Leinster v Saracens

AbusesToilets

AdamD wrote: »

Absolutely cannot blame the ref for this one. Leinster were shocking in the first half. Set piece and discipline nowhere near good enough. Vincent Koch has done Leinster in two years in a row, baffled he didn't get motm, third most tackles, plays 80 minutes and is the main reason for 7 scrum penalties.

Leinster not good enough since the restart and paid for it today. Keenan and Baird the two positives for me.

Was really disappointed with our mid field, we didn't attack them effectively at all. Drifted our wide repeatedly. Needed some forwards running hard lines to fix the defense.

Thought Doris was excellent. He made some pick and goes which made some vital meters. A tactic we should've used far more, given Saracens weren't committing to the rucks

Redgirl82

One thing, every penalty was given on the other side of the scrum, the ref never once moved to that side? Seems a little odd even if it was Leinster fault

Most refs would move to the problematic side to get a closer look

mike_cork

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Henshaw grabbed a Sarries player, threw him back onside when he was trying to block in the lead up to the first Leinster try, the ref was standing beside him, Henshaw said it to him and he just looked at him

That was just one of the issues.

Leinster lost and I don’t think it was the ref fault but saying the ref was not bad is 100% incorrect

Leinster should have been pinged on at least 2 occasions in the 2nd half for holding the jumper in the air in the line out. It was a deliberate tactic to stop the sarries counter drive. We can go back and forth on identifying missed penalties etc for both sides. At the end of the the day the best team won.

AbusesToilets

Redgirl82 wrote: »

One thing, every penalty was given on the other side of the scrum, the ref never once moved to that side? Seems a little odd even if it was Leinster fault

Most refs would move to the problematic side to get a closer look

Don't even know what the point of the assistant refs are. Absolutely useless.

Exclamation Marc

mike_cork wrote: »

I am not trying to poke the bear. Leinster are a quality team and the best team in ireland without question,and i say that as a die hard munsterman.

However I don't think the ref was that bad tbh.

Sexton clearly got hit high (and marginally late but it was so marginal, it could go either way), and the TMO had to call it as the referee missed it or deemed it not an issue.

Itoje had at least two high or seatbelt tackles yards away from the referee and they weren't called.

Wray clearly got over the ball at one point very legally and he called a penalty for Leinster.

He was terrible.

eagle eye

Well I'm no Leinster fan but the ref was horrendous. The scrum for Saracens late in the first half on their own five metre line where he gave them the penalty was disgraceful. Then in the build up to the last try before half time there was a clear obstruction by a Saracens player which wasn't called either.
It should have been a Leinster penalty in the five metre line and it should have been a Leinster penalty for obstruction in the build up to Saracens last try before halftime.
There was lots of other stuff but not as clear-cut as those two.

Leinster were very poor and it's hard to say they deserved to win that game but they do deserve to have it reffed properly.

New Era

sydthebeat wrote: »

When your scrum gets utterly destroyed you don't think much fault lies in the hands of the scrum coach????

Mcbride should be in for a hell of a time after that.

Robyn McBride is a very good coach so although it wasn't Leinster's day, nothing that happened today won't change my opinion on him and it was a great coup by the province to get the Welshman in the first place.

On a separate note I think everyone knows that Saracens are not the darlings, that the English media try to portray. As a Munster fan I put provincial rivalry to one side and always support all the other provinces, especially when in European action. Absolutely despise seeing sarries come out on top, they are the equivalent of what Patrick Reed or Bryson De Chambeau are to golf. The lack of humility from that crowd is just nauseating.

Hard luck Leinster still has been a really positive season for ye. Lots of young guys stood up throughout the season and Cullen and Lancaster continue to give youth a chance, like with Hugo Keenan at seasons end, a prime example.

Ryan Baird is just astonishing, incredible unit and very mobile on the pitch also. A second row partnership with himself and James Ryan for province and Ireland is something to look forward to in the coming months and beyond for sure.

A lot to ponder but let's hope that Ulster can produce something magical tomorrow, against Toulouse. A French team claiming the champions cup is now very short odds now IMO.

Guinness RFC

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

And Kelleher. There's a reason Herring is currently preferred for the national team. He's known as a good scrummaging hooker. He doesn't have the bells and whistles Ronan has, but youse might not have given away quite so many penalties today with him in the front row.

Interesting. How many penalties did Kelleher give away when he came on? You’re full of bluster and provincial point scoring without backing it up with facts. The game changed when Kelleher and Baird came on. That is not a coincidence. Zero missed throws also. And he added ballast in defence and attack.

Exclamation Marc

mike_cork wrote: »

Leinster should have been pinged on at least 2 occasions in the 2nd half for holding the jumper in the air in the line out. It was a deliberate tactic to stop the sarries counter drive. We can go back and forth on identifying missed penalties etc for both sides. At the end of the the day the best team won.

So you agree the referee was poor. Which is what you were arguing against. Christ.

AdamD

mike_cork wrote: »

Leinster should have been pinged on at least 2 occasions in the 2nd half for holding the jumper in the air in the line out. It was a deliberate tactic to stop the sarries counter drive. We can go back and forth on identifying missed penalties etc for both sides. At the end of the the day the best team won.

Which is funny because Leinsters maul defence was non existent

thomond2006

A weird time to talk positives but Hugo Keenan was immense. His double cover tackle in the second half saved a potential try as the kick itself was wayward and open to be punished. Today was a big step up and he performed really well considering the conditions.

Ryan Baird also played a huge part in Leinster's purple patch. Fardy will probably only be needed in a MOD type role over international windows as Baird looks the business and will likely be entrusted in the new season with the starting role.

TCM

pc7 wrote:

You wonder if the crowd were there could they have swayed it a bit that second half.

Yep, the crowd would have done the job. OMG grasping at straws.
Great result.

mike_cork

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

So you agree the referee was poor. Which is what you were arguing against. Christ.

No im saying he missed things,like any ref does in any game.
You play to the ref. Saracens did that better than leinster.

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

A weird time to talk positives but Hugo Keenan was immense. His double cover tackle in the second half saved a potential try as the kick itself was wayward and open to be punished.

Ryan Baird also played a huge part in Leinster's purple patch. Fardy will probably only be needed in a MOD type role over international windows as Baird looks the business and will likely be entrusted in the new season with the starting role.

Keenan's gone from a squad player to almost a lock in the back 3 since we've returned. Every game he's played he's been one of the best backs on the pitch.

pc7

New Era wrote: »

.

Ryan Baird is just astonishing, incredible unit and very mobile on the pitch also. A second row partnership with himself and James Ryan for province and Ireland is something to look forward to in the coming months and beyond for sure.
.

Loved after his error that Ryan kept talking to him and then Baird went and ripped the ball off sarries.

Exclamation Marc

mike_cork wrote: »

No im saying he missed things,like any ref does in any game.
You play to the ref. Saracens did that better than leinster.

Agenda v reality.

No point arguing with you.

Redgirl82

mike_cork wrote: »

Leinster should have been pinged on at least 2 occasions in the 2nd half for holding the jumper in the air in the line out. It was a deliberate tactic to stop the sarries counter drive. We can go back and forth on identifying missed penalties etc for both sides. At the end of the the day the best team won.

So you agree the ref was poor?
So why you say he wasn’t?

:-)

RugbyLover123

Regardless of the ref, that was a weakened Sarries team - there should be no excuses. Add Farrell to that team and it wins 7/8 times out of 10 against Leinster.

Only positives I can think of for Leinster, as another poster said, was Keenan was tidy. There seemed to be no plan after 2 phases.

WoollyRedHat

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

"Thinking they can start at a lower gear"??

I think you're ignoring that Saracens smothered Leinster who conversely kept failing (most frequently at the scrum).

There was no conscious slow start or arrogant approach to the game.

Complacency then? This isn't the first time we have danced with Saracens, we know what they're about.We were certainly overplayed that's evident.

mike_cork

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Agenda v reality.

No point arguing with you.

I dont have an agenda. I literally said Leinster are a brilliant team earlier in the thread.
I also said they deserved to lose today.

Not sure what kind of "agenda" that is.

Anyway,congrats on your deserved pro 14 victory this season and hard luck today. Im sure leinster will be there or thereabouts in europe next season

Bazzo

thomond2006 wrote: »

A weird time to talk positives but Hugo Keenan was immense. His double cover tackle in the second half saved a potential try as the kick itself was wayward and open to be punished. Today was a big step up and he performed really well considering the conditions.

Ryan Baird also played a huge part in Leinster's purple patch. Fardy will probably only be needed in a MOD type role over international windows as Baird looks the business and will likely be entrusted in the new season with the starting role.

Fardy probably should have been in that team ahead of Toner(with perfect hindsight).

tbm

Don’t get the clamouring for McCall. Look at the specimens he’s been able to coach? The game plan didn’t win the match today. Better players executing under pressure did.

Exclamation Marc

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Complacency then? This isn't the first time we have danced with Saracens, we know what they're about.We were certainly overplayed that's evident.

Maybe... They were just so poor. As you said they would have expected Saracens would come at them but they looked lethargic, devoid of ideas and losing concentration consistently.

Perhaps no Farrell made them too relaxed?

Just bad.

Tomtom364

tbm wrote: »

Don’t get the clamouring for McCall. Look at the specimens he’s been able to coach? The game plan didn’t win the match today. Better players executing under pressure did.

You could say the exact same thing about Cullen yet alot of people seem to think he ****s unicorn dust

Redgirl82

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Regardless of the ref, that was a weakened Sarries team - there should be no excuses. Add Farrell to that team and it wins 7/8 times out of 10 against Leinster.

Only positives I can think of for Leinster, as another poster said, was Keenan was tidy. There seemed to be no plan after 2 phases.

I don’t think the ref was the reason Leinster lost

We just didn’t seem up to speed compared to Sarries. Playing poor Pro14 teams doesn’t seem to be as competitive as playing decent English teams in term of prep. The empty stadium was a huge advantage to Sarries as well. They are used to playing with no fans

WoollyRedHat

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Maybe... They were just so poor. As you said they would have expected Saracens would come at them but they looked lethargic, devoid of ideas and losing concentration consistently.

Perhaps no Farrell made them too relaxed?

Just bad.

At least we don't have to worry about them next season!

Redgirl82

mike_cork wrote: »

I dont have an agenda. I literally said Leinster are a brilliant team earlier in the thread.
I also said they deserved to lose today.

Not sure what kind of "agenda" that is.

Anyway,congrats on your deserved pro 14 victory this season and hard luck today. Im sure leinster will be there or thereabouts in europe next season

Saying a ref is good and then a few posts later complaining about him I think is why people see a very clear agenda

Neil3030

I need to go back and see the Itoje intercept again in the first half. He is either superhuman (not ruling that out) or was clearly offside.

What was it, 3-6 at that point?

Would have been a completely different afternoon if we'd gone level with a man in their bin...

Redgirl82

I think everyone is now ABS fans

Anyone but Saracens

Redgirl82

Neil3030 wrote: »

I need to go back and see the Itoje intercept again in the first half. He is either superhuman (not ruling that out) or was clearly offside.

What was it, 3-6 at that point?

Would have been a completely different afternoon if we'd gone level with a man in their bin...

He was a mile offside

BT rugby are poor at European rugby because they just concentrate on selling the English league

They will always show preference to the English team In commentary

AbusesToilets

Having Ross Bryne on the bench was a big weakness. Hope his brother can push on this season. Nothing against him, but he offers nongame breaking ability. What I wouldn't give for Carberry

eagle eye

mike_cork wrote:

I dont have an agenda. I literally said Leinster are a brilliant team earlier in the thread. I also said they deserved to lose today.

Give over, you clearly have some sort of agenda.
The ref was horrendous.
I'm not a Leinster fan and I don't think they deserved to win the game either but the referee was fully responsible for them being down a further seven points at half time with a horrendous penalty decision in favour if Saracens at their own five metre line and then missing an obstruction a short time later in the build up to the last try before half time. He made done other horrendous decisions and missed loads of stuff too.

Tomtom364

Neil3030 wrote: »

I need to go back and see the Itoje intercept again in the first half. He is either superhuman (not ruling that out) or was clearly offside.

What was it, 3-6 at that point?

Would have been a completely different afternoon if we'd gone level with a man in their bin...

McGrath fumbled the ball at the base of the Ruck, it went back between his feet but it was clearly out

Paul Smeenus

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Interesting. How many penalties did Kelleher give away when he came on? You’re full of bluster and provincial point scoring without backing it up with facts. The game changed when Kelleher and Baird came on. That is not a coincidence. Zero missed throws also. And he added ballast in defence and attack.

Sorry, Mrs Kelleher.

I was under the impression that youse gave away some scrum penalties at the end there, when he was on. Did he throw a lineout past the second man?

Someone was saying Porter want good enough, and I said that Kelleher isn't great in the scrum either.

Unclench your sphincter and handle the loss with a bit of bloody grace.

declanflynn

Redgirl82 wrote: »

He was a mile offside

BT rugby are poor at European rugby because they just concentrate on selling the English league

They will always show preference to the English team In commentary

How does anyone listen to Craig Doyle, he should be on the shoping channel or anywhere bar a sports programme

Dravokivich

Redgirl82 wrote: »

I don’t think the ref was the reason Leinster lost

We just didn’t seem up to speed compared to Sarries. Playing poor Pro14 teams doesn’t seem to be as competitive as playing decent English teams in term of prep. The empty stadium was a huge advantage to Sarries as well. They are used to playing with no fans

When you say poor pro14 teams, it sounds like italians or South Africans. But it was both Munster and Ulster, twice.

randomname2005

eagle eye wrote: »

Give over, you clearly have some sort of agenda.
The ref was horrendous.
I'm not a Leinster fan and I don't think they deserved to win the game either but the referee was fully responsible for them being down a further seven points at half time with a horrendous penalty decision in favour if Saracens at their own five metre line and then missing an obstruction a short time later in the build up to the last try before half time. He made done other horrendous decisions and missed loads of stuff too.

I thought I was the only one who thought that was obstruction

Exclamation Marc

randomname2005 wrote: »

I thought I was the only one who thought that was obstruction

I thought it may have been obstruction or crossing but with no mention of it even by O'Driscoll, I just assumed I was wrong

ScrubsfanChris

Tomtom364 wrote: »

McGrath fumbled the ball at the base of the Ruck, it went back between his feet but it was clearly out

This

McGrath "played" the ball. The ruck was over.
Either people are disillusional, blind or don't understand the laws.

Redgirl82

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Having Ross Bryne on the bench was a big weakness. Hope his brother can push on this season. Nothing against him, but he offers nongame breaking ability. What I wouldn't give for Carberry

H Byrne coming on in a game like today would be a disaster

To be honest I am not sure Sexton should have started, Byrne might have been better

Redgirl82

Dravokivich wrote: »

When you say poor pro14 teams, it sounds like italians or South Africans. But it was both Munster and Ulster, twice.

And?

Based on performance today, a Sarries team with a huge amount of players gone are far far superior

TomsOnTheRoof

Sarries were the better side. Leinster lost the match up front. Having said that Gauzere is a poor ref. He got a number of decisions wrong for both sides, the most blatant of which was a perfectly legal turnover from Wray. Unfortunately when he's reffing the breakdown (along with most other things) becomes a lottery. Regardless I don't think it would have made a difference.

Dravokivich

Redgirl82 wrote: »

And?

Based on performance today, a Sarries team with a huge amount of players gone are far far superior

They were both in the semi finals and the one in the final. Calling them poor pro14 teams is nonsensical. As they are clearly among the top pro14 teams.

AbusesToilets

Redgirl82 wrote: »

H Byrne coming on in a game like today would be a disaster

To be honest I am not sure Sexton should have started, Byrne might have been better

Hence the point on him developing.

Heres Johnny

Some soccer mentality in here lads, blame the ref, sack the coaches, retire the players. Leinster well beaten on the day. They'll say that themselves.

razorblunt

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Ireland should’ve been all over Mark McCall to replace Schmidt.

Would depend on how many apartments the IRFU could co-sign with him.

Buer

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Sexton clearly got hit high (and marginally late but it was so marginal, it could go either way), and the TMO had to call it as the referee missed it or deemed it not an issue.

Itoje had at least two high or seatbelt tackles yards away from the referee and they weren't called.

Wray clearly got over the ball at one point very legally and he called a penalty for Leinster.

He was terrible.

The referee clearly asked the TMO to check the hit on Sexton almost instantly as play progressed.

razorblunt

Neil3030 wrote: »

I need to go back and see the Itoje intercept again in the first half. He is either superhuman (not ruling that out) or was clearly offside.

What was it, 3-6 at that point?

Would have been a completely different afternoon if we'd gone level with a man in their bin...

Yeah, he was offside, he jogged to catch it. You wouldn’t expect BT to cover it and BOD certainly isn’t going to go against the paymasters.

TCM

Dravokivich wrote:

They were both in the semi finals and the one in the final. Calling them poor pro14 teams is nonsensical. As they are clearly among the top pro14 teams.

Pro 14 is simply a B rated competition.

degsie

Yes I'm a little annoyed and largely disappointed, but the better team won on the day. 2 weeks and it all kicks off again....