Government urged to drop novels with 'racial slurs' from Junior Cert syllabus

Edgware

Tony EH wrote: »

Timmy?

How's that an insult to Irish people?

Ever been to Glasgow?

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

Timmy?

How's that an insult to Irish people?

Edgware wrote: »

Ever been to Glasgow?

ah, so you mean Tim not timmy.

ILoveYourVibes

Elisa Greasy Bank wrote: »

Seems like the Department of education are thinking of changing the school curriculum because a few people got offended about some books. The books in question are To Kill A Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men. I've never read Of Mice and Men but I did read To Kill A Mockingbird. Powerful book and equally as powerful movie. Removing these books would be a mistake in my opinion. Acknowledging that events like what happened in To Kill A Mockingbird is important for us to move on as a society. We need to see and learn about the events of our past, not forget them and pretend that they didn't exist or never happened. This madness needs to stop..

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-racist-novels-junior-cert-black-lives-matter-5201948-Sep2020/

Black parents are not asking them to drop these novels.

They are asking some context for them. And also for instructions about the langauge.

HotDudeLife

jaxxx wrote: »

Oh ffs. Can all these SJWs (social justice warriors for those unaware of the abbreviation) do us all a favour and take a long leap off of a short pier (damn that's like the 5th time I've used that same hyperbole between yesterday/today). You don't learn from past mistakes by burying your head in the sand or pretending it never existed. What's next, gonna remove anything from the History syllabus that depicts racism, violence, etc??

The world has completely lost the f*cking plot altogether.. .. .. Common sense isn't so common anymore!

Plenty of racists on here today i see

FunLover18

jaxxx wrote: »

Oh ffs. Can all these SJWs (social justice warriors for those unaware of the abbreviation) do us all a favour and take a long leap off of a short pier (damn that's like the 5th time I've used that same hyperbole between yesterday/today). You don't learn from past mistakes by burying your head in the sand or pretending it never existed. What's next, gonna remove anything from the History syllabus that depicts racism, violence, etc??

The world has completely lost the f*cking plot altogether.. .. .. Common sense isn't so common anymore!

Did you read the article?

Others who contacted the minster also suggested that the Junior and Leaving Certificate curricula should be updated to include more voices and experiences of people of colour.

One person suggested the minister should add Why I Am No Longer Talking To White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge and The Good Immigrant by Nikesh Shukla to the syllabus, as they felt this would help to diversify the English curriculum.

There were additional calls for the inclusion of more poets of colour, works by Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichi, and the inclusion of more black history on the History curriculum.

Dravokivich

Eric Cartman wrote: »

1984 and animal farm should be mandatory reading in schools with any teacher trying to dress them up as anything beyond a warning against the dangers of government interference and the horrors of communism removed from teaching immediately.

Haven't read animal farm yet, but 1984 isn't really much use at all. I don't get why people keep on pointing to it. The characters only purpose in the "story" is to ultimately prime you to be lectured by the original agenda of the parties purpose and how it was swayed over time to a tiered social ladder. The only people that find anything enlightening about it, are those who don't understand what happened in the run up to WW2.

So why should a fictional political piece, heavily inspired by historical events, be topical for English Comprehension?

jaxxx

HotDudeLife wrote: »

Plenty of racists on here today i see

And you're basing this on.. .. .. what exactly? Should we forget about the Holocaust as well while we're at it? WW2 in its entirety perhaps? Nothing is achieved by sweeping things under the rug and forgetting about them.

TomTomTim

HotDudeLife wrote: »

Plenty of racists on here today i see

You types get more ridiculous by the day. You're literally just throwing around accusations with zero evidence.

paw patrol

BobbyMalone wrote: »

This is deeply ironic coming from someone who champions Orwell.

not really, people who purposely twist things to suit their agenda have no business in schools teaching the young....conveniently brings me to the fact (former) teacher, professional SJW and the most useless politician in Ireland Aodhan O Riordan wants the books removed

Keeping 'To Kill A Mockingbird' and 'Of Mice and Men' on the JC syllabus isn't worth the hurt they are causing. Dept should see sense here.

I have no idea what novels are being studied these days but the Junior Cert curriculum would be a lot poorer without To Kill A Mockingbird. A tremendous novel.


Is 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time' still on the syllabus?

History Queen

Gatling wrote: »

I'm surprised we haven't seen Tupac and jay-z been mentioned for the curriculum

Funny you say that, Tupac's "the rose that grew from concrete" is frequently studied at JC level.

In my opinion people should fully inform these of the issue before pontificating (not aimed at above poster). Firstly to kill a mockingbird is not a compulsory text, it appears on a list of possible texts to study. Teachers can avoid teaching it if they feel it wouldn't suit their particular class, as they can with any of the novels on the course. If you are forever going to sanatise and manage the student experience they'll never mature. Controversial issues in literature provide learning opportunities. Denying historic issues and avoiding difficult themes denies students learning opportunities.

Teachers are well used to using their professional judgement around these matters. A few years ago I had planned on doing Noughts and Crosses with my class, however because a child in my clads had very recently lost a parent to suicide in a similar way to one referenced in the book, I chose to do a different novel instead.

In another class while teaching To Kill a Mockingbird I was made aware of a student who had been raped, I rang the parent and explained that we had begun the novel before I was aware of this and asked the parent for their advice. parent was happy that once student knew the topic was coming up they were ok to stay in class but would ask to be excused if necessary. Surely open communication and education rather than censorship is the way to go?

History Queen

FunLover18 wrote: »

Did you read the article?

Maya angelou is studied at Junior Cycle level

FunLover18

History Queen wrote: »

Funny you say that, Tupac's "the rose that grew from concrete" is frequently studied at JC level.

In my opinion people should fully inform these of the issue before pontificating (not aimed at above poster). Firstly to kill a mockingbird is not a compulsory text, it appears on a list of possible texts to study. Teachers can avoid teaching it if they feel it wouldn't suit their particular class, as they can with any of the novels on the course. If you are forever going to sanatise and manage the student experience they'll never mature. Controversial issues in literature provide learning opportunities. Denying historic issues and avoiding difficult themes denies students learning opportunities.

Teachers are well used to using their professional judgement around these matters. A few years ago I had planned on doing Noughts and Crosses with my class, however because a child in my clads had very recently lost a parent to suicide in a similar way to one referenced in the book, I chose to do a different novel instead.

In another class while teaching To Kill a Mockingbird I was made aware of a student who had been raped, I rang the parent and explained that we had begun the novel before I was aware of this and asked the parent for their advice. parent was happy that once student knew the topic was coming up they were ok to stay in class but would ask to be excused if necessary. Surely open communication and education rather than censorship is the way to go?

I agree with a lot of what you've said and in an ideal world every teacher would be as considerate and thoughtful as you. As with a lot of these threads, nuance gets thrown out the window and you either fall on one side or the other. I think what makes me most uncomfortable is the idea of mainly white people dismissing the concerns of the people who would be the target of any bullying or harassment that arose from studying this book which is undoubtedly anti-racist. Of course the headline as well is designed to stir up exactly the kind of discussion this thread has devolved into.

History Queen

FunLover18 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you've said and in an ideal world every teacher would be as considerate and thoughtful as you. As with a lot of these threads, nuance gets thrown out the window and you either fall on one side or the other. I think what makes me most uncomfortable is the idea of mainly white people dismissing the concerns of the people who would be the target of any bullying or harassment that arose from studying this book which is undoubtedly anti-racist. Of course the headline as well is designed to stir up exactly the kind of discussion this thread has devolved into.

You make a good point re nuance. As regards bullying and harassment. Bullying is abhorrent and should be dealt with immediately and robustly. The blame for bullying and harassment lies with the instigator though, not with the novel. Throwing out a novel because a bully might use it as a tool to hurt others is akin to telling a kid to change their hairstyle or hobby or mannerisms to make them less of a target for bullys, it doesn't work. Bullys will always find something to pick at, the only solution us a zero tolerance policy for that sort of behaviour not a deflection of blame or finding excuses such as classic pieces of literature encouraged them to do it.

is_that_so

Dravokivich wrote: »

Haven't read animal farm yet, but 1984 isn't really much use at all. I don't get why people keep on pointing to it. The characters only purpose in the "story" is to ultimately prime you to be lectured by the original agenda of the parties purpose and how it was swayed over time to a tiered social ladder. The only people that find anything enlightening about it, are those who don't understand what happened in the run up to WW2.

So why should a fictional political piece, heavily inspired by historical events, be topical for English Comprehension?

Two of the main themes of 1984 are mass surveillance, and repressive regimentation of all persons and behaviours within society. Sounds similar to some parts of our own society to me!

jimgoose

Well I reckon it's so Mars' Tom, but I's pow'ful 'fraid ole Missis.

FunLover18

History Queen wrote: »

You make a good point re nuance. As regards bullying and harassment. Bullying is abhorrent and should be dealt with immediately and robustly. The blame for bullying and harassment lies with the instigator though, not with the novel. Throwing out a novel because a bully might use it as a tool to hurt others is akin to telling a kid to change their hairstyle or hobby or mannerisms to make them less of a target for bullys, it doesn't work. Bullys will always find something to pick at, the only solution us a zero tolerance policy for that sort of behaviour not a deflection of blame or finding excuses such as classic pieces of literature encouraged them to do it.

I agree that bullies will be bullies but I don't think this is about stopping bullying but more about limiting the opportunity. Like at the moment from the article I'm hearing on one side kids who are getting upset and worries at hearing these words and on the other side mainly white people saying "ahh censorship" (and I'm not aiming that at you at all) so I guess I'm finding it easier to side with the people who are actually being affected whereas if the book is removed from the curriculum I fail to see a downside except a hypothetical escalation. As in the article there are also suggestions for other books that tackle racism (none of which I have read so I can't arrest to there quality).

History Queen

FunLover18 wrote: »

I agree that bullies will be bullies but I don't think this is about stopping bullying but more about limiting the opportunity. Like at the moment from the article I'm hearing on one side kids who are getting upset and worries at hearing these words and on the other side mainly white people saying "ahh censorship" (and I'm not aiming that at you at all) so I guess I'm finding it easier to side with the people who are actually being affected whereas if the book is removed from the curriculum I fail to see a downside except a hypothetical escalation. As in the article there are also suggestions for other books that tackle racism (none of which I have read so I can't arrest to there quality).

But if you are to continue down that rabbit hole of "limiting the opportunity to bully" where do we stop? Don't teach WW2 or novels with references to it with Jewish children in class? Don't teach any novel with an insulting reference for fear it os used by bullies? Don't teach the Irish War of Independence in case English students are picked on? Don't teach "The Troubles" in case Catholics/Protestants are targeted? I could go on and on....

Bullying is an independent issue. Racism and Harrasment should be dealt with head on not excused by suggesting that somehow a book or reference in a text made it happen. Sanitising our classrooms will damage our students. Please don't do it. By all means, if our teaching methodologies are causing the issue, retrain us as teachers. If anti-bullying policies aren't being implemented challenge our schools. But don't move towards censorship, knowledge and education are intrinsically linked. Hiding from an issue is to deny its existance. This will not solve the problem.

FunLover18

History Queen wrote: »

But if you are to continue down that rabbit hole of "limiting the opportunity to bully" where do we stop? Don't teach WW2 or novels with references to it with Jewish children in class? Don't teach any novel with an insulting reference for fear it os used by bullies? Don't teach the Irish War of Independence in case English students are picked on? Don't teach "The Troubles" in case Catholics/Protestants are targeted? I could go on and on....

Bullying is an independent issue. Racism and Harrasment should be dealt with head on not excused by suggesting that somehow a book or reference in a text made it happen. Sanitising our classrooms will damage our students. Please don't do it. By all means, if our teaching methodologies are causing the issue, retrain us as teachers. If anti-bullying policies aren't being implemented challenge our schools. But don't move towards censorship, knowledge and education are intrinsically linked. Hiding from an issue is to deny its existance. This will not solve the problem.

I absolutely wouldn't want any of that but I think some of the examples you use are a bit extreme and as pointed out the issue isn't that the book tackles racism, my understanding is that it's because it uses specific slurs and listen I know kids are going to be exposed to those slurs, we unfortunately can't erase them from culture but do they have to be taught and read aloud in the classroom? You can address racism and not use racist language, I don't think anyone is advocating that racism not be addressed in schools. As I said I haven't read the suggested alternatives but given they were suggested by the complainants, I'm assuming the use of racial slurs is non existent or much more limited than it is in TKAMB.

HotDudeLife

TomTomTim wrote: »

You types get more ridiculous by the day. You're literally just throwing around accusations with zero evidence.

Evidence? The amount of passive aggressive sheer racist comments here is unreal. It's on par with 4chan

TomTomTim

HotDudeLife wrote: »

Evidence? The amount of passive aggressive sheer racist comments here is unreal. It's on par with 4chan

I'll humor you. Show me some examples of these passive aggressive racist comments? Posts like yours remind me of the classic thread on boards, that was pinned by the moderators, warning about misogyny on boards. When people asked for proof, there was little given, with most of the supporters of the narrative replying with things like: "it's in the air", "there's a sense of it", "I can feel it". It's a very cheap tactic used by people who can't support their assertions.

History Queen

FunLover18 wrote: »

I absolutely wouldn't want any of that but I think some of the examples you use are a bit extreme and as pointed out the issue isn't that the book tackles racism, my understanding is that it's because it uses specific slurs and listen I know kids are going to be exposed to those slurs, we unfortunately can't erase them from culture but do they have to be taught and read aloud in the classroom? You can address racism and not use racist language, I don't think anyone is advocating that racism not be addressed in schools. As I said I haven't read the suggested alternatives but given they were suggested by the complainants, I'm assuming the use of racial slurs is non existent or much more limited than it is in TKAMB.

The words aren't taught in the classroom. I would argue that not a single child has got to Junior Cert age 14/15 without already having heard these words. We as teachers tackle the issue head on and explain why the words are hurtful and shouldn't be used.

HotDudeLife

TomTomTim wrote: »

I'll humor you. Show me some examples of these passive aggressive racist comments? Posts like yours remind me of the classic thread on boards, that was pinned by the moderators, warning about misogyny on boards. When people asked for proof, there was little given, with most of the supporters of the narrative replying with things like: "it's in the air", "there's a sense of it", "I can feel it". It's a very cheap tactic used by people who can't support their assertions.

Are you a mod?



No


I've seen countless racist undertones if you can't see it you are blind mate

FunLover18

History Queen wrote: »

The words aren't taught in the classroom. I would argue that not a single child has got to Junior Cert age 14/15 without already having heard these words. We as teachers tackle the issue head on and explain why the words are hurtful and shouldn't be used.

Genuine question, you seem like a very considerate and sensible teacher from previous posts, would you choose to study To Kill A Mockingbird if there was a black student in your class, would you consult the parents as you did with the victim of sexual assault. As I said I'm genuinely curious I'm not trying to catch you out, it may even be an issue you've already had to deal with.

History Queen

FunLover18 wrote: »

Genuine question, you seem like a very considerate and sensible teacher from previous posts, would you choose to study To Kill A Mockingbird if there was a black student in your class, would you consult the parents as you did with the victim of sexual assault. As I said I'm genuinely curious I'm not trying to catch you out, it may even be an issue you've already had to deal with.

Yes I have done. Now full disclosure parent was a teacher in my school so not the same as contacting a parent i don't know but i did have the conversation. I'd do so in future no problem.

Mulberrytree

History Queen wrote: »

Yes I have done. Now full disclosure parent was a teacher in my school so not the same as contacting a parent i don't know but i did have the conversation. I'd do so in future no problem.

I'm a black parent with a child who wrote the JC two years ago. I'm glad there are teachers approaching this with sensitivity.

Our own teacher (class with 4 students of colour) was not as understanding. My child came home with a friend really angry one day because they'd been made to read aloud from Tkmb and they had expressed how uncomfortable it made them feel, but got a response about how it's in the novel, its historic, it's not directed at anyone etc. Child and friend were dreadfully upset. Of course other students looked directly at them during reading, they felt put upon, singled out.

Completely tone deaf teacher and by all accounts was intimidated by the subject matter.

I wrote in to the department. I've looked through the text list and was heartened to see Achebe, SE Hinton and films like Hotel Rwanda and Wadjda on the list. I'd be very shocked if there are classrooms discussing things fall apart though.

I'm not sure if it's a question of teachers selecting the easiest books to teach for grades or for classroom understanding.

While I like what's on the text list, the issue for many of us who wrote in is there could be an expansion of voices of colour if the subject is racial prejudice. The fact is that Tkmb is not written from the view point of tom Robinson. It's a child's view of learning through her father.
Things fall apart for example isn't a book about racial prejudice and colonialism, rather it's a book about cultural conflict and the arrogance inflexibility and really poor parental skills that lead to an at odds generational gap and failure to grasp the changing world. I wonder would children raised in Ireland understand it? I studied it in school and for all it's simplicity it's a hard book in many ways.

My own suggestions were The bluest eye by Toni Morrison, Go Tell it on the mountain by James Baldwin, Follow the rabbit proof fence by Doris Pilkington and Mine Boy by Peter Abrahams. Books across continents and told from the point of view of those affected by prejudice. All of these are studied texts in other countries. So while there is derogatory language, a teacher, reviewing these may discuss with the class how the affected person is telling their story. There is no third party voicing this for them. I also put in How to write about Africa by Binyavanga Wainaina, simply because this powerful piece is relevant for the many children of black heritage who are if African heritage in this country, rather than American heritage and if it gets both teachers and students talking, then it's done it's work

So, really, for many of us writing in to the department, it wasn't about removing the books, but about adding voices as a more authentic alternative. By the way, Tkmb was also on my curriculum years ago but we could choose our books. I don't think anyone did.

History Queen

Mulberrytree wrote: »

I'm a black parent with a child who wrote the JC two years ago. I'm glad there are teachers approaching this with sensitivity.

Our own teacher (class with 4 students of colour) was not as understanding. My child came home with a friend really angry one day because they'd been made to read aloud from Tkmb and they had expressed how uncomfortable it made them feel, but got a response about how it's in the novel, its historic, it's not directed at anyone etc. Child and friend were dreadfully upset. Of course other students looked directly at them during reading, they felt put upon, singled out.

Completely tone deaf teacher and by all accounts was intimidated by the subject matter.

I wrote in to the department. I've looked through the text list and was heartened to see Achebe, SE Hinton and films like Hotel Rwanda and Wadjda on the list. I'd be very shocked if there are classrooms discussing things fall apart though.

I'm not sure if it's a question of teachers selecting the easiest books to teach for grades or for classroom understanding.

While I like what's on the text list, the issue for many of us who wrote in is there could be an expansion of voices of colour if the subject is racial prejudice. The fact is that Tkmb is not written from the view point of tom Robinson. It's a child's view of learning through her father.
Things fall apart for example isn't a book about racial prejudice and colonialism, rather it's a book about cultural conflict and the arrogance inflexibility and really poor parental skills that lead to an at odds generational gap and failure to grasp the changing world. I wonder would children raised in Ireland understand it? I studied it in school and for all it's simplicity it's a hard book in many ways.

My own suggestions were The bluest eye by Toni Morrison, Go Tell it on the mountain by James Baldwin, Follow the rabbit proof fence by Doris Pilkington and Mine Boy by Peter Abrahams. Books across continents and told from the point of view of those affected by prejudice. All of these are studied texts in other countries. So while there is derogatory language, a teacher, reviewing these may discuss with the class how the affected person is telling their story. There is no third party voicing this for them. I also put in How to write about Africa by Binyavanga Wainaina, simply because this powerful piece is relevant for the many children of black heritage who are if African heritage in this country, rather than American heritage and if it gets both teachers and students talking, then it's done it's work

So, really, for many of us writing in to the department, it wasn't about removing the books, but about adding voices as a more authentic alternative. By the way, Tkmb was also on my curriculum years ago but we could choose our books. I don't think anyone did.

So sorry your child had that experience. I found your post really insightful and think that type of voice of inclusion is what is missinh from the debate. As a previous poster said, nuance is needed. It isn't a straightforward issue. For my own teaching going forward, would you mind saying if my approach as outlined in my previous post is adequate? I'd hate to think I made students feel uncomfortable. Generally I look for volunteers to read and listen to students if they express discomfort.

BobbyMalone

paw patrol wrote: »

not really, people who purposely twist things to suit their agenda have no business in schools teaching the young....conveniently brings me to the fact (former) teacher, professional SJW and the most useless politician in Ireland Aodhan O Riordan wants the books removed

It is ironic, as the poster wants the teachers to be dismissed if they don't teach a particular understanding of the text ... one might say that's a bit Orwellian, so really it's a good textbook definition of irony.

TheBlackPill

I take it that Jonathan Swift and James Joyce will be back on the syllabus at some stage?

Mulberrytree

History Queen wrote: »

So sorry your child had that experience. I found your post really insightful and think that type of voice of inclusion is what is missinh from the debate. As a previous poster said, nuance is needed. It isn't a straightforward issue. For my own teaching going forward, would you mind saying if my approach as outlined in my previous post is adequate? I'd hate to think I made students feel uncomfortable. Generally I look for volunteers to read and listen to students if they express discomfort.

Yes - absolutely, your approach is fantastic and very thoughtful of your students.

The children themselves will already know what they'll be reading. Some parents may not be familiar with the subject matter. May take offense at certain words maybe without knowing context if English isn't a first language. Some parents may be perfectly fine about it. Others may want a note sent to the year that this is what well be covering, some students may be uncomfortable but this is how well approach it etc... personal preference is the latter, because it's also including parents of children without non Irish heritage and there may be parents of adopted non Irish children who may also like to know. It also let's everyone have a chance to say something or maybe ask for a different book and doesn't single out the minorities as the obvious reason for a discussion.

I like to think a good teacher will (To the extent you can get teen-agers talking!) try to get a classroom discussion going that talks about pejoratives and derogatory words in general and how much power to abuse they have in a wider conversation about prejudice. Which is why it's important that available texts from voices that have experienced this is also important. Hence the requested inclusion of other books.