Third Secretary & Development Specialist Campaign 2020

belgowho

PearseCork92 wrote: »

I'd suspect if they didn't outright say you're eliminated they'll keep you on ice depending on how many they intend to hire over the duration of the campaign. Wouldn't lose hope just yet.

I very much hope so. It would be great if they indicated as much...even an oom

blithe

I passed but scored just under the 42 mark. This is probably it for now I'd say but we may still get a chance if they end up calling another batch some day

Well done to everyone and best of luck to those going forward!

Daisies

I wonder how many have been called to interview?

Alrite_

I didn't get through to the next stage either...my score was low. Just wondering from those who scored highly in the precis, how did you approach it? I tried to summaries each para. (but I didn't do any analysis-is this what I should have done?) Just want to know for future comps!!

MarZ8ar

Got the results there and it looks like I'll be going for interview in January.

I'm just wondering if it will be in my interest to attend at the language test as well. I can (sort of) speak a second language. As in I got a honours B1 in the leaving and I've been doing duolingo for the last 3-4 months... not great but have some ability. Will I still get points for my limited capability, or am I likely to harm my application by claiming competence but only presenting with pigeon ability.

Hard luck to everyone who wasn't called this time. Fingers crossed for all of you that more will be asked to interview in the new year.

emhds

MarZ8ar wrote: »

Got the results there and it looks like I'll be going for interview in January.

I'm just wondering if it will be in my interest to attend at the language test as well. I can (sort of) speak a second language. As in I got a honours B1 in the leaving and I've been doing duolingo for the last 3-4 months... not great but have some ability. Will I still get points for my limited capability, or am I likely to harm my application by claiming competence but only presenting with pigeon ability.

Hard luck to everyone who wasn't called this time. Fingers crossed for all of you that more will be asked to interview in the new year.

Did you give an indicator of what level you speak? A B1 in honours leaving cert would probably be equivalent of around a B1-B2 on CERF, presuming your level hasn’t reduced. So if you said you had comprehension but not C2 level fluency then that would probably be taken into consideration.

CrouchTiger

MarZ8ar wrote: »

Got the results there and it looks like I'll be going for interview in January.

I'm just wondering if it will be in my interest to attend at the language test as well. I can (sort of) speak a second language. As in I got a honours B1 in the leaving and I've been doing duolingo for the last 3-4 months... not great but have some ability. Will I still get points for my limited capability, or am I likely to harm my application by claiming competence but only presenting with pigeon ability.

Hard luck to everyone who wasn't called this time. Fingers crossed for all of you that more will be asked to interview in the new year.

Without being insensitive... you'd need to be at least B2 level in the European framework for it to be worth claiming sufficient capability in a foreign language. So you'd probably want to be at least an A1 in an honours LC standard and more at present TBH. You'd need to be able to hold your own in a reasonably complex conversation and readily understand aural extracts. Most people suggesting they have language competency have college-level capabilities at least.

MarZ8ar

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I didn't claim any ability in a foreign language in my application. I was just wondering, in circumstances where it appears that I can attend at the language assessment in any case, is it worth my while to do so? As in, will I gain some points for my limited level of proficiency, or do the department assess foreign language capabilities on a fluency or bust basis?

Daisies

Alrite_ wrote: »

I didn't get through to the next stage either...my score was low. Just wondering from those who scored highly in the precis, how did you approach it? I tried to summaries each para. (but I didn't do any analysis-is this what I should have done?) Just want to know for future comps!!

I scored nearly full marks and I summarised it. There was a warning not to analyse it or infer anything. The one thing I found was that the original piece was very disjointed so I had to move information around to make it more coherent.
The main tip I would have is to read it a few times to make sure it makes sense and flows and doesn't seem to be jumping around a lot.

belgowho

Im also a bit annoyed as I felt my first Precis was better than the second one I had to do. Oh well

Wyattwouldnt

Scored a measly 28, don't think I'll be seeing the inside of a zoom meeting for this comp haha. Well done and best of luck to everyone going forward!

MarZ8ar

Alrite_ wrote: »

I didn't get through to the next stage either...my score was low. Just wondering from those who scored highly in the precis, how did you approach it? I tried to summaries each para. (but I didn't do any analysis-is this what I should have done?) Just want to know for future comps!!

Exactly what Daisies said.

I am far from a capable teacher, so apologies if this does not explain it well, but I am very experienced in drafting and compiling briefs, and in my summarisation I had the following;

1. A 1 or 2 sentence paragraph providing the thesis of the whole piece.

2. 1 short paragraph for each of the primary points of the piece in the order of their importance in proving its overall point. The easiest way to create an effective summary is by pulling the original piece into word and moving sentences until all of the information on a particular point is together. Once you have this it is much easier to read the relevant parts and compress their content into a sentence or two. If a sentence/paragraph in the original piece deals with more than one subject, this is usually assistive in ordering your summary because, unless the issues have no bearing on each other, it probably demonstrates what topic you should put next in your summary while still maintaining the flow. Stick to 1-2 sentences per point. Just because a point takes up 1/3 of the article doesn't mean that you can give it 1/3 of your summary. Keep in mind that you can summarise stats too. "Most people in North America", is a far shorter way of saying 84% of Canadians, 77% of Americans 91% of Mexicans and 66% of Costa Ricans.

3. If a point in the article doesn't really impact the overarching point, include it briefly at the end.

4. Maybe controversial, but IMO a conclusion is a waste of words. People don't read briefs because they have infinite time to take in the totality of the article. Order it from most important to least important information and then end it.

CrouchTiger

MarZ8ar wrote: »

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I didn't claim any ability in a foreign language in my application. I was just wondering, in circumstances where it appears that I can attend at the language assessment in any case, is it worth my while to do so? As in, will I gain some points for my limited level of proficiency, or do the department assess foreign language capabilities on a fluency or bust basis?

You're going to have to take some kind of assessment in the Department anyway, so it probably won't matter too much when you do it. If it's very basic level, you probably won't get much kudos, but if there's a reasonably solid level there that you can commit to improving (i.e B1/B2) that's something. There's a very significant advantage to being fluent or highly competent at a language, even more so if it's a less conventional one, but the least you should be able to do is show some efforts or intent to improve or gain competency. I don't really think DuoLingo will cut on that front, I'm afraid, but enrollment in a language course or training would be to your credit.

PeachL00pies

Emailed PAS :

For the Third Secretary/DSO, we have called candidates with a total score of up to and including 42 or higher to the next stage. At present there are no plans currently in place to call a further batch of candidates forward.

belgowho

PeachL00pies wrote: »

Emailed PAS :

For the Third Secretary/DSO, we have called candidates with a total score of up to and including 42 or higher to the next stage. At present there are no plans currently in place to call a further batch of candidates forward.

You would expect that response. There would be no plans at present. We can still be hopeful for 2021.

ticklemonster

Id assume that there will be more called forward for interview to create a reserve list. I've no idea how many people are in the pool at this stage but interviewing take times and resources so completing it in batches is normal.

PurpleRainx

Wyattwouldnt wrote: »

Scored a measly 28, don't think I'll be seeing the inside of a zoom meeting for this comp haha. Well done and best of luck to everyone going forward!

You did four points better than me. Do you really think we don’t have a hope of being called at some stage in 21? In past competitions were there many who met the qualifying standard yet didn’t reach the interview stage?

PurpleRainx

Controversial thought but I would be interested to see how the results of those who did the precis twice compared to those who had one attempt.

CrouchTiger

PurpleRainx wrote: »

You did four points better than me. Do you really think we don’t have a hope of being called at some stage in 21? In past competitions were there many who met the qualifying standard yet didn’t reach the interview stage?

Yes - I would say far more passed and still didn't get called than did in past years. To be realistic, I think if you did not get offered an interview this time around, to manage your own expectations, it may be better to operate on the assumption it is unlikely you will be invited later on. This is my personal view, but I do not see how the intake is going to be as large this year and there will certainly be people who are offered an interview who will also not pass that interview... so they are already allowing for far more than they need. In the past, people got called for further interviews AFTER they were panelled from the first interview. Without an OOM for the précis, I do not think it is realistic to expect a later interview. However, anything can happen... so PAS will always allow themselves leeway to do that in case.

Wyattwouldnt

PurpleRainx wrote: »

You did four points better than me. Do you really think we don’t have a hope of being called at some stage in 21? In past competitions were there many who met the qualifying standard yet didn’t reach the interview stage?

No way of knowing for sure I suppose...I'm not too hopeful myself. We might get the chance to interview at some stage if it's a 2 year panel but I would imagine there are a good few people between our scores and the 42 we needed 🀔

Alrite_

MarZ8ar wrote: »

Exactly what Daisies said.

I am far from a capable teacher, so apologies if this does not explain it well, but I am very experienced in drafting and compiling briefs, and in my summarisation I had the following;

1. A 1 or 2 sentence paragraph providing the thesis of the whole piece.

2. 1 short paragraph for each of the primary points of the piece in the order of their importance in proving its overall point. The easiest way to create an effective summary is by pulling the original piece into word and moving sentences until all of the information on a particular point is together. Once you have this it is much easier to read the relevant parts and compress their content into a sentence or two. If a sentence/paragraph in the original piece deals with more than one subject, this is usually assistive in ordering your summary because, unless the issues have no bearing on each other, it probably demonstrates what topic you should put next in your summary while still maintaining the flow. Stick to 1-2 sentences per point. Just because a point takes up 1/3 of the article doesn't mean that you can give it 1/3 of your summary. Keep in mind that you can summarise stats too. "Most people in North America", is a far shorter way of saying 84% of Canadians, 77% of Americans 91% of Mexicans and 66% of Costa Ricans.

3. If a point in the article doesn't really impact the overarching point, include it briefly at the end.

4. Maybe controversial, but IMO a conclusion is a waste of words. People don't read briefs because they have infinite time to take in the totality of the article. Order it from most important to least important information and then end it.

Thanks for taking the time to write out these points. They will definitely be of good use if I have to do a precis again in a future comp. I can see where I went wrong with it now!!

PearseCork92

MarZ8ar wrote: »

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I didn't claim any ability in a foreign language in my application. I was just wondering, in circumstances where it appears that I can attend at the language assessment in any case, is it worth my while to do so? As in, will I gain some points for my limited level of proficiency, or do the department assess foreign language capabilities on a fluency or bust basis?

I'd know quite a few people in the diplomatic world (not just Irish), and some of the best and most capable I've met wouldn't be the greatest linguists. It's certainly a good string to have to your bow going for this occupation, but it's not the be-all and end-all. The interview panel know this. Even if someone rolls into an interview with a demonstrated proficiency in Farsi and Russian but is a complete bellend - they'll know they're a liability.

thirdsecmaybe

The logic being presumably that you can learn farsi or russian but it's harder to learn not to be a bellend

PearseCork92

thirdsecmaybe wrote: »

The logic being presumably that you can learn farsi or russian but it's harder to learn not to be a bellend

Absolutely. While there are certainly difficult personalities in the DFA, for the most part Irish diplomats have a reputation for being grounded and good operators.

You'll meet diplomats from other countries that speak 7 languages with a doctorate from Cambridge under their belt, but simply don't have their head screwed on and annoy more people than they influence in the right direction. We're actually well served by them, even if the general public have a limited understanding what they do.

Balaine

Does anyone know how many were called to do the precis exercise or better still how many passed? No oom so trying to guage chance of being called to the next round interview sometime in the future.

3rdSec2020

Purely speculation on my part but this is my current thinking:

Scenario A) They have a large enough pool of candidates scoring 42 or higher to create a panel post-interview (attributing an OOM at that point). Meaning that they won’t reach down to us unless that panel is exhausted. My issue with this is that I simply can’t get my head around the fact that they might actually have that many people scoring 42 or above? Based on our sample here only a couple of people are progressing to interviews in Jan, suggesting that there may not actually be that many in the top bracket.

Scenario Those of us who passed the précis but missed the cut-off point are now effectively forming a reserve list, with potential further batches going forward to interview in Feb/Mar or possibly later. This would be consistent with previous competitions despite the fact that the stages were structured differently this year due to the pandemic. Considering we don’t have an OOM at the moment one would have to assume they’ll work down the list of précis results. I do think we would have been informed if we were totally eliminated at this point, doesn’t appear to be the case from my reading of the exchanges with PAS.

Obviously hoping the reality is closer to scenario B but I don’t expect we’ll receive any further clarification until the Jan 2021 interviews are completed.

Very well done to those going forward, I personally found the précis a very challenging exercise so I’m quite in awe of the top scorers!

CrouchTiger

3rdSec2020 wrote: »

Purely speculation on my part but this is my current thinking:

Scenario A) They have a large enough pool of candidates scoring 42 or higher to create a panel post-interview (attributing an OOM at that point). Meaning that they won’t reach down to us unless that panel is exhausted. My issue with this is that I simply can’t get my head around the fact that they might actually have that many people scoring 42 or above? Based on our sample here only a couple of people are progressing to interviews in Jan, suggesting that there may not actually be that many in the top bracket.

Scenario Those of us who passed the précis but missed the cut-off point are now effectively forming a reserve list, with potential further batches going forward to interview in Feb/Mar or possibly later. This would be consistent with previous competitions despite the fact that the stages were structured differently this year due to the pandemic. Considering we don’t have an OOM at the moment one would have to assume they’ll work down the list of précis results. I do think we would have been informed if we were totally eliminated at this point, doesn’t appear to be the case from my reading of the exchanges with PAS.

Obviously hoping the reality is closer to scenario B but I don’t expect we’ll receive any further clarification until the Jan 2021 interviews are completed.

Very well done to those going forward, I personally found the précis a very challenging exercise so I’m quite in awe of the top scorers!

I think Scenario A is very much a reality for this and consistent with past competitions. That is to say, nobody is "eliminated" completely of course, but the PAS language indicates the instructions they've got... namely that there are no plans to do further interviews currently. The thing that would change that is if the panel of candidates who passed the interviews was too small for the vacancies they need to fill. At present, the feeling seems to be that it will be sufficient. They'd only do more interviews in the case that this fails to transpire I think!

3rdSec2020

CrouchTiger wrote: »

I think Scenario A is very much a reality for this and consistent with past competitions. That is to say, nobody is "eliminated" completely of course, but the PAS language indicates the instructions they've got... namely that there are no plans to do further interviews currently. The thing that would change that is if the panel of candidates who passed the interviews was too small for the vacancies they need to fill. At present, the feeling seems to be that it will be sufficient. They'd only do more interviews in the case that this fails to transpire I think!

Thank you for the input! It’s great to have someone on the forum with a bit more insight as to how these things work.

CrouchTiger

3rdSec2020 wrote: »

Thank you for the input! It’s great to have someone on the forum with a bit more insight as to how these things work.

It was a similarly difficult and anxiety-provoking experience when I went through it and just wanted clarity that took too long! So I really sympathise with you and hope at least it can give a sense of where expectations can lie from past experience. The altered approach with the pandemic may make this year a bit unique, but the principle that PAS carries out the instructions of the line Department whose main goal is to fill vacancies is helpful when reasoning through it. So new info will only come when there is a concrete reason for things to change - I think that's the best way to approach it rather than thinking 3 steps ahead.

3rdSec2020

CrouchTiger wrote: »

It was a similarly difficult and anxiety-provoking experience when I went through it and just wanted clarity that took too long! So I really sympathise with you and hope at least it can give a sense of where expectations can lie from past experience. The altered approach with the pandemic may make this year a bit unique, but the principle that PAS carries out the instructions of the line Department whose main goal is to fill vacancies is helpful when reasoning through it. So new info will only come when there is a concrete reason for things to change - I think that's the best way to approach it rather than thinking 3 steps ahead.

That makes absolute sense and I think it will provide some closure for those of us who couldn’t quite grasp what the approach going forward would be from the way the PAS response was worded. I know I’ll be able to keep your advice in mind now and manage my expectations accordingly.

Still a great learning experience and I think all of us who made it to the précis and beyond can be very proud of that achievement.

Thanks again for replying on a Saturday!

We know just over 200 made it to stage 2 (and a little over 70 for DSO).

I’m sure some didn’t sit and some failed the video interview, and some passed but didn’t progress.

We don’t know how many proceeded to stage 3, précis.

For both third secretary and DSO they are only interviewing candidates who scored 42/50 on the précis. The qualifying standard was 20/50. The exercise was marked on content (25) and structure (25), so you essentially had to score at least 21/25 in each component.

The numbers for DSO at stage 2 were small, and even smaller again - so I’m surprised they even have enough candidates to interview if the threshold is as high as 42/50. Especially bear in mind that there will be candidates who failed the précis.

If it is about interviewing a certain number of candidates I’m surprised both competitions required 42/50 for interview (I know DSO might only be a tiny panel).

Even if they only intend to hire 15-20 third secretaries, I would imagine they would be interviewing 40-50. If we guesstimate that 100 made it to stage three, I would be surprised if half the candidates score 42/50 on the précis.

Balaine

Thank you for all your replies. It will be interesting to see how the situation develops.

lizzyG08

Hi all, thanks for this thread it’s been so useful! I’m happy to have made it to the interview round and I had a question about the language competency test format. I have a degree in french but it’s been a while since I’ve used the language and I was wondering if I should focus on oral or written language (or both!) when studying. Thanks!

Daisies

Anyone received, and completed, the optional language testing?

PearseCork92

lizzyG08 wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for this thread it’s been so useful! I’m happy to have made it to the interview round and I had a question about the language competency test format. I have a degree in french but it’s been a while since I’ve used the language and I was wondering if I should focus on oral or written language (or both!) when studying. Thanks!

This would be interesting to know for future reference. I speak an in-demand language to a fairly high level, but my written would be sub-par (I learned it on the fly over a number of years with next to no in-class hours).

And if it is a test of oral capabilities, is it an in-house Department person assessing it or an outside examiner?

sectrd

Daisies wrote: »

Anyone received, and completed, the optional language testing?

Yep, it was extremely straight forward. Also not through any official Government form/service, a free online very general testing website.


Anyone have any idea how the final interview is going to work? Previous years had two interviews, from what I can make out one was more competency based and the other more general knowledge kind of stuff. Will they just roll both into one or do you think the recorded interviews has fulfilled the competency side?

lizzyG08

PearseCork92 wrote: »

This would be interesting to know for future reference. I speak an in-demand language to a fairly high level, but my written would be sub-par (I learned it on the fly over a number of years with next to no in-class hours).

And if it is a test of oral capabilities, is it an in-house Department person assessing it or an outside examiner?

The test seems to be purely grammar based, so no oral examination at this stage! I know I have a lot of work to do to brush up again before the deadline!

MarZ8ar

Just wondering if anyone received confirmation from PAS that their results were received. I'm a little worried that I've heard nothing on foot of completing the test.

sectrd

MarZ8ar wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone received confirmation from PAS that their results were received. I'm a little worried that I've heard nothing on foot of completing the test.

Nope, never heard anything back! I did plan on contacting them to see if there is any consideration taken for having Gaeilge as a language, doubt there is though. Might ask then for confirmation maybe.

PearseCork92

sectrd wrote: »

Nope, never heard anything back! I did plan on contacting them to see if there is any consideration taken for having Gaeilge as a language, doubt there is though. Might ask then for confirmation maybe.

I believe there is (across the civil service). Irish is an official language of the European Union don't forget!

lizzyG08

Hi all, happy new year! So my interview is scheduled for the 22nd. I was wondering if they’re usually all done on the same day or across several days and if anyone knows how long after that we find out if we passed! Thanks!

Amazon88

lizzyG08 wrote: »

Hi all, happy new year! So my interview is scheduled for the 22nd. I was wondering if they’re usually all done on the same day or across several days and if anyone knows how long after that we find out if we passed! Thanks!

Happy new year and congratulations! Sorry I don’t have any answers but are the interviews face to face in Dublin?

sectrd

lizzyG08 wrote: »

Hi all, happy new year! So my interview is scheduled for the 22nd. I was wondering if they’re usually all done on the same day or across several days and if anyone knows how long after that we find out if we passed! Thanks!

Same to you! I've my interview a few days earlier so I would guess they're spread out over a few days!

Going by previous years they seem pretty quick to process and get results out to people within a few weeks, sometimes even within a week in previous years. AO streams have also been pretty fast at getting results this year from what I can make out, so I hope it's the same with us.

But once results are out it could be months on a panel waiting for them to take people on and I imagine there won't be much movement until its back into the office full-time, but I could be wrong there.

lizzyG08

Amazon88 wrote: »

Happy new year and congratulations! Sorry I don’t have any answers but are the interviews face to face in Dublin?

Thank you! The interviews are being conducted over Zoom with several board members and a representative of PAS. They’ll each be working from home.

lizzyG08

sectrd wrote: »

Same to you! I've my interview a few days earlier so I would guess they're spread out over a few days!

Going by previous years they seem pretty quick to process and get results out to people within a few weeks, sometimes even within a week in previous years. AO streams have also been pretty fast at getting results this year from what I can make out, so I hope it's the same with us.

But once results are out it could be months on a panel waiting for them to take people on and I imagine there won't be much movement until its back into the office full-time, but I could be wrong there.

Congratulations on making it to the interview stage! This was really helpful, thank you!

completedit

Does anybody have any advice for future TS positions. I got past the aptitude test but was too far down the OOM to be part of the selection process. I wouldn't mind having this as a medium-term ambition. I'm currently between jobs, not really working in the area I want to be in but on the job hunt. Wondering is there particular areas that I should be looking at or that would be beneficial to my future candidature. I am applying for EU jobs but so far proving to be extremely difficult and like the TS, they're long and drawn out so when you fail, it knocks you back quite a lot. I applied for the Bluebook internships thinking I had a good chance but got rejection emails last night.

PearseCork92

completedit wrote: »

Does anybody have any advice for future TS positions. I got past the aptitude test but was too far down the OOM to be part of the selection process. I wouldn't mind having this as a medium-term ambition. I'm currently between jobs, not really working in the area I want to be in but on the job hunt. Wondering is there particular areas that I should be looking at or that would be beneficial to my future candidature. I am applying for EU jobs but so far proving to be extremely difficult and like the TS, they're long and drawn out so when you fail, it knocks you back quite a lot. I applied for the Bluebook internships thinking I had a good chance but got rejection emails last night.

Some ideas:


- Think tanks (London and Brussels are riddled with them)
- Public relations or lobbying gigs in Brussels
- UN agencies (relative of mine worked with one as project manager for a couple of years in Africa during a career break from his main occupation)
- Journalism
- Irish government agencies abroad (IDA etc)
- Bone-up on in-demand languages (French, Arabic, Chinese, Spanish)
- Local staff at foreign embassies in Dublin (some of these like the US embassy can pay quite well)
- Background in law never hurts as well


But really, while all the above are nice to have, the DFA take all-comers once you jump through the testing hoops and appear to be of sound character and judgement. Follow your interests and just throw your hat in the ring. Diplomats have a fairly varied background for those that didn't enter straight from university.

velcro1994

Hi all, unfortunately I was late to seeing this job posting and missed the deadline.

Does anybody know how often this recruitment process occurs? Is it every year and what's the frequency? I've emailed the application email to see if I can get an insight off them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

HartsHat

velcro1994 wrote: »

Hi all, unfortunately I was late to seeing this job posting and missed the deadline.

Does anybody know how often this recruitment process occurs? Is it every year and what's the frequency? I've emailed the application email to see if I can get an insight off them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Every 2 years, usually.

mulligja

completedit wrote: »

Does anybody have any advice for future TS positions. I got past the aptitude test but was too far down the OOM to be part of the selection process. I wouldn't mind having this as a medium-term ambition. I'm currently between jobs, not really working in the area I want to be in but on the job hunt. Wondering is there particular areas that I should be looking at or that would be beneficial to my future candidature. I am applying for EU jobs but so far proving to be extremely difficult and like the TS, they're long and drawn out so when you fail, it knocks you back quite a lot. I applied for the Bluebook internships thinking I had a good chance but got rejection emails last night.

Recently had a good look at LinkedIn profile's of people who get Blue Book. Many have a done anywhere from 3-6 internships at various places already, and were more than a few with multiple LLMs from various high-level unis (LSE, College of Europe etc.). People without significant means to afford to do stuff like that are at somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to getting their foot in the door with Schumann or BB

Another tip that I think got mentioned in the thread already: apply outside the Commission and Parliament for an internship. European Economic and Social Council just opened up the applications for their October session, European Ombudsmann will open their applications Feb 1st.

Do you have decent Irish? I know 1-2 people who are now contract translators and will likely get made permanent once they get their level of French up to an adequate standard. The King's Inn even have made a postgrad programme for it (Irish legal translation or something like that).