Waterford GAA Thread - Mod note post #1

Deisegodeo

waterfordgirl wrote: »

Any idea if these will be televised? From memory I think they're not but it would be great if they were

from memory I think the original fixture was to be televised as nobody could attend, think tg4 were due to cover it, but obviously then all the games were cancelled. so hopefully tg4 will take it on again.

willietherock

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

‘Up for the match’ to go ahead apparently, guests will include christy heffernan, Derek mcgrath, JP McManus, Leonard Enright and many many more...

Leonard is unlikely to make it this year.

Mastermcgrath

seananigans wrote: »

no it's shane fives

No Kenny will keep his place. Cahill is ruthless like the Cody of old. If you get injured it’s tough luck, there’s no guarantee your place will be there when you come back.

blueflame

In terms of Fives / Kenny, hard call as Fives did very well until injured while Kenny has done well since he came in. Big question over Fives is wil the two weeks lay off have made him a little rusty, while with Kenny you are questioning his experience of the big day - one thing for sure is that it is great to have the two of them available. Personally i would like to see Five back in there for his physicality, experience and he gives us that extra aerieal capability in the fullback. THat being said won't be too upset if Kenny gets the nod, because i think he has done really well this year.

Dillon / Montgomery - Jake had the proverbial "mare" against Kilkenny, but I felt had been very good in previous games until tiring, and has that bit more experience,. Would Montgomery be much more effective making an impression from the bench as he has done consistently, rather than having the pressure of starting? Does Jake respond to be taken off last week by hurling at a higher level to prove a point or does it affect his confidence, all big questions. Felt Cody made a mistake starting Richie Hogan, as personally i would have had much more fear of him coming in off the bench rather than Walsh or Fennelly - Hogan has always had that ability to turn a game on its head in a five minute spell, while some players just cannot get into a game.

Also is there a case for Darragh Lyons, getting a start around midfield as he is very mobile, pacy and a very clever hurler, his hand passing ability is exceptional also which can be very useful in congested midfield areas, as it is most likely to be Sunday week. One thing is for sure, this match is going to be a 20 -man aside game

I am sure it is a real headache for Liam Cahill , but it is a good headache to have at this stage, let's just hope nothing changes.

As was mentioned recently by another poster wouldn't it be great to have Darragh Fives, Pauric Mahony, Shane Bennett and Tom Devine fit and rearing to go as additions to our bench Sunday week .

Limerick pose the biggest challenge by far for this team and are rightly nailed on favourites, but i honestly believe we are going to be there or thereabouts, two very evenly matched teams terms of match ups and style. Fascinating stuff. .

PTH2009

waterfordgirl wrote: »

Any idea if these will be televised? From memory I think they're not but it would be great if they were

Think the minor was going to be on GAAGO and the under 20 on TG4

seananigans

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

No Kenny will keep his place. Cahill is ruthless like the Cody of old. If you get injured it’s tough luck, there’s no guarantee your place will be there when you come back.

you missed the joke

PTH2009

No we can we afford to give Limerick the same lead we gave Kilkenny in the first half

killbillvol2

Aaron Gillane 50/50 to be fit according to Limerick. The mind games begin!

Mastermcgrath

blueflame wrote: »

In terms of Fives / Kenny, hard call as Fives did very well until injured while Kenny has done well since he came in. Big question over Fives is wil the two weeks lay off have made him a little rusty, while with Kenny you are questioning his experience of the big day - one thing for sure is that it is great to have the two of them available. Personally i would like to see Five back in there for his physicality, experience and he gives us that extra aerieal capability in the fullback. THat being said won't be too upset if Kenny gets the nod, because i think he has done really well this year.

Dillon / Montgomery - Jake had the proverbial "mare" against Kilkenny, but I felt had been very good in previous games until tiring, and has that bit more experience,. Would Montgomery be much more effective making an impression from the bench as he has done consistently, rather than having the pressure of starting? Does Jake respond to be taken off last week by hurling at a higher level to prove a point or does it affect his confidence, all big questions. Felt Cody made a mistake starting Richie Hogan, as personally i would have had much more fear of him coming in off the bench rather than Walsh or Fennelly - Hogan has always had that ability to turn a game on its head in a five minute spell, while some players just cannot get into a game.

Also is there a case for Darragh Lyons, getting a start around midfield as he is very mobile, pacy and a very clever hurler, his hand passing ability is exceptional also which can be very useful in congested midfield areas, as it is most likely to be Sunday week. One thing is for sure, this match is going to be a 20 -man aside game

I am sure it is a real headache for Liam Cahill , but it is a good headache to have at this stage, let's just hope nothing changes.

As was mentioned recently by another poster wouldn't it be great to have Darragh Fives, Pauric Mahony, Shane Bennett and Tom Devine fit and rearing to go as additions to our bench Sunday week .

Limerick pose the biggest challenge by far for this team and are rightly nailed on favourites, but i honestly believe we are going to be there or thereabouts, two very evenly matched teams terms of match ups and style. Fascinating stuff. .

Good points, but for me Montgomery starts. If your looking to match Limerick for physicality in that middle third of the pitch he’s got to be in. Dillon might not even make it off the bench the next day such are the options we have.

Darragh Lyons I’d keep in reserve I think he’s lethal coming off the bench, ran at Kilkenny's tiring legs the last day they simply couldn’t handle him.

PTH2009

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Aaron Gillane 50/50 to be fit according to Limerick. The mind games begin!

99% sure he will start

Even without him Limerick have a super squad

Billy Ocean

PTH2009 wrote: »

99% sure he will start

Even without him Limerick have a super squad

exactly even if he somehow was unavailable a FF line of Casey, Flanagan, Mulcahy could still be a handful

PTH2009

Kevin Moran is the last of the old guard (Justin Mccarthy era) left and wouldn't it be so fitting if he finally got a celtic cross. Was it 2006 when he joined the panel ?

JD60

I see Tom Morrissey has come out to say that team member families should be allowed to attend the Final. It makes perfect sense but probably won't happen. I presume Gillane will start. Limerick also in the news about taking over LIT grounds for training.

Meanwhile, not a peep out of Waterford ... lets hope it stays that way. Maybe someone should muzzle Mullane (only kidding) ... I presume he's not doing co-commentary on the radio as he's liable to explode with emotion if Waterford are in sight on winning ..... bring it on.

Think myself that Monty will start. The in house match this weekend may decide this plus any other changes to the starting line up. Either way, the bench might be the difference and the Waterford subs are no slouches.

deise08

Anybody with bord gais?
They've a competition with their rewards to win a Waterford Christmas jumper. The ganzee ones that are sold out.

Asdfgh2020

Does Neil Montgomery by any chance have Scottish roots.....he’s a scratch golfer and in between his hurling loves haggis and Iron brew.....!.

deckie66

PTH2009 wrote: »

Kevin Moran is the last of the old guard (Justin Mccarthy era) left and wouldn't it be so fitting if he finally got a celtic cross. Was it 2006 when he joined the panel ?

must be the only Waterford player outside of the 50s/60s team who will have played in three all irelands

Motivator

Billy Ocean wrote: »

exactly even if he somehow was unavailable a FF line of Casey, Flanagan, Mulcahy could still be a handful

Mulcahy has been cat all year, I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t start on Sunday week.

mountgomery burns

Motivator wrote: »

Mulcahy has been cat all year, I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t start on Sunday week.

Ah stop he won them the match in the second half against us.

Asdfgh2020

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Ah stop he won them the match in the second half against us.

Limerick will be absolutely convinced that they will win.....I would sense a huge ‘over confidence’ in their attitude towards the game.....they have a very strong panel 1-20......majority of whom (as Marty frequently told us last Sunday) have ‘good hands’.....the management team will have left no stone unturned and every permutation/outcome of the game will have been planned for and rehearsed.......can see no other outcome than a 9/10 pt victory for the ‘treaty men’......and of course the famous ‘white board’

lim4ev

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

Limerick will be absolutely convinced that they will win.....I would sense a huge ‘over confidence’ in their attitude towards the game.....they have a very strong panel 1-20......majority of whom (as Marty frequently told us last Sunday) have ‘good hands’.....the management team will have left no stone unturned and every permutation/outcome of the game will have been planned for and rehearsed.......can see no other outcome than a 9/10 pt victory for the ‘treaty men’......and of course the famous ‘white board’

You can tell yourself this as much as you like the reality is no one in limerick (that I've heard since we qualified for the final) is thinking that way how could they. By the way I'd give anything to see Waterford win an all irl everything bar us being beaten for ye to win it sure you'll understand we don't win too many of them ourselves

killbillvol2

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

Limerick will be absolutely convinced that they will win.....I would sense a huge ‘over confidence’ in their attitude towards the game.....they have a very strong panel 1-20......majority of whom (as Marty frequently told us last Sunday) have ‘good hands’.....the management team will have left no stone unturned and every permutation/outcome of the game will have been planned for and rehearsed.......can see no other outcome than a 9/10 pt victory for the ‘treaty men’......and of course the famous ‘white board’

Nonsense. Utter nonsense. And I'm holding back. If you think this Limerick team will be allowed to have notions you really know nothing.

deckie66

deckie66 wrote: »

must be the only Waterford player outside of the 50s/60s team who will have played in three all irelands

I hope Kevin gets over the line this time. Always a fan of his. A good honest lad who has a bit of hurling in him.

Billy Ocean

Motivator wrote: »

Mulcahy has been cat all year, I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t start on Sunday week.

he was poor last Sunday but is well capable of lighting up the final, look at Hutchinson, quiet Munster final but really announced himself 6 days later against Clare

Giveitfong

Waterford 2-27 Kilkenny 2-23

Waterford’s first half performance against Kilkenny last Saturday evening was well-described by Donal O’Grady in the Irish Examiner: “they looked unsettled and anxious. Their touch was off, they lacked the interplay and hard running that was a hallmark of their previous performances. Composure, that vital ingredient for success, was also absent. A lack of composure forces a team into poor decision-making and this was a feature of Déise play in the first 30 minutes.”

Waterford clearly had allowed the occasion to get at them. Their error count in the first half (fumbles, bad wides, running into trouble, poor decisions) was colossal – I counted no less than 40 in all (compared to 14 for Kilkenny). Many of Kilkenny’s scores were gifted to them rather than earned by them.

While Kilkenny did have the balance of play territorially (84 possessions to Waterford’s 70), in fact Waterford managed more shots on goal (24-20). However, ten of these were wides (to Kilkenny’s six). Waterford also had two shots stopped and one which fell short (Kilkenny had one shot stopped and no shots which fell short). Most importantly of all, Kilkenny got two goals. For the first, Conor Prunty reached up in an attempt to catch an incoming ball and missed it completely, allowing the ball to run through. I could not believe it when Stephen O’Keeffe did not come out of goal as it was a 50:50 ball. He did save Hogan’s shot but it was not enough. For the second goal, we had Prunty’s fumble although fair dues to TJ Reid for being in position to make maximum use of such a fleeting opportunity.

While things looked bad at half-time, the facts show that, for all their errors, Waterford were not being overrun by an inherently superior force. It was now all about steadying the ship and producing the kind of hurling which had characterised their earlier games in the championship. However, the first few minutes of the second half were a continuation of the first-half trend. Neil Montgomery hit a terrible wide from the left sideline and then Jamie Barron’s attempt at a quick free towards Dessie Hutchinson was cut out by the Kilkenny defence and worked up the field for a further point. At that point it looked as though Waterford were facing into a heavy beating.

What happened after that will become the stuff of legend. It will be difficult to embellish the story when young people who watched the game will be telling their grandchildren about it in fifty years time. The quality of Waterford’s hurling in that 35 minutes was all the more astonishing when compared with what went before. In that period Waterford got 13 scores which I would regard as brilliant (or even better). And that doesn’t include Stephen Bennett’s 100-metre solo run late in the first half which will surely win the score-of-the-year award.

And, of course, it was Bennett who got the ball rolling with his super 37th minute goal, with full acknowledgement of Jack Fagan’s marvellous catch and pass. One newspaper reporter said that Bennett had to retrieve a bad pass from Fagan. In fact, it was the perfect pass, as in the process of taking the ball in hand, Bennett simultaneously took two Kilkenny defenders out of the game. He still had to deal with two more, but his combination of skill and resourcefulness was too much for them, and Eoin Murphy in the Kilkenny goal.

All the metrics point to the extent of Waterford’s second half dominance. The main one, of course, was their score of 2-17 to Kilkenny’s 0-12. In the first half Waterford got ten scores and ten wides; in the second half it was 19 scores (including two goals) and just four wides. In the process, they raised their possession count from 70 to 97 while Kikenny’s fell from 84 to 76. Waterford’s score tally was just one goal short of that achieved against Clare, which was remarkable given their poor first half performance.

A good indicator of the turnaround in fortunes is the number of long contested puckouts won (both teams played one third of puckouts short). In the first half Waterford won eight of their 13 long puckouts and just three of Kilkenny’s ten long puckouts. In the second half Waterford won eight of Kilkenny’s 17 long puckouts and no less than ten of their own eleven long puckouts (thanks to some brilliant fielding by Jack Fagan, Austin Gleeson and Jack Prendergast).

On RTE, Joanne Cantwell suggested that a key contributor to Waterford’s win was the way in which they limited the influence of TJ Reid in the second half. Neither of her two panel members (Donal Óg Cusack and Jackie Tyrrell) disagreed with this, even though it was completely wrong. Waterford won despite a second-half tour-de-force on Reid’s part, which is the main reason Waterford did not win by a lot more at the end. Apart from winning ten possessions, he scored six of Kilkenny’s 12 second-half points (five from frees) and was involved in the moves leading to another four.

Reid got terrific assistance from John Donnelly (12 possessions in the second half to add to nine in the first) and Cillian Buckley (11 first-half and 10 second-half possessions). However, a huge problem for Kilkenny was that so many of their players went missing in the second half (or rather, were blotted out by the opposition). Midfielder Conor Browne played the entire second half without getting a single possession. The same applied to Billy Ryan and his replacement Colin Fennelly, and to Niall Brassil, who replaced Richie Hogan (two second-half possessions) in the 56th minute. Ger Aylward, a surprise substitute for Eoin Cody after 58 minutes, got one ball which he sent badly wide.

In terms of possessions, Calum Lyons led the way with 20, followed closely by Jamie Barron with 18. Austin Gleeson was in third place with 15, and I would venture that this was his most involved game ever in a Waterford shirt. Apart from his possessions, he also did an enormous amount of work around the field tackling and blocking. This was never more apparent than in the 69th minute when, just having scored a wonder point after taking the ball out of a ruck, he got across to tackle Padraig Walsh who had just taken a short puckout, causing him to mi**** his clearance straight to Dessie Hutchinson who then put Patrick Curran in for what should have been a point.

This was also Jack Fagan’s first big game for Waterford. A player who first came to my notice when playing for Carlow IT in the Fitzgibbon Cup, Fagan was a sub on Waterford’s All-Ireland Under 21 team in 2016. He had his injury problems thereafter, but never got a look-in from either Derek McGrath or Pádraig Fanning. Liam Cahill deserves great credit for identifying his potential and persevering with him as he came to grips with senior intercounty hurling. His second-half contribution was phenomenal, including five great catches and, of course, his role in setting up the two goals.

The same could be said of Neil Montgomery, another surprise inclusion in Cahill’s panel, who really came of age here when introduced as a first-half substitute. Jack Prendergast also made a huge contribution with his high fielding and hard running and, of course, his two points, while Dessie Hutchinson was also more involved than heretofore. Stephen Bennett was a bit down the list with his twelve possessions, but what quality he packed into them. To think that he was an unused sub in the 2017 All-Ireland final, a game in which Patrick Curran got five minutes late on. These were two of the finest forward prospects to emerge from under-age level in Waterford since Paul Flynn, as demonstrated in the way they tore the Galway defence apart in the 2016 Under-21 final. I believe we will still get a big contribution from Curran, perhaps not in the All-Ireland final this year, but certainly in future years.

Waterford have been improving, game by game, during the course of this championship. However, they moved onto a new level in the second half of last Saturday’s game – they had to, in order to retrieve a very difficult situation. This level will have to be reproduced again, and for a longer duration, if they are to survive the challenge which Limerick will present in the final. From this point of view, the way Saturday’s game worked out may prove to be very beneficial in showing the team the level of performance of which they are capable.

There has been much comment on Fergal Horgan’s refereeing performance. While he did appear to favour Kilkenny in the refereeing errors, he was not as bad as I feared he might be. I counted nine instances of decisions of his which were either dubious or plain wrong, six of which favoured Kilkenny and three Waterford. In the space of a minute in the second half he failed to penalise Conor Delaney for a push in the back which knocked Dessie Hutchinson on his face and, in the next phase of play, ignored an even clearer trip on Kieran Bennett. I also thought the second free he gave against Calum Lyons for steps was harsh (we should be thankful that he did not referee our game against Cork!). On the other hand, he might well have given a free for a foul on Ger Aylward in front of goal in the closing minutes when there was only two points between the teams.

Waterford team (possession counts in brackets):

Stephen O'Keeffe (2); Ian Kenny (2), Conor Prunty (5), Shane McNulty (11); Calum Lyons (20), Tadhg De Burca (11), Kevin Moran (8); Jamie Barron (18), Jake Dillon (3); Jack Fagan (12), Kieran Bennett (4), Stephen Bennett (12); Dessie Hutchinson (11), Austin Gleeson (15), Jack Prendergast (10); Neil Montgomery (10), Darragh Lyons (6), Conor Gleeson (4), Iarlaith Daly (2), Patrick Curran (1).

HillFarmer

Thanks GiveitFong, great post as usual.

Watched the Limerick game again last night, we didn't do well in the air against their half backline.

If we go with the same tactics as the Munster final I think we'll lose.
I still have Limerick favorites, at least 60 40 in my view.

Limerick seem to go short for a lot of their own puckouts.
Do we push up on them or let them have possession ala the Munster final?
They are more comfortable than us breaking the tackle in my view and well suited to that puckout strategy.


If you had to give Cahill advice before the game, what would it be ?

Mastermcgrath

deckie66 wrote: »

must be the only Waterford player outside of the 50s/60s team who will have played in three all irelands

I think your right. Pretty sure Shane Fives also was on panel for the 08 final but didn’t play

JD60

Giveitfong ..... excellent as always.

I wouldn't take much notice of Cusack's analysis. Tyrell should know better but he seems more preoccupied with analysing full back lines.

Incredible that Stephen didn't see any action and Curran only 5 minutes in 2017 Final, though mightn't have been the difference with the "system" in place .... yet still only lost by 3 points.

Think that we're all agreed that the 2nd half performance will have to be replicated the next day, for the entire match.

raindodger

re giveitfongs post
Both limerick and waterford started badly i think playing in croke park was a factor for both teams as against our opponents who are more familiar with it.
different backdrops, bounce and texture
Both our opponents got the momentum from the start in our case galway should have been further ahead in yours almost game ending.
Next day it will be evens,heres to a great game no one in limerick would begrudge ye,but we still crave the win.

Deskjockey

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford 2-27 Kilkenny 2-23

There has been much comment on Fergal Horgan’s refereeing performance. While he did appear to favour Kilkenny in the refereeing errors, he was not as bad as I feared he might be. I counted nine instances of decisions of his which were either dubious or plain wrong, six of which favoured Kilkenny and three Waterford. In the space of a minute in the second half he failed to penalise Conor Delaney for a push in the back which knocked Dessie Hutchinson on his face and, in the next phase of play, ignored an even clearer trip on Kieran Bennett. I also thought the second free he gave against Calum Lyons for steps was harsh (we should be thankful that he did not referee our game against Cork!). On the other hand, he might well have given a free for a foul on Ger Aylward in front of goal in the closing minutes when there was only two points between the teams.

Good analysis as ever - thanks

Agree that when rewatching the match that Horgan was not as bad as I thought he was in real time. Jamie Barron could easily have gotten a worse sanction when his hurley hit the face guard of the Kilkenny player that time towards the end of the match (imagine missing him for the final :O... , and also thought that Alyward could easily have been a free in at the end which would have made for an even more nail-biting finish.

So while it is confirmed he is the ref for the final I am not as concerned now as I was a few days ago, the best team will win

spideyman92

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1334807694042161155?s=19