. In fact I've been dealing with nordies my entire life considering I am one. It's rare to come across someone truly mean spirited, bigoted, sour or anything else. The reality is, just like anywhere else, the majority of people just want to get along and get on with their lives.

Hamsterchops

bob mcbob wrote: »

... The great famine of 1846–47 resulted in floods of Irish immigrants coming into Britain the UK.

We were part of the UK during the great famine.

Jimbob1977

Ethnically we are Celtic stock and have a close relationship.

However, there was a schism 300-400 years ago.

o The Reformation made Scotland a largely Protestant nation. Ireland remained a Catholic country.

o Scotland almost went bankrupt after a disastrous colonisation attempt in Panama. To survive, they effectively sold themselves to the English. Many clans converted to Protestantism to benefit from English favours.

The deepest wound was the Plantation of Ulster. The Scots effectively stole a quarter of Ireland and disinherited the Irish.

Later they became the 'engine room' of the British Empire. Clever, ruthless, efficient, dour.

When offered independence in 2014, they preferred remaining under the English thumb.

Hamsterchops

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

When offered independence in 2014, they preferred remaining under the English thumb.

:rolleyes:

Hardly under the English thumb, more like remaining as part of the United Kingdom with their Kith & kin in Wales, NI and England. Obviously they also regard us as being part of the same family, even if we have removed ourselves from being "under the English thumb" as you put it.

Errashareesh

circadian wrote: »

All the tropes you just reinforced in this post.

I've dealt with nordies. In fact I've been dealing with nordies my entire life considering I am one. It's rare to come across someone truly mean spirited, bigoted, sour or anything else. The reality is, just like anywhere else, the majority of people just want to get along and get on with their lives.

Absolutely. Any people from the North of Ireland I know - nationalist or unionist - are exceptionally lovely.

road_high

I’ve always had good experiences with Scots either there or living here. They are quite divided as to being part of the union which in my opinion is their own business and there are advantages and disadvantages either way. They are tight with money but I think a lot of that is due to not having a lot historically so they are careful with it. Most rural Irish people are the same in that regard too.
Overly nice friendly people but I find the English generally the same with just some weird notions about Ireland which you can take with a pinch of salt rather than being all wound up about it.
The tension between the English and Scots is 100 times more apparent even if it is mostly jovial

road_high

Errashareesh wrote: »

Absolutely. Any people from the North of Ireland I know - nationalist or unionist - are exceptionally lovely.

I always find them extremely polite in shops and business. Especially compared to Dublin where good manners and service appear to be alien concepts these days.

Dyr

Zebra3 wrote: »

Welsh easy going?

Spend some time in Cardiff.

Must be the most aggressive kip in Europe.

Lived there for a while was back in the day but it nowhere near as mental as Newport..or Dublin

Thelonious Monk

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

The deepest wound was the Plantation of Ulster. The Scots effectively stole a quarter of Ireland and disinherited the Irish

Well they moved and were offered incentives to move to a different part of the UK, hardly their fault following the will of their Government.
You could say Irish settlers in USA and Australia stole land from the Natives in those countries.

road_high

Hamsterchops wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Hardly under the English thumb, more like remaining as part of the United Kingdom with their Kith & kin in Wales, NI and England. Obviously they also regard us as being part of the same family, even if we have removed ourselves from being "under the English thumb" as you put it.

There’s a few narrow window between independence and remaining in the U.K. i Can’t see the Scottish independence movement going away- the direction of travel seems fairly inevitable

blinding

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It say for lots of Rangers fans going to Ibrox is as normal as buying a kit kat.

Or did you expect him to temper the conversation about going to Ibrox because you were present ?

I worked with a couple of Rangers supporters and they were all for Scottish Independence and sound lads to have pint with.

I did get the strong feeling that I was not welcome at a Rangers roadside sandwich bar in the East End of Glasgow once = sure it might have just been me ! !

Junkyard Tom

I've little doubt that being in the UK has held Scotland back enormously. I saw an interesting tweet t'other day comparing Scotland with Norway:

twitter.com/romansarecrazy

I think if I was a Scot I'd be really annoyed by the carry-on in Westminster.

Strumms

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It say for lots of Rangers fans going to Ibrox is as normal as buying a kit kat.

Or did you expect him to temper the conversation about going to Ibrox because you were present ?

I didn’t at all my friend , I was merely expressing my experience of the normality of relationships in that context between people of differing beliefs and cultures.

blinding

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I've little doubt that being in the UK has held Scotland back enormously. I saw an interesting tweet t'other day comparing Scotland with Norway:

twitter.com/romansarecrazy

I think if I was a Scot I'd be really annoyed by the carry-on in Westminster.

Scotland should be a Norway ~ ~ They were robbed of their Oil.

They were quiet too long ~ ~ way too Long.

amadangomor

bob mcbob wrote: »

Here are some facts about Irish immigration to Scotland.

As you can see a significant number of Irish settled in Scotland during the famine and a lot stayed.

The largest group of immigrants to settle in Scotland are the Irish. From the early 1800s most of the emigration, however, was on a temporary basis, and peaked during key points in the farming calendar, such as the harvest. Irish settlement became more distinct with the development of cotton weaving, the construction of railways and the general expansion of the economy. The great famine of 1846–47 resulted in floods of Irish immigrants coming into the UK. According to the 1841 census, the Irish-born population of Scotland stood at 4.8%. Ten years later it increased to 7.2% as compared with 2.9% for England and Wales. Between 1841 and 1851 the Irish population of Scotland increased by 90%. Nevertheless, as the century progressed the numbers of Irish immigrants shrank to 3.7% in 1911. The census figures, however, only recorded those who were Irish-born, while children of Irish immigrants born in Scotland were classified as Scottish.

https://www.johngraycentre.org/about/archives/brief-history-emigration-immigration-scotland-research-guide-2/

Sure there were problems in the past but I would interested in what the reaction would be in Ireland today if over the course of 10 years, there was an influx of over 320000 people (from say Nigeria) - competing for housing, work, resources etc.

As a Catholic Scot of Irish descent, I have never experienced sectarianism but I am not saying it does not exist - there are scum in all countries.

When I lived in Ireland, most people were welcoming when they heard my accent but there were some people who would visibly back away. I was also advised there were some pubs I shouldn't go into with my accent - so it works both ways.

Good post until the last paragraph.

People would back away when they hear your accent? Sorry but that would not happen and is down to your own perception. Can you give a specific example of a place this happened?

What pubs could you not go to? Some wannabee IRA ****hole on the Northside of Dublin would be the only place I might think of but even they would more likely not give a ****e as long as you were sound.

Dyr

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I've little doubt that being in the UK has held Scotland back enormously. I saw an interesting tweet t'other day comparing Scotland with Norway:

I think if I was a Scot I'd be really annoyed by the carry-on in Westminster.

The Scots have always been happy enough to let the English run the show for them, finding oil wasnt going to change that.

Junkyard Tom

Bambi wrote: »

The Scots have always been happy enough to let the English run the show for them

Not the Tories. There's a lot of hate for the Tories in Scotland.

dd973

''Originally Posted by Jimbob1977 View Post
When offered independence in 2014, they preferred remaining under the English thumb.''

The British Establishment state (the UK of GB&NI) doesn't even represent the English, it represents itself and it's backers and safeguarding centuries of privilege.

Most Scots are sound and very similar, Glaswegians are a bit like the Scousers of Scotland, Irish influenced and very witty, always had the impression that the Eastern half of Scotland is a bit more quintessentially Scottish than the Western half, the islanders off the West Coast are very much like rural Irish folk. The 'Rangers' types shouldn't colour peoples impression of the country, they're mostly sad deluded idiots who don't even want to be Scottish.

Tuco88

They didn't like Thatcher thats for sure.

Who would you rather be in the pub with the Scots,English or Welsh?

Dyr

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not the Tories. There's a lot of hate for the Tories in Scotland.

All talk, once the Scottish Lords handed the keys over to the English they all settled down and accepted their lot. Good luck to em, Mel Gibson is as close as they ever got to going their own way.

Alejandro68

I can understand most Irish accents, the Scottish I need an interpreter.

kenmm

Bambi wrote: »

All talk, once the Scottish Lords handed the keys over to the English they all settled down and accepted their lot. Good luck to em, Mel Gibson is as close as they ever got to going their own way.

Maybe if there is another world war they can try and sneak in there and take it back?? :pac:

(Runs away..)

Tuco88

Bambi wrote: »

All talk, once the Scottish Lords handed the keys over to the English they all settled down and accepted their lot. Good luck to em, Mel Gibson is as close as they ever got to going their own way.

Most of that film was shot in Ireland how ironic. All the major battles anyway... Freedoommm... We actually have that in Wicklow too ha.

bobbyy gee

Granadino wrote: »

I found people in Edinburgh to be polite and helpful the many times I’ve been there

St andrews
People were really rude

blinding

Bambi wrote: »

The Scots have always been happy enough to let the English run the show for them, finding oil wasnt going to change that.

Why would anyplace that Called itself a Country allow the English to steal their Oil without putting up a Fight ? ?