Guinness Pro12 Season 2020-2021

Digifriendly

But when will S. African sides join? If half way through the present season this will make the Pro 14 laughable will it not? How many points will they start with?

thomond2006

Digifriendly wrote: »

But when will S. African sides join? If half way through the present season this will make the Pro 14 laughable will it not? How many points will they start with?

I imagine at this stage if a January start was going to happen it would have been announced by now. A start for the 2021/22 season is likely.

I hate to double down on the negativity, but I think the present season is laughable already...

sydthebeat

Digifriendly wrote: »

But when will S. African sides join? If half way through the present season this will make the Pro 14 laughable will it not? How many points will they start with?

South Africa is still being hit extremely hard by covid.

sharks v stormers this weekend is cancelled, in the last weekend of games.
That means 3 fixtures during 'super rugby unlocked' has been covid cancelled.

i cannot see Pro14 allowing the SA sides in when theres a real risk to reorganised games being cancelled.

connachta

sydthebeat wrote: »

South Africa is still being hit extremely hard by covid.

sharks v stormers this weekend is cancelled, in the last weekend of games.
That means 3 fixtures during 'super rugby unlocked' has been covid cancelled.

i cannot see Pro14 allowing the SA sides in when theres a real risk to reorganised games being cancelled.

Let's have our home and away Pro12 this season, and integrate the Saffers without harm in September, with vaccinated players.

awec

bilston wrote: »

Not sure if you really mean that! But if true you are missing some very impressive rugby from Ulster

Genuinely haven't watched it. The Monday's haven't helped, but haven't been arsed to be missing them.

Used to watch it every week without fail.

While it's good to hear Ulster play some good stuff, excitement is dampened when you consider the absolute dross they are beating.

Digifriendly

awec wrote: »

Genuinely haven't watched it. The Monday's haven't helped, but haven't been arsed to be missing them.

Used to watch it every week without fail.

While it's good to hear Ulster play some good stuff, excitement is dampened when you consider the absolute dross they are beating.

I watch it and have been a season ticket holder with Ulster for a number of years but tbh I'm losing interest and I have to say when things get back to 'normal' I am seriously thinking of only going to the odd game. I guess there are others like me.

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster's average margin of victory so far this season is 28 points. That includes TBP wins away to Ospreys and Glasgow who are the closest challengers to Ulster and Leinster. Unless you're a Leinster fan I don't see the reason to watch. It's been a weekly training run.

I think most teams are in and around where they usually are bar these three.

Leinster are now a phenomenal organisation and have improved even when you thought they couldn't improve anymore.

Ospreys have just fallen apart completely over the last few years. It's amazing to think they've already matched the amount of Pro14 games they won last season with the two they've won this season.

Glasgow were competing to win the comp but won't be this season either.

So one team has gotten better and two of the should be competitors have gotten worse.

The Pro14's problem is that it has too many crap, poor, or average teams. So losing two good teams has a big affect on the league.

Most other leagues have one or maybe two crap teams but we've Zebre, Dragons, and Treviso or Kings.

Then you've Connacht, Cardiff, Edinburgh, and Lanelli as mid table to ok.

The league still has it's good teams in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster who will compete in both it and Europe.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think most teams are in and around where they usually are bar these three.

Leinster are now a phenomenal organisation and have improved even when you thought they couldn't improve anymore.

Ospreys have just fallen apart completely over the last few years. It's amazing to think they've already matched the amount of Pro14 games they won last season with the two they've won this season.

Glasgow were competing to win the comp but won't be this season either.

So one team has gotten better and two of the should be competitors have gotten worse.

The Pro14's problem is that it has too many crap, poor, or average teams. So losing two good teams has a big affect on the league.

Most other leagues have one or maybe two crap teams but we've Zebre, Dragons, and Treviso or Kings.

Then you've Connacht, Cardiff, Edinburgh, and Lanelli as mid table to ok.

The league still has it's good teams in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster who will compete in both it and Europe.

The issue seems to be, not that there aren't good sides in the Pro14, the issue is they all come from one country.

I still think that a fully stocked Edinburgh side can be competitive. Glasgow have lost too many players and the Welsh sides are just lost at this stage. Benetton may be a tough nut with all their players back, but still won't be at the level of Leinster, Ulster and Munster.

CatFromHue

Yeah that's it.

It just it wasn't always that way.

Ospreys have won it 4 times, I can't see them winning it again for a long time.

Utah_Saint

The problem is weakened teams continuing to play during international windows. Should it not be like soccer where club games are stopped?
I've always been an advocate for fewer games of higher quality. Almost like an NFL style season

The Lost Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think most teams are in and around where they usually are bar these three.

Leinster are now a phenomenal organisation and have improved even when you thought they couldn't improve anymore.

Ospreys have just fallen apart completely over the last few years. It's amazing to think they've already matched the amount of Pro14 games they won last season with the two they've won this season.

Glasgow were competing to win the comp but won't be this season either.

So one team has gotten better and two of the should be competitors have gotten worse.

The Pro14's problem is that it has too many crap, poor, or average teams. So losing two good teams has a big affect on the league.

Most other leagues have one or maybe two crap teams but we've Zebre, Dragons, and Treviso or Kings.

Then you've Connacht, Cardiff, Edinburgh, and Lanelli as mid table to ok.

The league still has it's good teams in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster who will compete in both it and Europe.

We have 5 countries in Pro14 so its always going to be different to the one nation leagues. Now if all the south africans join and we could keep all 14 of existing sides and maybe find another couple of sides we could create a second division and then you can counter the number of average teams....

Utah_Saint wrote: »

The problem is weakened teams continuing to play during international windows. Should it not be like soccer where club games are stopped?
I've always been an advocate for fewer games of higher quality. Almost like an NFL style season

Soccer can get loads of games mid week and teams can quite comfortably play wednesday/saturday/wednesday/saturday for quite some time. rugby cant.
We dont have the interest in the teams to support an NFL style season.

UAEguy2020

What you are seeing in the pro14 is what you have seen in all the other leagues in Europe, teams having a succesful time but falling away because their model of success is unsustainable. The Irish provinces have a very organic and sustainable model which helps them to keep their standards high no matter who's out of the squad.

The closest was Glasgow but even now their model is starting to fail them and it will take something big for them to get back to the heights they were at previously.

You see it in the GP with Exeter and (Until they were caught with their fingers in the til) Saracens, every other team has had afew decent seasons and then fall away

In France you get the likes of La Rochelle and Clermont (2018 was a write off for them because their injury situation was nothing short of incredible) and now that they finally got their **** in order Toulouse.

thomond2006

We can talk about models etc but we have a financial and geographical advantage over Wales and Scotland.

UAEguy2020

thomond2006 wrote: »

We can talk about models etc but we have a financial and geographical advantage over Wales and Scotland.

I’m not sure what you mean about geography in this instance.

I agree about the money side of it but it’s one thing having money it’s another thing using it in the right areas, if it was down to money the France clubs would dominate Europe every season.

thomond2006

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I’m not sure what you mean about geography in this instance.

I agree about the money side of it but it’s one thing having money it’s another thing using it in the right areas, if it was down to money the France clubs would dominate Europe every season.

Scotland and Wales based players can in some cases move to an English club without moving home.

UAEguy2020

thomond2006 wrote: »

Scotland and Wales based players can in some cases move to an English club without moving home.

Ah yes thats true to be fair, Wales you can basically spit into England and the Scots can all go to Newcastle etc.

Digifriendly

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We have 5 countries in Pro14 so its always going to be different to the one nation leagues. Now if all the south africans join and we could keep all 14 of existing sides and maybe find another couple of sides we could create a second division and then you can counter the number of average teams....

Soccer can get loads of games mid week and teams can quite comfortably play wednesday/saturday/wednesday/saturday for quite some time. rugby cant.
We dont have the interest in the teams to support an NFL style season.

If there was a seciond division surely crowds would be badly hit for the teams playing in it e.g. Dragons/Zebre etc?

The Lost Sheep

Digifriendly wrote: »

If there was a seciond division surely crowds would be badly hit for the teams playing in it e.g. Dragons/Zebre etc?

But what then. Do we continue with conferences? Cutting number of pro sides isnt a good thing. We need to expand the sport not keep cutting sides and the crowds at some of these sides are not exactly great at the moment so a second division where theyre more likely to be competitive/win games is better off than now

CatFromHue

I think we should be only expanding with teams who are competitive.

The Cheetahs were ok, the Kings were the worst team in the history of the competition.

connachta

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think we should be only expanding with teams who are competitive.

The Cheetahs were ok, the Kings were the worst team in the history of the competition.

Well there were some individualities, among backs, for King, who could have been valuable NIQ, but IRFU push provinces on trusting IQ crops on a 2nd chance-mission more then ever it seems (Wootton, Arnold, Gallagher, Kelleher, JJ, Madigan etc)

bilston

Digifriendly wrote: »

If there was a seciond division surely crowds would be badly hit for the teams playing in it e.g. Dragons/Zebre etc?

We might need a second division. The idea of Zebre or the Dragons travelling to play the Bulls in Pretoria isn't pretty!

Digifriendly

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But what then. Do we continue with conferences? Cutting number of pro sides isnt a good thing. We need to expand the sport not keep cutting sides and the crowds at some of these sides are not exactly great at the moment so a second division where theyre more likely to be competitive/win games is better off than now

See your point but I don't think Dragons, Zebre and the like wouldn't agree to this.

The Lost Sheep

Digifriendly wrote: »

See your point but I don't think Dragons, Zebre and the like wouldn't agree to this.

Yes but the extra south africans joining means we could lose sides from pro rugby and a second division means keeping them playing. The sport isnt big enough to just cut some of these sides and a second division would give many sides a chance of winning something they otherwise would never have

thomond2006

I wouldn't be against two tiers.

connachta

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wouldn't be against two tiers.

As any club-fan who is certain to spend 19 years out of 20 in tier 1


2nd tier is the end of all the 7-8 provinces who'll have several consecutive years in this dead competition.


That's just fulfilling some hidden dream (or nightmare) of Munster/Leinter/Ulster/Glasgow/Cardiff joining a big B&I league in 5 years, and the rest dying.
By using the Saffers as a short-term non-viable option to smoothly/perversely go to that

OldRio

Promotion and relegation between the two divisions would create real competition throughout the year.

BUT in all honesty what would you do to address the Problems of the various leagues.

awec

There isn't enough good teams to support a 2-tier ProWhatever league. The second tier would never be viable.

Buer

It's fictional. The other unions would walk away. If there were two divisions the top division would literally be the 3 top provinces, the 4 SA sides and an other team. Connacht could potentially be the other team.

If I called it as I see it right now, there would be a second division would be Edinburgh, Ospreys, Dragons, Scarlets, Treviso, Zebre, Connacht, Glasgow.

The league would be disbanded. Not a hope the Welsh teams would accept it.

Richie_Rich89

Aye, two tiers is a silly idea. There'd be no interest in it. Look at the Challenge Cup now, or the financial struggles of the English Championship.

It's pretty obvious what the format will be once the South Africans join - four conferences of four (Irish, Welsh, SA, Scots/Italians). Play in-conference H&A, and everyone else home or away. Then eight team play offs. Hopefully it'll be just one log, rather than top two from each conference making the play-offs.

AbusesToilets

Rather they just did home or away + playoffs. Keep double derbies maybe. Less games, and hopefully less conflict with international windows.

sydthebeat

Ospreys converted try at the death to beat Treviso at home

sioda

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ospreys converted try at the death to beat Treviso at home

Where was that game played looked like a back pitch and the TV coverage was like something from the 80s

sydthebeat

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Helen%27s_Rugby_and_Cricket_Ground

Swansea RFC home ground

connachta

Treviso is the less-gifted team I've seen

5 losses and only -49 (tight defeats every times)

when Zebre for exemple have for more points on the table with -148

Digifriendly

connachta wrote: »

Treviso is the less-gifted team I've seen

5 losses and only -49 (tight defeats every times)

when Zebre for exemple have for more points on the table with -148

Lack of strength in depth a major problem for both Italian teams. Fully loaded Treviso are a difficult side to beat but minus their international players they are a lot weaker than most other teams in the league. Zebre ran Scarlets close a couple of weeks ago but have now conceded over 100 points in their last 2 home games.

thomond2006

Scarlets seem to have woken up, which the league desperately needed.

Paul Smeenus

thomond2006 wrote: »

Scarlets seem to have woken up, which the league desperately needed.

I'd fully expect them to kick on from here. Munster and Ulster lucky to get them when they did.

Buer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'd fully expect them to kick on from here. Munster and Ulster lucky to get them when they did.

Hopefully they have a handy opponent next to allow them build momentum.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/DjRossouw87/status/1330838657570381824?s=19

Cookiemunster

March? How does that even work? You can't run off a season in 3 months. And then there's the small matter of the current season which you'd expect would have around 15/16 games played by then.

Just let them play each other again in March and start properly next September/October.

Dog Botherer

that’s both a very strange and a very optimistic start date.

Former Former Former

Presume the SA teams will form a conference of their own and maybe join in at play-off stage?

Don't see how else it can work.

Burkie1203

I think if Munster hold on, leinster are guaranteed a play-off place. Its November

Paul Smeenus

Dog Botherer wrote: »

that’s both a very strange and a very optimistic start date.

Presumably it's about this:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/south-africa-forced-to-go-cap-in-hand-to-world-rugby/

Dog Botherer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Presumably it's about this:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/south-africa-forced-to-go-cap-in-hand-to-world-rugby/

as always, follow the money.

i suppose if the Lions is to be viable SA are going to have to play some high tier club rugby at some point so the timeline fits. i just don’t see them having any kind of handle on the covid to where foreign teams are willing to risk travel to SA by then.

bilston

Cookiemunster wrote: »

March? How does that even work? You can't run off a season in 3 months. And then there's the small matter of the current season which you'd expect would have around 15/16 games played by then.

Just let them play each other again in March and start properly next September/October.

The season is a total mess...its literally being made up as we go along. I've some sympathy for the authorities as we obviously have the problem of Covid, but if anything they should be using this situation as an opportunity, but there are too many vested interests.

I still maintain a British and Irish league is the best way forward for the provinces, but failing that a Pro 16 will have to do. And it will be good to see the top South African players playing up here on a regular basis.

Blut2

On a purely selfish level I'd far rather popping down to Cape Town for a week in January/February for a few days of good wine, good food, good weather and a Leinster v Stormers game. Its a much more exciting proposition than a cold, grey, weekend in Leicester.

Cookiemunster

Bit easier/cheaper to get to Leicester though. Not many will be making trips to SA.

Blut2

You'd be surprised - 400euro for return flights if you time the booking well, 2euro pints, and dirt cheap everything else down there. A week there is doable for about 1000e if you're on a budget - not that much more than the 400eur or so doing a match weekend cheaply in the UK when you consider what you're getting for the money.

It mightn't be a common thing for student fans but I could definitely see SA trips becoming popular with mid 20s upwards guys who're working and have a bit more cash to spare.

AdamD

Blut2 wrote: »

You'd be surprised - 400euro for return flights if you time the booking well, 2euro pints, and dirt cheap everything else down there. A week there is doable for about 1000e if you're on a budget - not that much more than the 400eur or so doing a match weekend cheaply in the UK when you consider what you're getting for the money.

It mightn't be a common thing for student fans but I could definitely see SA trips becoming popular with mid 20s upwards guys who're working and have a bit more cash to spare.

It is an extremely long flight for just a week though, two weeks it is :pac: