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Waterford GAA Thread - Mod note post #1
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Have to say, I was worried for Kevin Moran and I keep writing him off but he hasn't been found wanting so far!0
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Limerick 0-25 Waterford 0-21
Analysing last Sunday’s Munster final is a fascinating exercise. Limerick went into the game, understandably, as hot favourites. They have an outstanding group of twenty or more hurlers and a highly-practised and effective game plan. They put a huge emphasis on gaining and keeping possession. They pack the midfield area, withdrawing their three half forwards and usually one of their corner forwards. They use these extra bodies and their physical power to gang-tackle the opposition when the latter have possession, yielding a high rate of turnovers. They love forcing rucks, as they usually win most of them.
Limerick also use their big men to win opposition puckouts, while most of their own puckouts are short. They then get their short-passing game in motion, designed to put players in space where they can have a long-distance shot at goal or else play ball into their very effective full forward line. They normally have Aaron Gillane and either Graeme Mulcahy or Peter Casey (and sometimes both) up front. Their passing game is designed to put an outfield player in space where he can look up to see exactly who is where up front before then sending in highly-practised balls designed to hop in front of the target player who can take the ball in hand and take on his marker virtually in the one movement.
Last Sunday, apart from puckouts and frees, Limerick played no less than 26 long balls into their full forward line, winning 13 of them (and fair due to the Waterford full backs for keeping the number down to this level). When they do get possession, they usually score, either directly or from frees after being fouled. One thing they did fail to do last Sunday – and this is again to the great credit of the full backs – was to ever threaten to score a goal. But between them they scored nine points, with a couple of converted frees added on.
Limerick’s short-passing game obviously generates a high possession count. Last Sunday, their first half possession count, at 102, was over twice Waterford’s 47. Yet, despite all this, by half time they were just three points ahead (0-14 to 0-11). And in the second half, Waterford greatly increased their work rate as the likes of Stephen Bennett, Jack Prendergast, Tadhg de Búrca, Callum Lyons and Shane McNulty thundered into the game. They almost doubled their possession count to 85, while Limerick’s fell to 93.
I have read two commentators who wrote that, having expended enormous amounts of energy containing Limerick, Waterford were burnt out in the closing stages. Nothing could be further from the truth. Waterford, in fact, dominated those stages territorially, laying siege to the Limerick goal. In the last eight minutes Waterford had 22 possessions to Limerick’s 16 (three of which were short passes immediately before the final whistle). With better decision-making and a bit of luck, they could have made the game go right down to the wire and could even have won it.
In particular, Waterford started looking for a goal a bit earlier than they needed to, and several good point chances went abegging as a result. Even then, they were unlucky not to get the goal that would really have set the cat among the pigeons. In the 68th minute, following an excellent passing movement, Neil Montgomery (who did very well when he came on) could well have got a penalty when gang-tackled inside the large quare. Even then, he was unlucky not to get off a pass to the unmarked Patrick Curran at the edge of the small square.
From the Limerick clearance, Stephen Bennett gained possession in midfield and was clearly fouled before getting off a shot which fell short. One minute later, Callum Lyons came charging in having taken a great pass from Bennett and was desperately unlucky that his intended pass to the unmarked Patrick Curran inside was brilliantly cut out by Limerick defender Seán Finn.
The thing is that Waterford came close to winning this game despite the fact that several of their players seriously underperformed. Much of the focus has been on Austin Gleeson who, apart from his three excellent points, obtained only one other possession. Kevin Moran was also very subdued, with just six possessions, two of which were very poor aimless balls which were easily mopped up by the Limerick defence. For several years Moran and Jamie Barron were probably the best midfield pairing in the country, and in my view Moran is much less effective in the half back line. In the presumed continued absence of Darragh Fives, I think there is a case for bringing Iarlaith Daly in at wing back and moving Moran back to midfield, where his strength and surging runs have been a major asset in the past.
Barron himself was well below his best, although he still got in a fair amount of good work. Jack Fagan was hardly in the game at all, with just two possessions. He is finding it difficult to get to the pace of championship hurling, and in my view would be more effective at full forward, in which position he first came to my notice when he was playing for Carlow IT. Kieran Bennett was also quiet, while Dessie Hutchinson also got hardly any of the kind of ball that the Limerick corner forwards were getting.
Ballygunner are like Limerick in the way they move the ball around to give outfield players the space and time to find Hutchinson to his best advantage. Unfortunately, Waterford do not have that style of play, and leaving Hutchinson on his own much of the time doesn’t help either.
On the other hand, there were some superb Waterford performers. This was Stephen Bennett’s best game in the county colours. He has flourished from being given a permanent and central role in the team by Liam Cahill, in contrast to the way he was marginalised by Derek McGrath (as pointed out here by Mastermcgrath). One wonders if Patrick Curran, an absolute genius of a scoring forward at underage level, might respond similarly if given the chance. His self-confidence was reduced to dust by McGrath. Jack Prendergast also produced a mighty performance, especially in the second half when he won eleven possessions (the same as Bennett).
Shane McNulty also gave a tremendous display. While I have always been an admirer of McNulty’s hurling ability, I would never have envisaged him as a corner back. Fair dues to Liam Cahill for seeing his potential for the left corner back berth, which made it easier for him to dispense with the services of Noel Connors. Tadhg de Búrca and Callum Lyons were Waterford’s other big performers on the day (we almost take that for granted now).
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Waterford could end up playing Limerick again in this championship, so it is useful to consider how they might improve their effectiveness in preparation for such a meeting. I would suggest, for a start, that Waterford should play the ball out from the back a bit more, for two reasons. Firstly, their current reliance on long puckouts is not working well. They won only 38% of their long puckouts against Limerick. This, actually, was much better than Limerick, who only won one of their eight long puckouts. The difference is that two thirds of Limerick’s puckouts were short, compared with less than one third of Waterford’s. Secondly, by working the ball out from the back, Waterford can put more ball in the hands of their powerful and strong-running half backs, either to bring the ball forward into midfield, or to send better directed ball into the full forward line.
As regards the latter, my feeling is that we need to keep two full forwards in place, with either Jack Fagan or Patrick Curran being used to keep Dessie Hutchinson company. This might reduce our ability to gain possession in the middle third, but this might be more than counterbalanced by offering a bigger scoring threat inside. And one thing we should never do against Limerick is run at them, as they are absolute masters as turning over possession in this situation.
We also need a new approach to taking sidelines, with the emphasis on keeping possession rather than hitting the ball as far as possible. Gearóid Hegarty is a master at just tapping sideline balls to his nearest team-mate who then taps it back to him, thereby setting him in motion. And you would have to ask what is the point in bringing Austin Gleeson deep into the Waterford half to take sidelines, when Tadhg de Búrca and Jamie Barron are equally good at taking them, and we could do with having one of our big players at the receiving end farther up the field.
Finally, a word about rucks, an increasingly frequent feature of modern hurling. Waterford did manage to win four of eleven rucks last Sunday, but perhaps a new approach is needed. We should end the preoccupation with getting the ball into hand in these situations, especially when it can be hard to do anything with it afterwards. I would recommend just kicking or flicking the ball in the general direction of the opposition goal, making sure that there is at least one Waterford player outside the ruck at that end to pick up, or at least compete for, the emerging ball. One thing that should be avoided is doing what Michael Breen did last Saturday, when he got a ruck ball in hand and then passed it blind back over his shoulder in the direction of his own goal. The ball broke to Patrick Horgan who ran 50 metres before burying the ball in the Tipperary net, thus cancelling three of the five points Breen scored at the other end of the field.
Waterford team (possession counts in brackets):
S O’Keeffe (1), S Fives (7), C Prunty (4), S McNulty (15), K Moran (6), T de Búrca (15), C Lyons (14), J Barron (10), K Bennett (6), J Prendergast (14), J Fagan (2), J Dillon (7), A Gleeson (4), S Bennett (14), D Hutchinson (4), N Montgomery (4), M Kearney (1), I Kenny (0), D Lyons (3), P Curran (1).0 -
^^ For the sake of readability, I won't quote all of the above, but awesome analysis as always, GIF.0
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Giveitfong wrote: »Limerick 0-25 Waterford 0-21
Analysing last Sunday’s Munster final is a fascinating exercise. Limerick went into the game, understandably, as hot favourites. They have an outstanding group of twenty or more hurlers and a highly-practised and effective game plan. They put a huge emphasis on gaining and keeping possession. They pack the midfield area, withdrawing their three half forwards and usually one of their corner forwards. They use these extra bodies and their physical power to gang-tackle the opposition when the latter have possession, yielding a high rate of turnovers. They love forcing rucks, as they usually win most of them.
Limerick also use their big men to win opposition puckouts, while most of their own puckouts are short. They then get their short-passing game in motion, designed to put players in space where they can have a long-distance shot at goal or else play ball into their very effective full forward line. They normally have Aaron Gillane and either Graeme Mulcahy or Peter Casey (and sometimes both) up front. Their passing game is designed to put an outfield player in space where he can look up to see exactly who is where up front before then sending in highly-practised balls designed to hop in front of the target player who can take the ball in hand and take on his marker virtually in the one movement.
Last Sunday, apart from puckouts and frees, Limerick played no less than 26 long balls into their full forward line, winning 13 of them (and fair due to the Waterford full backs for keeping the number down to this level). When they do get possession, they usually score, either directly or from frees after being fouled. One thing they did fail to do last Sunday – and this is again to the great credit of the full backs – was to ever threaten to score a goal. But between them they scored nine points, with a couple of converted frees added on.
Limerick’s short-passing game obviously generates a high possession count. Last Sunday, their first half possession count, at 102, was over twice Waterford’s 47. Yet, despite all this, by half time they were just three points ahead (0-14 to 0-11). And in the second half, Waterford greatly increased their work rate as the likes of Stephen Bennett, Jack Prendergast, Tadhg de Búrca, Callum Lyons and Shane McNulty thundered into the game. They almost doubled their possession count to 85, while Limerick’s fell to 93.
I have read two commentators who wrote that, having expended enormous amounts of energy containing Limerick, Waterford were burnt out in the closing stages. Nothing could be further from the truth. Waterford, in fact, dominated those stages territorially, laying siege to the Limerick goal. In the last eight minutes Waterford had 22 possessions to Limerick’s 16 (three of which were short passes immediately before the final whistle). With better decision-making and a bit of luck, they could have made the game go right down to the wire and could even have won it.
In particular, Waterford started looking for a goal a bit earlier than they needed to, and several good point chances went abegging as a result. Even then, they were unlucky not to get the goal that would really have set the cat among the pigeons. In the 68th minute, following an excellent passing movement, Neil Montgomery (who did very well when he came on) could well have got a penalty when gang-tackled inside the large quare. Even then, he was unlucky not to get off a pass to the unmarked Patrick Curran at the edge of the small square.
From the Limerick clearance, Stephen Bennett gained possession in midfield and was clearly fouled before getting off a shot which fell short. One minute later, Callum Lyons came charging in having taken a great pass from Bennett and was desperately unlucky that his intended pass to the unmarked Patrick Curran inside was brilliantly cut out by Limerick defender Seán Finn.
The thing is that Waterford came close to winning this game despite the fact that several of their players seriously underperformed. Much of the focus has been on Austin Gleeson who, apart from his three excellent points, obtained only one other possession. Kevin Moran was also very subdued, with just six possessions, two of which were very poor aimless balls which were easily mopped up by the Limerick defence. For several years Moran and Jamie Barron were probably the best midfield pairing in the country, and in my view Moran is much less effective in the half back line. In the presumed continued absence of Darragh Fives, I think there is a case for bringing Iarlaith Daly in at wing back and moving Moran back to midfield, where his strength and surging runs have been a major asset in the past.
Barron himself was well below his best, although he still got in a fair amount of good work. Jack Fagan was hardly in the game at all, with just two possessions. He is finding it difficult to get to the pace of championship hurling, and in my view would be more effective at full forward, in which position he first came to my notice when he was playing for Carlow IT. Kieran Bennett was also quiet, while Dessie Hutchinson also got hardly any of the kind of ball that the Limerick corner forwards were getting.
Ballygunner are like Limerick in the way they move the ball around to give outfield players the space and time to find Hutchinson to his best advantage. Unfortunately, Waterford do not have that style of play, and leaving Hutchinson on his own much of the time doesn’t help either.
On the other hand, there were some superb Waterford performers. This was Stephen Bennett’s best game in the county colours. He has flourished from being given a permanent and central role in the team by Liam Cahill, in contrast to the way he was marginalised by Derek McGrath (as pointed out here by Mastermcgrath). One wonders if Patrick Curran, an absolute genius of a scoring forward at underage level, might respond similarly if given the chance. His self-confidence was reduced to dust by McGrath. Jack Prendergast also produced a mighty performance, especially in the second half when he won eleven possessions (the same as Bennett).
Shane McNulty also gave a tremendous display. While I have always been an admirer of McNulty’s hurling ability, I would never have envisaged him as a corner back. Fair dues to Liam Cahill for seeing his potential for the left corner back berth, which made it easier for him to dispense with the services of Noel Connors. Tadhg de Búrca and Callum Lyons were Waterford’s other big performers on the day (we almost take that for granted now).
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Waterford could end up playing Limerick again in this championship, so it is useful to consider how they might improve their effectiveness in preparation for such a meeting. I would suggest, for a start, that Waterford should play the ball out from the back a bit more, for two reasons. Firstly, their current reliance on long puckouts is not working well. They won only 38% of their long puckouts against Limerick. This, actually, was much better than Limerick, who only won one of their eight long puckouts. The difference is that two thirds of Limerick’s puckouts were short, compared with less than one third of Waterford’s. Secondly, by working the ball out from the back, Waterford can put more ball in the hands of their powerful and strong-running half backs, either to bring the ball forward into midfield, or to send better directed ball into the full forward line.
As regards the latter, my feeling is that we need to keep two full forwards in place, with either Jack Fagan or Patrick Curran being used to keep Dessie Hutchinson company. This might reduce our ability to gain possession in the middle third, but this might be more than counterbalanced by offering a bigger scoring threat inside. And one thing we should never do against Limerick is run at them, as they are absolute masters as turning over possession in this situation.
We also need a new approach to taking sidelines, with the emphasis on keeping possession rather than hitting the ball as far as possible. Gearóid Hegarty is a master at just tapping sideline balls to his nearest team-mate who then taps it back to him, thereby setting him in motion. And you would have to ask what is the point in bringing Austin Gleeson deep into the Waterford half to take sidelines, when Tadhg de Búrca and Jamie Barron are equally good at taking them, and we could do with having one of our big players at the receiving end farther up the field.
Finally, a word about rucks, an increasingly frequent feature of modern hurling. Waterford did manage to win four of eleven rucks last Sunday, but perhaps a new approach is needed. We should end the preoccupation with getting the ball into hand in these situations, especially when it can be hard to do anything with it afterwards. I would recommend just kicking or flicking the ball in the general direction of the opposition goal, making sure that there is at least one Waterford player outside the ruck at that end to pick up, or at least compete for, the emerging ball. One thing that should be avoided is doing what Michael Breen did last Saturday, when he got a ruck ball in hand and then passed it blind back over his shoulder in the direction of his own goal. The ball broke to Patrick Horgan who ran 50 metres before burying the ball in the Tipperary net, thus cancelling three of the five points Breen scored at the other end of the field.
Waterford team (possession counts in brackets):
S O’Keeffe (1), S Fives (7), C Prunty (4), S McNulty (15), K Moran (6), T de Búrca (15), C Lyons (14), J Barron (10), K Bennett (6), J Prendergast (14), J Fagan (2), J Dillon (7), A Gleeson (4), S Bennett (14), D Hutchinson (4), N Montgomery (4), M Kearney (1), I Kenny (0), D Lyons (3), P Curran (1).
Great analysis and insight. I took a few things from it but from 4 positions, to get 3 points is fair going from Aussie, I don’t know how but we have to try and get him more in the game and I don’t mean by landing high puckouts on him, we need him to be on more ball. Perhaps Limerick were just able to match his physical attributes, and he will be more involved on Saturday but if he picks off 3 points again, it’s a good contribution.
I don’t agree with the point of not running at Limerick, I think this is where they are at their weakest. The likes of Hannon and Byrnes are physically powerful and when ran at it, aren’t as dominating as they are when high ball is just landed on them to attack. They need to be turned and brought out in to open space so that they can’t back up each other and bottle up attackers which they are brilliant at. Hayes, while on plenty of ball, gave away a few frees and could be back at centre forward for a semi-final. I thought when the likes of Bennett ran at that Limerick defense, they done well to entice the contact and the foul or else broke through and looked dangerous.0 -
To be fair giveitfong from a limerick perspective you could argue we didn't play well either and did win but yes I agree totally I think with 5 minutes left I was fair worried, by the way I totally agree we might meet later again I fancy ye v Clare and if ye do get over them I feel ye can rattle kk0
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I do think running at the Limerick defence brought success for Waterford. The smaller Waterford players dipped into the larger Limerick men and got the frees. I think half of them weren't frees but the ref saw it different. Alot of players these days are looking for the high tackle . They do this by dipping into the defender and squeeze between the arm and body. There needs to be more awareness of players doing this. If you go into a tackle head down...you shouldn't get a high tackle free. Rugby is ahead on this.
Waterford have a great chance against Clare but I think Clard will win. Conlon is back in training and Shane O Donnell could hit form. Clare will always fancy their chances against Waterford like they did against Wexford even without Galvin, Duggan and Conlon. They ll be good. I think that Munster final took a serious physical toll on Waterford. It ll be tight. Whomever wins I wouldnt give them much of a chance the following week. Its just attritional. The stats from Rugby league playoffs in Australia show the teams with the longer break usually win.. I hope im wrong. Id love to see Waterford or Clare get to a final..preferably beating Kilkenny who have the added advantage of saying all their games in Croke Park.0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »I do think running at the Limerick defence brought success for Waterford. The smaller Waterford players dipped into the larger Limerick men and got the frees. I think half of them weren't frees but the ref saw it different. Alot of players these days are looking for the high tackle . They do this by dipping into the defender and squeeze between the arm and body. There needs to be more awareness of players doing this. If you go into a tackle head down...you shouldn't get a high tackle free. Rugby is ahead on this.
Waterford have a great chance against Clare but I think Clard will win. Conlon is back in training and Shane O Donnell could hit form. Clare will always fancy their chances against Waterford like they did against Wexford even without Galvin, Duggan and Conlon. They ll be good. I think that Munster final took a serious physical toll on Waterford. It ll be tight. Whomever wins I wouldnt give them much of a chance the following week. Its just attritional. The stats from Rugby league playoffs in Australia show the teams with the longer break usually win.. I hope im wrong. Id love to see Waterford or Clare get to a final..preferably beating Kilkenny who have the added advantage of saying all their games in Croke Park.
Comparing Rugby League Play-offs results in Australia to hurling??? Waterford need to beat Clare first. We will worry about winning the Australian Rugby League Grand Final after!0 -
Imagine there will be no changes to the team to be announced tonight, or is there any chance Fagan's place might be a bit under pressure from Patrick Curran?0
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Deskjockey wrote: »Imagine there will be no changes to the team to be announced tonight, or is there any chance Fagan's place might be a bit under pressure from Patrick Curran?
Fives !!0 -
whiteandblue wrote: »Comparing Rugby League Play-offs results in Australia to hurling??? Waterford need to beat Clare first. We will worry about winning the Australian Rugby League Grand Final after!
Off the wall comparison for sure.....why the Clare supporters feel the need to contribute to this thread is a bit puzzling....
Last season when the two team met there was a point in it from memory i.e. the game in Walsh Park. How many changes on both teams has there been since then....? 50/50 game Waterford can definitely win it but we are being told that the mental and physical ‘bruising’ from the game last weekend will take its toll and will result in a loss by 5/6 points.......in saying that who recalls the game v ‘ ‘da banner’ in 04.......Daly had just taken over as manager and they were highly fancied to steamroll Waterford who had just come off the back of a ‘mauling’ by Galway the previous week in the league final......what transpired was the exact opposite....Waterford ran riot something like 3-21 to 1-8......all pundits were left scratching their heads.....Dan shanahan was on fire and it signaled his inter county renaissance having spent the previous 3/4 years in the doldrums...who knows something similar could happen tomorrow with gleeson....???0 -
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Haven’t seen the team but believe there is one change {Ian Kenny}.0
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Happy to see Peter Hogan back on the match day panel.
All roads lead to PuC.0 -
A lot of lazy analysis in the media this week about Gleeson, saying that he’s a wasted talent and can’t find his position etc. Cahill on the other hand will be happy enough with what hes getting from him. Forget about building a team around him and finding a system to fit him. We have enough leaders in other areas of the field. Give him his position in the forwards, and he’s good enough to win his individual battle with any defender give you 3 or 4 points from play. If he chips in with a couple moments of magic (or madness) so be it. But Cahill has certainly nailed his way of getting good value out of him for the benefit of the team0
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To be fair giveitfong from a limerick perspective you could argue we didn't play well either and did win but yes I agree totally I think with 5 minutes left I was fair worried, by the way I totally agree we might meet later again I fancy ye v Clare and if ye do get over them I feel ye can rattle kk
I don't think I remember a game in the last 3 decades where the other team played well and we won
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Giveitfong wrote: »Limerick 0-25 Waterford 0-21
Analysing last Sunday’s Munster final is a fascinating exercise...
Great analysis, just one thing I'd differ with you on, I think Barron actually had an amazing match.0 -
Mastermcgrath wrote: »A lot of lazy analysis in the media this week about Gleeson, saying that he’s a wasted talent and can’t find his position etc. Cahill on the other hand will be happy enough with what hes getting from him. Forget about building a team around him and finding a system to fit him. We have enough leaders in other areas of the field. Give him his position in the forwards, and he’s good enough to win his individual battle with any defender give you 3 or 4 points from play. If he chips in with a couple moments of magic (or madness) so be it. But Cahill has certainly nailed his way of getting good value out of him for the benefit of the team
4 possessions... 3 scores last week
Some efficiency. Imagine if he had gotten the ball 5 more times0 -
Well, the day is upon us. Hopefully after last Sunday’s huge effort the lads still have plenty in the tank. In saying that, it’ll be Clare’s third week out in a row themselves (fourth in five weeks) so maybe that balances it out.
If we have someone to stick like glue to Tony Kelly (I’m thinking Ian Kenny or Callum Lyons) and Tadgh in close support we can hopefully keep him relatively quiet while doing enough damage at the other end. Get a bit more out of some of the lads that faded a bit in and out of the game last week and combine that with another savage work rate and I see us coming through by about 5pts.
The very best of luck to Liam and the lads today.
Up the Deise0 -
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I laughed out loud when he said Austin Gleeson should mark Tony Kelly. I don't know what Nicky English is on but I want some of it!0 -
I laughed out loud when he said Austin Gleeson should mark Tony Kelly. I don't know what Nicky English is on but I want some of it!
Yes you need a cool, level headed and disiplined defender, that's not going to get frustrated, just because a few early scores goes against him and stick to his task (and try and stay on the field it at'll possible)..... Sounds good to me ;-)
Also you take away what Austin is actually good out, that bit a flair and creativity if he gets going0 -
Squeaky bum time, let's hope the season doesnt end today.
please remember to light a candle tonight in remembrance of bloody Sunday.hopefully thats all its in mourning of.0 -
Come on Waterford0
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These water breaks need to be banned.0
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great goals by us but some carless stuff that cost us the lead after the water break
We need a strong start for the 2nd half and after that bloody water break0
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