Waterford GAA Thread - Mod note post #1

Giveitfong

PTH2009 wrote: »

He's not going to favour any team esp us with a Tipp manager

Don't be so sure. Waterford have a long history of suffering disproportionately from adverse decision-making on the part of Fergal Horgan. In the run-up to the 2017 All-Ireland, which he refereed, I posted the following here:

The first match I ever saw Fergal Horgan refereeing was the 2013 Munster minor hurling semi-final between Waterford and Cork in Páirc Uí Rinn. Early in the game Stephen Bennett knocked down a long ball into the Cork goalmouth and then sent a bullet to the net with a super strike on the half-volley. The ball was already in the net when Horgan blew up for a free. Not only did he not allow the advantage, but nobody knew what the free was for in the first place, as there was no opposing player near Bennett when he struck the ball. He missed the ensuing penalty.

As the second half drew to a close the public address announced at least one minute of additional time, with the scores level. In added time, a clearance from the Waterford defence found its way to the unmarked Conor Gleeson straight in front of the Cork posts, but just as he was about to shoot the lead point for Waterford, Horgan blew the full time whistle with just 45 seconds of additional time having elapsed on the electronic clock on the scoreboard. Thankfully Waterford won the game in extra time.

Horgan also refereed the Munster minor final against Limerick that year. With the game entering its closing stages and Waterford six points up, Horgan first awarded Limerick a dubious 20 metre free in front of the goal which Ronan Lynch struck to the net, and then allowed Tom Morrissey to take at least six full strides with the ball in hand before striking the equalising goal.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0C-ZV86dmE

In this year’s [2017] Munster under-21 semi-final [against Cork in Walsh Park] Horgan made a series of errors which went against Waterford. The worst was his failure to penalise the Cork player whose run earned the late penalty for catching the ball three times. He should also have allowed at least another minute of play after the penalty was converted [which put Cork one point ahead].

Horgan also awarded a mystery free against Shane Bennett in the first half which Cork converted but failed to give Bennett a free in the second half when he was clearly fouled twice near the Cork goal. He also failed to give Waterford a free in the first half when Bennett was taken out on the sideline in front of the stand.

In my report on the 2017 All-Ireland final posted here, I wrote that the real killer for Waterford was Horgan’s refereeing. I detailed nine fouls on Waterford players (most of them in scorable positions) which went unpunished. The worst of these was in the 60th minute when Gerry McInerney pulled Shane Fives by the arm in the midfield area, sending him to the ground. Instead of giving Waterford a scorable free, Horgan gave Galway a free against Shane Fives for overcarrying even though he had only taken one step with the ball before being brought to ground when he released the ball immediately. Joe Canning pointed the free. This was a double error by Fergal Horgan which gave Galway a point when it could have been a Waterford point i.e. a possible two point turnaround.

By contrast, I only noted one case where Galway did not get a free for a clear foul by a Waterford player. Galway were also awarded a couple of dubious frees which they converted.

I, for one, am not happy to see Horgan appointed to referee next Saturday’s game.

JD 60

JD 60 wrote: »

Didn’t do us any favours in 2017 final ; not my favourite referee and not just for that match.

Winners get experience,losers make excuses


We're good enough to turn over kk,irregardless of whom the ref is,it will come down to proper usage of the bench and taking our goal scoring chances

Deisegodeo

Christ... Fergal Horgan again

iebamm2580

make it a great year and beat that shower, if tipp cant humiliate them again, a Waterford team led by a tipp man will do nicely, best of luck.

Asdfgh2020

Deisegodeo wrote: »

Christ... Fergal Horgan again

The documentary on the 2017 final gave a good insight into Horgan’s reffing ‘style’

Mastermcgrath

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Winners get experience,losers make excuses


We're good enough to turn over kk,irregardless of whom the ref is,it will come down to proper usage of the bench and taking our goal scoring chances

Exactly. I can’t understand when people say he ref won’t do us any ‘favours’. A ref is not supposed to do favours, he’s supposed to ref the match

mountgomery burns

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Exactly. I can’t understand when people say he ref won’t do us any ‘favours’. A ref is not supposed to do favours, he’s supposed to ref the match

Yeah don't agree with this reaction. He was poor for that 21s game in 2017 alright but anyone thinks he's anti Waterford needs to get real.

He'll take away from the spectacle though, whistle happy.

ryan1990

Giveitfong wrote: »

Don't be so sure. Waterford have a long history of suffering disproportionately from adverse decision-making on the part of Fergal Horgan. In the run-up to the 2017 All-Ireland, which he refereed, I posted the following here:

The first match I ever saw Fergal Horgan refereeing was the 2013 Munster minor hurling semi-final between Waterford and Cork in Páirc Uí Rinn. Early in the game Stephen Bennett knocked down a long ball into the Cork goalmouth and then sent a bullet to the net with a super strike on the half-volley. The ball was already in the net when Horgan blew up for a free. Not only did he not allow the advantage, but nobody knew what the free was for in the first place, as there was no opposing player near Bennett when he struck the ball. He missed the ensuing penalty.

As the second half drew to a close the public address announced at least one minute of additional time, with the scores level. In added time, a clearance from the Waterford defence found its way to the unmarked Conor Gleeson straight in front of the Cork posts, but just as he was about to shoot the lead point for Waterford, Horgan blew the full time whistle with just 45 seconds of additional time having elapsed on the electronic clock on the scoreboard. Thankfully Waterford won the game in extra time.

Horgan also refereed the Munster minor final against Limerick that year. With the game entering its closing stages and Waterford six points up, Horgan first awarded Limerick a dubious 20 metre free in front of the goal which Ronan Lynch struck to the net, and then allowed Tom Morrissey to take at least six full strides with the ball in hand before striking the equalising goal.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0C-ZV86dmE

In this year’s [2017] Munster under-21 semi-final [against Cork in Walsh Park] Horgan made a series of errors which went against Waterford. The worst was his failure to penalise the Cork player whose run earned the late penalty for catching the ball three times. He should also have allowed at least another minute of play after the penalty was converted [which put Cork one point ahead].

Horgan also awarded a mystery free against Shane Bennett in the first half which Cork converted but failed to give Bennett a free in the second half when he was clearly fouled twice near the Cork goal. He also failed to give Waterford a free in the first half when Bennett was taken out on the sideline in front of the stand.

In my report on the 2017 All-Ireland final posted here, I wrote that the real killer for Waterford was Horgan’s refereeing. I detailed nine fouls on Waterford players (most of them in scorable positions) which went unpunished. The worst of these was in the 60th minute when Gerry McInerney pulled Shane Fives by the arm in the midfield area, sending him to the ground. Instead of giving Waterford a scorable free, Horgan gave Galway a free against Shane Fives for overcarrying even though he had only taken one step with the ball before being brought to ground when he released the ball immediately. Joe Canning pointed the free. This was a double error by Fergal Horgan which gave Galway a point when it could have been a Waterford point i.e. a possible two point turnaround.

By contrast, I only noted one case where Galway did not get a free for a clear foul by a Waterford player. Galway were also awarded a couple of dubious frees which they converted.

I, for one, am not happy to see Horgan appointed to referee next Saturday’s game.

Absolutely and to add to this - re the munster minor final in Limerick vs Limerick. The 21 yard free awarded to Limerick with 5 minutes remaining is still as mysterious as ever & Tom Morrissey actually took 11 steps (max 4 by letter of the law) before sticking the eqalising goal with the last puck of the game. Limerick won the replay.
Regarding the under 21 game vs Cork - Darragh Lyons tugged the Cork player's jersey for a split second (after the Cork player had caught the ball 3 times) outside the box. So even if he'd missed the 3 catches, it was a 21 yard free - not a penalty - which of course was the last puck of the game to give Cork the one point win, at a time when there was no backdoor/second chances in the under 21 championship.
Sent off TDB in the 2017 quarter final vs Wexford for an accidental collision on about the 40th minute - luckily didn't impact the game's result.
Beggars belief that he got the senior All Ireland final that year - and we all know what happened there.

Asdfgh2020

ryan1990 wrote: »

Absolutely and to add to this - re the munster minor final in Limerick vs Limerick. The 21 yard free awarded to Limerick with 5 minutes remaining is still as mysterious as ever & Tom Morrissey actually took 11 steps (max 4 by letter of the law) before sticking the eqalising goal with the last puck of the game. Limerick won the replay.
Regarding the under 21 game vs Cork - Darragh Lyons tugged the Cork player's jersey for a split second (after the Cork player had caught the ball 3 times) outside the box. So even if he'd missed the 3 catches, it was a 21 yard free - not a penalty - which of course was the last puck of the game tuo give Cork the one point win, at a time when there was no backdoor/second chances in the under 21 championship. Beggars belief that he got the senior All Ireland final that year - and we all know what happened there.

I’m sure kk fans will be able to produce similar examples of his inconsistencies/mistakes/apparent anti kk-ness......all we can hope for is that each side gets as many poor decisions as the other......being a Tipp man himself it might ‘tipp’ things In w’ford’s favour

Fred Daly

iebamm2580 wrote: »

make it a great year and beat that shower, if tipp cant humiliate them again, a Waterford team led by a tipp man will do nicely, best of luck.

Bitterness at its best the humiliaton we gave ye after M Rice injury 2012 semi final ranks up there the top .

deiseach

iebamm2580 wrote: »

make it a great year and beat that shower, if tipp cant humiliate them again, a Waterford team led by a tipp man will do nicely, best of luck.

Fred Daly wrote: »

Bitterness at its best the humiliaton we gave ye after M Rice injury 2012 semi final ranks up there the top .

whiteandblue

Looking ahead to the weekend's match, there is an unusual optimism among Waterford supporters in comparison to past encounters with a Leinster winning Kilkenny side. There is a trust in this side that they will perform, and if it's good enough, great but if not, we have now have a side that we know have given their all.

Perhaps Cahill's will and expectancy to win has rubbed off on us supporters and now there is a belief that this Waterford side will do anything, work harder than other team and back each other no matter what in defiance in order to win. Despite the defeat to Limerick, this Waterford side showed their eagerness to go until the very end, unwilling to accept what was in the end was defeat but left that pitch without the question that past teams had wondered: "What if we had really gone for it?" I'm not criticising any previous management team but I know as a supporter, I still look at previous days where we fell to defeat and ask that very question. I don't think we will be asking that come Sunday evening.

This Waterford team looked sharp last Saturday evening & we definitely seen improvements on the Limerick performance. I actually believe the Limerick performance was much superior the match winning display against Cork in which we were exceptionally wasteful. The Limerick match seen us improve on facets of our play but we still had areas to improve such as our own puckouts and the quality of ball into our forwards. There's no denying that we played an inferior team to Limerick in Clare last weekend but the puckouts were definitely more accurate, strategic and successful while the supply of ball and space created for our inside line was again a massive improvement on the Munster Final defeat. Is this because SOK wasn't hitting ball down on Byrnes, Hannon & Hayes with support from Lynch & co or because of an improvement in the strategy and player performance? Was the ball into our forwards better because Clare's centre back didn't sit as deep and the pressure on the players delivering the ball wasn't as intense? Or was it that Cahill & Bevans are learning with every game and applying strategies to get the best out of the players we have?

Game on game, I think we are seeing improvements. If you look at Cahill's management of Tipperary under 21's, they lost out in Munster final, quite comprehensively yet when it came to later in the campaign, they had learned from previous matches and managed to turn the tables on that Cork side. For example, Tipp got 2 goals in their Munster championship campaign, but when it came to the semi-final against Leinster champions Galway, they struck for 3 and again 3 in the final. Last year, his under 20 side Tipp side scored 19 goals in 4 matches. Cahill seen early in 2018 where he had to improve and achieved his goal each year.

Rather than praise Cahill totally, the players deserve huge credit for how they applied themselves over lockdown. They look a fitter side than others and this doesn't happen by accident or in the 2 months since they've returned to collective training. There is also an unselfishness to the these players in that there doesn't seem to be the will to shoot on sight. In the past Gleeson and Bennett could be seen shooting at inappropriate times from distance but I feel there is definitely a maturity to both players in terms of their willingness to be team players as seen with Bennett's pass to Gleeson when he could have gone for goal himself last Saturday and the willingness of Gleeson to work back and earn a morale boosting free. There's no doubt that we have more natural and expressive hurlers than Dillon, Fagan, Montgomery & Prendergast but these lads have the grit between their teeth, the willingness to work and to do everything they can to the best of their ability for the good of the team. It's a refreshing blend that we now see in that forward line, in that we have bodies up top who have the potential to win ball and support one another. People can make what they want of 3 weeks in a row and the difficulty associated with it but undeniably, Waterford look fit and look to have a panel chomping at the bit to be introduced. I've always liked Ian Kenny, he slipped in with no fuss to replace Fives. There will be tiredness, but as we've seen with Cahill's use of Jake Dillon and Aussie, if needs be, use the bench and bringing in Montgomery, Conor Gleeson, Darragh Lyons, Patrick Curran etc brings a freshness that inspires confidence to the rest of the team remaining on the pitch.

We could talk about Kilkenny's strengths and weaknesses but I think it's time we look at ourselves. This is a week where we have pride in ourselves and not overthink Kilkenny. Obviously plans will be in place for Reid, Hogan, Fennelly etc but the most important thing for us Waterford people, is that we know we have a panel that will turn up and most importantly give their all and if we fall short, it won't be for a lack of effort from the lads.

Bring on Saturday evening.

tommylad1212

Strange to see young kirwan from fenor coming on as a sub last sunday, saw him play for fenor last year very average in a very poor intermediate team, He is down on the programme as a kill player ?

garv123

tommylad1212 wrote: »

Strange to see young kirwan from fenor coming on as a sub last sunday, saw him play for fenor last year very average in a very poor intermediate team, He is down on the programme as a kill player ?

He's from kill and plays for kill?

tommylad1212

garv123 wrote: »

He's from kill and plays for kill?

Kill dont have a hurling team

Fred Daly

deiseach wrote: »

Would not be interested in ass tickling.

tonc76

tommylad1212 wrote: »

Kill dont have a hurling team

I think Kill and Fenor have joined forces.

Kill in football
Fenor in hurling

tommylad1212

tonc76 wrote: »

I think Kill and Fenor have joined forces.

Kill in football
Fenor in hurling

Yes so fenor is his hurling club

iebamm2580

Fred Daly wrote: »

Bitterness at its best the humiliaton we gave ye after M Rice injury 2012 semi final ranks up there the top .

1964 final 14points 2019 14points 2016 9points 2010 8 points, all finals, simple facts are when tipp and kilkenny meet, tipp are more likely to win, cant argue with facts. I know it hurts but its true. Wouldn't have won near as many all irelands if ye had to come through munster. Full faith Waterford will win this weekend. Bitterness is what you get when you read Jackie Tyrrells and Eoin larkins books, clowns.

Fred Daly

Did ye beat us four years on the trot championship hurling 2011 , 12, 13, 14, as regards munster hurling ye could not get past the first round for nearly twenty years. May be the two boys had a right to say what there feelings were about Tipp i thought ye were a harder bunch than that.

seligehgit

Fred Daly wrote: »

Bitterness at its best the humiliaton we gave ye after M Rice injury 2012 semi final ranks up there the top .

iebamm2580 wrote: »

1964 final 14points 2019 14points 2016 9points 2010 8 points, all finals, simple facts are when tipp and kilkenny meet, tipp are more likely to win, cant argue with facts. I know it hurts but its true. Wouldn't have won near as many all irelands if ye had to come through munster. Full faith Waterford will win this weekend. Bitterness is what you get when you read Jackie Tyrrells and Eoin larkins books, clowns.

Fred Daly wrote: »

Did ye beat us four years on the trot championship hurling 2011 , 12, 13, 14, as regards munster hurling ye could not get past the first round for nearly twenty years. May be the two boys had a right to say what there feelings were about Tipp i thought ye were a harder bunch than that.

This is the Waterford GAA Discussion Thread so cut out the tit for tat Tipp Kilkenny sniping.

iebamm2580

Waterford forum so im not derailing anymore, best of luck to the deise the weekend, ye have as good if not better hurlers so no reason why ye cant win.

iebamm2580

Fred Daly wrote: »

Did ye beat us four years on the trot championship hurling 2011 , 12, 13, 14, as regards munster hurling ye could not get past the first round for nearly twenty years. May be the two boys had a right to say what there feelings were about Tipp i thought ye were a harder bunch than that.

45YEARS.

Teebor15

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Waterford forum so im not derailing anymore, best of luck to the deise the weekend, ye have as good if not better hurlers so no reason why ye cant win.

Derails it in very next post!!!!

Mastermcgrath

What’s Sheedys situation in Tipp? Is he staying on for 2021. I would imagine as soon as Tipp come calling for Cahill we will lose him, and there’s no reason why they wouldn’t

mountgomery burns

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

What’s Sheedys situation in Tipp? Is he staying on for 2021. I would imagine as soon as Tipp come calling for Cahill we will lose him, and there’s no reason why they wouldn’t

Staying on for 2021 at least unless something changes. He had a 3 year term which presumably was the basis under which Cahill decided on a 2 year term with us initially at least.

iebamm2580

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

What’s Sheedys situation in Tipp? Is he staying on for 2021. I would imagine as soon as Tipp come calling for Cahill we will lose him, and there’s no reason why they wouldn’t

Think he is working with sponsors teneo now so reckon he will be here for another year at least, then maybe Cahill as his u21/20s will be coming to the age to stepup.

Giveitfong

Waterford 3-27 Clare 3-18

Several of the reports and commentaries on Waterford’s defeat of Clare last Saturday that I have read or listened to seemed to dwell more on Clare’s misfortunes and prospects than on Waterford’s performance. On RTE’s Sunday Game, Des Cahill had to intervene and tell Donal Óg Cusack (a former Clare coach) and Mícheál O’Donoghue that Waterford had actually won the match and that the focus should be on them.

Numerous pundits also referred to the absence, through injury, of John Conlon and Peter Duggan from the Clare team and to the unfortunate injury sustained by Tony Kelly early on in Saturday’s game. Nobody mentioned that Waterford were missing Padraic Mahony, Conor Gleeson and Darragh and Shane Fives.

Apart from the odd blip, this was a marvellous Waterford performance. In addition to their 30 scores, they hit 14 wides, had four shots fall short, and had two shots saved. That’s 50 shots in all, in 78 minutes of play, which is extraordinary. Clare’s corresponding total was 35 (including one shot that hit the post), and that is probably a fair reflection of the overall balance of play between the teams during the game.

In the first half, there was little between the teams in terms of possessions (Waterford had 72 to Clare’s 68). However, while Clare’s possession count rose slightly (to 74) in the second half, Waterford’s soared to 103. They were particularly dominant in the final quarter, during which period they had 17 shots at goal to Clare’s nine. This is a testament both to the quality of the players and their very high fitness levels.

A key contributor to Waterford’s victory was a general improvement in individual displays across the team. Jamie Barron was back to his Duracell Bunny best – his ability to turn up in support of the player in possession all over the field is almost unbelievable and he was a deserving winner of the Player of the Match award. His total of 20 possessions was well ahead of anyone else on the field.

Kevin Moran also put in a major performance, especially in the second half, where he provided excellent cover for the full back line as Clare came time and again looking for goals. Kieran Bennett had his best game yet for Waterford, while Austin Gleeson and Jack Fagan were much more involved than in previous games. When Jamie Barron took the sideline which led to Waterford’s third goal, Fagan was on the 45 metre line near the left sideline. From there, he sprinted to the edge of the small square to receive Dessie Hutchinson’s pass to finish to the net. And again he gave several examples of his ability to run at defences, a facet of his play that I would like to see more of.

Hutchinson, apart from Barron, was the other star of the show. His pace, footwork, ball skills and eye for an opening are a joy to behold, and he also has the priceless peripheral vision to provide telling passes to team mates which were also very apparent with Ballygunner earlier in the year.
Tadhg de Búrca had a very quiet first half (just two possessions), as it was clearly Clare’s game plan to keep the ball away from him. However, as Clare came under increasing pressure and tired in the second half, they were less able to control their deliveries with the result that de Búrca went to town, with 12 further possessions.

Calum Lyons was in and out of the game a bit, but overall turned in another fine performance. I had seen Lyons play a couple of times at underage level, and while I thought he was handy enough, I was not prepared for the fully-formed intercounty hurler who burst on the scene last year, and he has been improving ever since. Excellent in the air, he is also brilliant at picking ball at pace while his big stride gives him that extra metre of pace. He is one of the best I have seen for going past opposing players, but what is particularly remarkable about him is his calmness and excellent use of the ball. His emergence has been a huge boost for Waterford.

Conor Prunty also had his best game yet for Waterford. He recovered from being caught on the hop for Aron Shanagher’s second goal (he had no responsibility for the first) to keeping the Clare danger man under wraps for the remainder of the game. While he had ten possessions, this is only a partial measure of his contribution given the expert way he uses his size, strength and long reach to deny his opposite number possession. He is also very calm and very good to bring the ball out of the tackle and pass it on. In fact, the entire full back line deserves great credit. While Shanagher and Shane O’Donnell looked early on that they could cause a lot of trouble, they were both reduced to just two possessions in the second half.

Much has already been said about the contribution the Waterford substitutes made in the second half. Neil Montgomery, Darragh Lyons and Patrick Curran all had seven possessions (remarkable in Curran’s case as he was only on the field for 12 minutes). Lyons in particular played a key role in providing an outlet for balls out of defence. It was great to see Conor Gleeson back and showing glimpses of what he is capable of. I have always felt that he has more to offer as a forward, despite his excellent past performances as a man marker.

Another key area of improvement for Waterford was Stephen O’Keeffe’s puckouts. These seemed to have a lower arc which makes it more difficult for defenders, and on several occasions he found players outfield on their own with directed deliveries. Against Cork, Waterford won just a quarter of their long puckouts, rising to 38% against Limerick. Last Saturday, the figure rose again to 60%. Waterford also won 57% of Clare’s long puckouts for a very satisfactory day in this key performance area. Waterford also had a more organised approach to sidelines, with Shane McNulty taking those inside the Waterford 45 metre line, Jamie Barron taking all those between the 45 metre lines, and Austin Gleeson having a go inside the opposition 45 metre line.

One word of concern. Jack Prendergast shipped a foot or ankle injury in the 20th minute, apparently following contact with a Clare player off the ball. He was shown on screen to be limping a couple of times afterwards. The Waterford mentors immediately got Neil Montgomery ready to replace him, but then delayed this until half time. I hope that Prendergast did not aggravate his injury during the period he was left on the field, especially given the short turnaround before next Saturday’s game.

Waterford team (possession counts in brackets):

S O’Keeffe (5), I Kenny (7), C Prunty (10), S McNulty (10), K Moran (13), T de Búrca (14), C Lyons (14), J Barron (20), K Bennett (11), J Prendergast (2), J Fagan (8), J Dillon (8), A Gleeson (9), S Bennett (9), D Hutchinson (10), N Montgomery (7), D Lyons (7), P Curran (7), C Gleeson (3), C Kirwan (1).

JD 60

Liam Cahill has more than once referenced Waterford's tendency, once ahead, to let other teams back into a game. He doesn't shower too much praise publicly on his own players but instead homes in on incidents where scores were coughed up. Mind you, (after Saturday's victory) he did name check Dessie as being a special player as well as saying how hard he trains ; earlier in the year, he singled out Stephen Bennett for his workrate and attitude. Becoming Tipp manager down the line might be an aspiration but for now, Cahill isn't here to be popular .... but simply to lead Waterford to that elusive AI. Incidentally, I don't know much about his wingman (Bevans) ... is the latter more of a 'strategist'.

Paddy Power have Kilkenny @ 4/6 and Waterford @ 13/8. Those odds are about right, I think. Waterford have more than a decent chance of winning, although Kilkenny will come at us with all guns blazing and will fight to the bitter end. I hope Waterford pile ball down on top of the KK full back line and see what happens ; the Croke Park surface will be ideal for Dessie ; I would also expect Aussie to have a bigger influence (though not complaining about his return from the last 2 games .... 5 points from 5 efforts, forgetting about sidelines ?).

carq

When looking at Aussie's stats, important to remember had a point taken away due to a whistle happy referree and also another great point taken away by a dubious line call.