Asti strike action

Bobtheman

Dav010 wrote: »

And this is why the public will think you are a bunch of snowflakes.

I think you are misjudging public sentiment if you go forward with this attitude. Everyone is worried about going back to work, about family members, about paying their mortgage and groceries. In the past, most people would be mildly interested in what you do, as long as it didn’t effect them to much. But considering we all have had to go back to work even though there are health concerns, I am certain there will be no sympathy for you, in fact, I think there will be anger. This could actually be the opportunity the Government has been waiting for to slap down the unions, this time with public support.

You don’t give a flying f**k about the effect on our children and jobs, with public anger directed toward you, you reap what you sow.

I'm afraid you are grossly misguided. Firstly the last ten years saw a massive erosion in teachers conditions. We were told exceptional circumstances etc even though the IMF left in 2014. We still have financial emergency legislation. There was 3 days strike roughly in this period.
Are you keeping up ? We didn't strike that much but got two pay scales and a permanent emergency.
Now we have been forced into working conditions replicated nowhere else.
So forgive me if it's hard not to get worked up by threats of a loss of public support. This same public voted for parties that wrecked the economy and thought we'd have a soft landing.
You don't win disputes by public support. Can you name one dispute where that occurred????
Look at the cops - they committed treason by refusing to work thus potentially creating anarchy . Result - they got what they wanted. How many poor cops do you know ?
So forgive me if I don't shake at the thought of loss of public support.

Bobtheman

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Here's the hint, we wouldn't have to back down if the TUI joined us.

The TUI took a thousand members during the last dispute. From the ASTI. Thanks comrade's. You had to eject these members because what you did was illegal in trade union terms.You were forced to do that.
Hardly any strike action from either union last ten years. Result - two pay scales / erosion of conditions and the continuing existence of FEMPI
A plague on both your houses but at least the ASTI pitched their tent.
I know you are Asti Sligo I'm referring to the TUI backstabbers

Bobtheman

I'm voting yes but I fear my colleagues lack balls . Just don't listen to non trade unionists who talk about public support being crucial but in the end the same joe public doesn't care if teachers live or die because of covid or whether you have a **** job with **** conditions.
Ask anybody on a zero hours contract.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

I'm voting yes but I fear my colleagues lack balls . Just don't listen to non trade unionists who talk about public support

Yeah, it's funny how people prattle on about losing public support and assume such advice has any meaning. It's not like the public is out there assessing and analysing every grievance on its merits with an absolute grasp of the detail, and occasionally decides that it does support us.

Public support means Jack Sh*t. Like all industrial action the outcome is about leverage. An abstraction such as public support is about as useful as the rounds of applause (where have they gone by the way? Is their work suddenly less worthy?) were for health services staff a few months ago.

Dav010

Bobtheman wrote: »

I'm afraid you are grossly misguided. Firstly the last ten years saw a massive erosion in teachers conditions. We were told exceptional circumstances etc even though the IMF left in 2014. We still have financial emergency legislation. There was 3 days strike roughly in this period.
Are you keeping up ? We didn't strike that much but got two pay scales and a permanent emergency.
Now we have been forced into working conditions replicated nowhere else.
So forgive me if it's hard not to get worked up by threats of a loss of public support. This same public voted for parties that wrecked the economy and thought we'd have a soft landing.
You don't win disputes by public support. Can you name one dispute where that occurred.
Look at the cops - they committed treason by refusing to work thus potentially creating anarchy . Result - they got what they wanted. How many poor cops do you know .
So forgive me if I don't shake at the thought of loss of public support.

I think you are missing the point here.

Covid is now so ingrained in the consciousness that few people focus on what life was like before mid March, people are concerned now about their health, their jobs, their finances, how they are going to pay mortgages, how they are going to pay for third level, and of course, their kids education.

There is not one person in this country who has gone back to work that isn’t concerned about their health, but they have to work.

As I said in an earlier post, prior to this, most people would have a passing interest in strikes if it didn’t affect them to much, but teachers striking now will close schools, more time off for our kids, more time off, unpaid, for the parents. That will very much affect us all, and as we are having to accept the concerns that you are striking about, there will be no sympathy from the public, the media, nor the Government. You may not need the public to support you, but the public anger will not be directed at the Government, you risk it being directed at you, therefore there will be no pressure on the Government to cave.

As for not being replicated anywhere else, get down off the cross, are you more at risk than someone working in an office with 20 other people, or a factory floor with a 100?, are you more at risk than a waitress taking orders from 100 different people per night or a taxi driver picking up drunk passengers? Are you more at risk than hospital or care home staff who don’t have enough PPE or the kid serving ques of customers standing there longer than they should?

What exactly is it that makes your conditions worse than anyone else’s? My son is in fifth year, his temperature is taken each morning entering school, he wears a mask all day, his teachers wear masks and some wear visors, they sit at least two meters from the students and everyone carries hand sanitisers, is this different from any workplace? Why do you feel your conditions are inferior to others?

Padre_Pio

Dav010 wrote: »

I

As for not being replicated anywhere else, get down off the cross, are you more at risk than someone working in an office with 20 other people, or a factory floor with a 100?, are you more at risk than a waitress taking orders from 100 different people per night or a taxi driver picking up drunk passengers? Are you more at risk than hospital or care home staff who don’t have enough PPE or the kid serving ques of customers standing there longer than they should?

Well... perhaps yes.

Dav010

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Well... perhaps yes.

In what way Padre?

Rosita

Dav010 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point here.

Covid is now so ingrained in the consciousness that few people focus on what life was like before mid March, people are concerned now about their health, their jobs, their finances, how they are going to pay mortgages, how they are going to pay for third level, and of course, their kids education.

There is not one person in this country who has gone back to work that isn’t concerned about their health, but they have to work.

As I said in an earlier post, prior to this, most people would have a passing interest in strikes if it didn’t affect them to much, but teachers striking now will close schools, more time off for our kids, more time off, unpaid, for the parents. That will very much affect us all, and as we are having to accept the concerns that you are striking about, there will be no sympathy from the public, the media, nor the Government. You may not need the public to support you, but the public anger will not be directed at the Government, you risk it being directed at you, therefore there will be no pressure on the Government to cave.

As for not being replicated anywhere else, get down off the cross, are you more at risk than someone working in an office with 20 other people, or a factory floor with a 100?, are you more at risk than a waitress taking orders from 100 different people per night or a taxi driver picking up drunk passengers?

You really need to go into a classroom like I do with 30 kids with no social distancing, masks removed as soon as they go out, and no temperature taking whatsoever to realise how silly this question actually is.

Twenty people in a socially distanced office, or a waitress working ina structured environment irrespective of the number is a very different situation.

Just because you desperately need your kid in school doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.

Treppen

Dav010 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point here.

Covid is now so ingrained in the consciousness that few people focus on what life was like before mid March, people are concerned now about their health, their jobs, their finances, how they are going to pay mortgages, how they are going to pay for third level, and of course, their kids education.

There is not one person in this country who has gone back to work that isn’t concerned about their health, but they have to work.

As I said in an earlier post, prior to this, most people would have a passing interest in strikes if it didn’t affect them to much, but teachers striking now will close schools, more time off for our kids, more time off, unpaid, for the parents. That will very much affect us all, and as we are having to accept the concerns that you are striking about, there will be no sympathy from the public, the media, nor the Government. You may not need the public to support you, but the public anger will not be directed at the Government, you risk it being directed at you, therefore there will be no pressure on the Government to cave.

As for not being replicated anywhere else, get down off the cross, are you more at risk than someone working in an office with 20 other people, or a factory floor with a 100?, are you more at risk than a waitress taking orders from 100 different people per night or a taxi driver picking up drunk passengers? Are you more at risk than hospital or care home staff who don’t have enough PPE or the kid serving ques of customers standing there longer than they should?

What exactly is it that makes your conditions worse than anyone else’s? My son is in fifth year, his temperature is taken each morning entering school, he wears a mask all day, his teachers wear masks and some wear visors, they sit at least two meters from the students and everyone carries hand sanitisers, is this different from any workplace? Why do you feel your conditions are inferior to others?

Thats all fine and dandy with adults in the workplace. Protection is provided.
Contact tracing health advice is followed.
If you have an underlying serious condition you are provide for, in some cases if your family has, then you might be given leave.

I'm happy to go in because my school is pretty good I think (for now). Also anyone with underlying condition is looked after (discreetly IYKWIM) and others chip in to help.

But to hear some of the other stories in other schools, I'd happily go on strike to ensure the issue is highlighted.

It's a tricky situation in Irish schools because government/department doesn't - want to- run them. So you have mavericks going nuts as it's their own personal sandpit.

Because our school is relatively 'getting on with it' my colleagues are throwing their eyes up to heaven at the thoughts of a strike, but they need to listen to their fellow teachers in other schools. A union has to have national solidarity, not let others in other schools look after themselves. It's not just about MY school or YOUR son's school.

Treppen

Dav010 wrote: »

We all need our kids in school, we all need to be in our jobs, we don’t need this sideshow now. A school is supposed to be a structured environment and schools reopening came as a surprise to no one. There isn’t a worker in the country who doesn’t share your concerns about their workplace.

Your response to my question about how your conditions are inferior to other workers is that kids take their masks off, no temperature taking and no social distancing? Surely that is up to your school to organise, the Government can’t to that for you.

It's about more than that, have you read all the demands?

And yes it is up to schools to organise, but some are not doing that, or can't, government has to step in.

Plus there are a lot of teachers with life threatening conditions being told by their consultants and GPs not to go to work, but medmark are saying you'll be marked awol if you dont go in. I think many members of the public think all teachers just want to stay in the scratcher and get paid. I want to go to work every day. I like going to work every day.

rainbowtrout

Dav010 wrote: »

We all need our kids in school, we all need to be in our jobs, we don’t need this sideshow now. A school is supposed to be a structured environment and schools reopening came as a surprise to no one. There isn’t a worker in the country who doesn’t share your concerns about their workplace.

Your response to my question about how your conditions are inferior to other workers is that kids take their masks off, no temperature taking and no social distancing? Surely that is up to your school to organise, the Government can’t to that for you.

Organise? You say that like it's something schools are just not bothering with. We are. Teenagers are not the most compliant group on the planet. They do not see the dangers, and they are coming from homes where many of them are not being encouraged to wear masks or social distance.

I was on lunch duty yesterday and it was like herding cats. You go up to a group of students who are in a huddle, you get them to move away from each other, some of them will have taken their masks off, you get them to put them back on.. you move off to a different group, you've only moved 10 feet, you turn back to look at the group you've just left and they are back in a huddle and masks have been removed. Rinse and repeat for 40 minutes.

There are hand sanitiser dispensers all over our school, they are at all the entrances but unless a member of staff is standing at the door and making each child stop to sanitise their hands, they won't do it.

eastie17

Treppen wrote: »

It's about more than that, have you read all the demands?

And yes it is up to schools to organise, but some are not doing that, or can't, government has to step in.

Plus there are a lot of teachers with life threatening conditions being told by their consultants and GPs not to go to work, but medmark are saying you'll be marked awol if you dont go in. I think many members of the public think all teachers just want to stay in the scratcher and get paid. I want to go to work every day. I like going to work every day.

Why can’t ye do what most work places do and deal with local management to make them sort themselves out? Go on strike in individual schools if needs be. Always with the nuclear option

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

Padre, you posted that teachers are more at risk, granted there have been many posts about teachers conditions, but how are they more at risk than other workers? I’m not being antagonistic, I am however skeptical about the claims being made.

I do have a viewpoint, one I’m sure that will be shared by a lot of parents.

Some ways teachers are more at risk:(post primary perspective)

1. Not being identified as close.contacts in spite of the layout of many Irish schools meaning this simply cant be true

2. No standardised PPE

3. Too many people in too small a space for too long a time (30ish people in classeooms at 1m or less in many cases, classes vary between 40 mins and an hour)

4. Parents sending students to school unwell

5. Most irish schools not setup for social distancing in corridors, many cannot implement alternatives such as one.way systems

6. Many schools are in older buildings and/or working out of prefabs therfore tend to be poorly ventilated

7. Teachers deemed as very high risk by their consultant being told to work anyway as Medmark have decided they are "only" high risk therfore must attend school

8. Lack of transparency about how cases are dealt with in school

9. Dealing with teenagers, it is in their nature to make bad decisons/not comply from time to time. All part of the growing up process but does increase the risk factor

10. Number of contacts, at an estimate most teachers are in contact with anywhere between 100 and 270 students a day for a prolonged period of time

That's just off the top of my head

Rosita

Dav010 wrote: »

Your response to my question about how your conditions are inferior to other workers is that kids take their masks off, no temperature taking and no social distancing? /QUOTE]

Yeah, that was my response. Like many teachers I reckon would take 1000 words for me to do justice to much of the basic practice in my workplace that is not remotely good enough. But given that social distancing and mask-wearing is an expected given in most environments at this stage I didn't see the need to point out the fact that the sign on the photocopier (frequently touched area please sanitise) is not accompanied by anything with which to sanitise it, or that I seem at least once a day to gave to go looking for paper to wipe down surfaces. I could go on.

The irony of your position is that by shutting up and getting on with it now we make it more likely that schools will have to close. That's the funny thing. Those who want schools open should be supporting all safety measures for schools.

khalessi

Dav010 wrote: »

I have to wait until teachers strike to see if parents take a negative view of their actions, which I expect they will given the relief felt when schools reopened and work resumed, but you are saying parents today want teachers to strike, what is your source?

So you saying they won't support it is just air.

Thank you


No I said they supported the strike, they can see the conditions, they know of the clusters and the fact they are being actively ignored. They see the numbers in schools are rising which is being actively ignored. They realise that children need an education but have said they cant blame teachers if they strike, as they feel the conditions aren't safe for their children and they know the teachers are trying to create a positive atmosphere and make it as safe as possible without support from the government.

They can see Enya/Norma is missing for the most part and they are not impressed. QUB epidemiologist linked numbers rising in Newry and Derry to schools reopening, it cant continue to be ignored.

I am on multiple sites where it is topic for conversation and I was surprised to see them saying they could not blame teachers for striking, considering the rising numbers. Also in conversation with parents irl, which was also surprising as most dont know I teach.

Rosita

Dav010 wrote: »

Rosita wrote: »

I’m not saying you should shut up, by all means, scream from the rooftops, I am saying that shutting down our education system because your school can’t address the issues you listed is reckless.

We can leave it as it is and it'll be shut down by Christmas anyway.

khalessi

Dav010 wrote: »

How to you prove something which hasn’t happened yet? You said that “ a lot” of parents support strikes now, so it’s anecdotal?

And yours i have to wait for the strike is pure rubbish youy havent a clue at least I am talking to people about it.

You looking for studies. hahahahahahaha

Go look at the various parent sites and FB sites if you want to see how people are feeling. THey do not like what is happening in schools and that it is being ignored by officialdom. Or mad idea chat to people, I have parents saying it to me and it isnt my union. It is conversation on the side of the GAA pitch, people are worried about the rising numbers and can see the link to schools.

So dont dimiss ancedotal when you have wait to see how people react, you have been saying parents wont like it but you have no proof. Or will you pull a 15000 word study out of an orifice.

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

Would most of these not be down to individual schools designing safety protocols and implementing them?

In relation to teachers who are high risk, you cannot put that forward as an inferior working condition. In every workplace high risk employees have had to stay off work and sign on PUP.

How does striking improve old school buildings?

The PPE is an interesting one, what PPE do you feel a teacher should be have to feel safe?

What do you think schools can do to address what I stated?

I never said striking could improve any of the above I was simply outlining the risk fcators. I'm not in ASTI but I despairof people who think schools are comparable to most other workplaces. They are not.

PPE is not being provided for teachers as standard (some schools used the extra allocated funding for this others didn't as the funds were used for other things) this means some teachers are wearing visors only, some cloth masks, some disposable masks. I believe a standard should be set and masks provided for. Same with perspex screens. Some schools have installed them, some have not, their use is sporadic. Also on the subject of PPE, our SNAs are often in very close proximity with students more so even than us and should possibly be provided with medical grade masks given the nature of their work.

In relation to High Risk employees you can only be signed off in schools if you are deemed Very High Risk. If you haven't seen the school guidelines take a look, they're eye opening.

spurious

Parents who want to discuss this from a parenting point of view, please use the Parenting forum.

This thread is about and for teachers, in of all places, the Teaching and Lecturing Forum.

It is not a 'who is more at risk' competition.

Again, please report (and then block) those who try to drag this off topic, bash teachers, whinge about teachers, generalise about all schools, usual dross....

More of this rubbish and we will look into approving posts before they become visible.

Bobtheman

Look we all know how this thread and strike will play out
Asti will probably do 3 days max
The government will grant some minior concessions.
The TUI will sit idly by and do SFA.
Posters here who have never been in a union will warn of loss of public support but have nothing to say about two pay scales or temp contracts. The same joe public has nothing to say about zero hour contracts or any other form of worker exploitation so you'd be a fool to worry about joe public.
I sincerely wish it could be different. That the ASTI would at least go out for a minimum of six days with TUI support. New teachers need to take over the union. End of story . Stop watching Netflix and trimming your beards.
Not all of you have sat by but most of you.

Mardy Bum

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look we all know how this thread and strike will play out
Asti will probably do 3 days max
The government will grant some minior concessions.
The TUI will sit idly by and do SFA.
Posters here who have never been in a union will warn of loss of public support but have nothing to say about two pay scales or temp contracts. The same joe public has nothing to say about zero hour contracts or any other form of worker exploitation so you'd be a fool to worry about joe public.
I sincerely wish it could be different. That the ASTI would at least go out for a minimum of six days with TUI support. New teachers need to take over the union. End of story . Stop watching Netflix and trimming your beards.
Not all of you have sat by but most of you.

You are being optimistic. I doubt there will even be industrial action never mind a strike. There will be whole schools where staff feel management have done the best they can voting against industrial action.

Bobtheman

I'm predicting a yes vote of around 55%. I previously said 60% but perhaps that's too optimistic.
I think teachers in general are disgruntled and the yes vote will reflect that.

solerina

Bobtheman wrote: »

I'm predicting a yes vote of around 55%. I previously said 60% but perhaps that's too optimistic.
I think teachers in general are disgruntled and the yes vote will reflect that.

I would like to think you are right but postal ballots give a very low turn out, those in my school that we’re talking about this seemed to only focus on the word STRIKE and were absolutely not going on strike so would vote no....they seemed to miss the whole point of the ballot imo

acequion

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look we all know how this thread and strike will play out
Asti will probably do 3 days max
The government will grant some minior concessions.
The TUI will sit idly by and do SFA.
Posters here who have never been in a union will warn of loss of public support but have nothing to say about two pay scales or temp contracts. The same joe public has nothing to say about zero hour contracts or any other form of worker exploitation so you'd be a fool to worry about joe public.
I sincerely wish it could be different. That the ASTI would at least go out for a minimum of six days with TUI support. New teachers need to take over the union. End of story . Stop watching Netflix and trimming your beards.
Not all of you have sat by but most of you.

Not only that, Joe public has completely normalised worker exploitation and accuses any worker who won't accept it of entitlement. A very depressing state of affairs.

I would also tend to agree with the other posters that teachers won't vote for industrial action and just see the word STRIKE and are running scared. The union needs to express and explain it better.

lulublue22

acequion wrote: »

Not only that, Joe public has completely normalised worker exploitation and accuses any worker who won't accept it of entitlement. A very depressing state of affairs.

I would also tend to agree with the other posters that teachers won't vote for industrial action and just see the word STRIKE and are running scared. The union needs to express and explain it better.

I heard a snippet on the radio the other day - what stood out to me was how poorly the ASTI spokesperson ( missed who they were) presented the issues. He was not clear or concise in how he spoke and I was no closer to understanding the core points of the ASTI concerns when he finished. I couldn’t help thinking that they really need to work on their media skills.

2011abc

lulublue22 wrote: »

I heard a snippet on the radio the other day - what stood out to me was how poorly the ASTI spokesperson ( missed who they were) presented the issues. He was not clear or concise in how he spoke and I was no closer to understanding the core points of the ASTI concerns when he finished. I couldn’t help thinking that they really need to work on their media skills.

Was thinking the TUI lad was even worse .They need to work on their skills .Full stop.A cynic would say the unions are being run into the ground as those at the top will be well out of town when the 5h1t hits the fan .They wont care if membership leaves in droves .Suits govt agenda .

cmssjone

lulublue22 wrote: »

I heard a snippet on the radio the other day - what stood out to me was how poorly the ASTI spokesperson ( missed who they were) presented the issues. He was not clear or concise in how he spoke and I was no closer to understanding the core points of the ASTI concerns when he finished. I couldn’t help thinking that they really need to work on their media skills.

It was probably Kieran Christie, he really does not come across well on tv/radio. TBH, nearly every time I’ve seen an ASTI representative in the media, they seem to do a p1ss poor job trying to articulate any of the issues they are trying to resolve.

Treppen

Ya it's obvious from the getgo that some ASTI leadership don't want a strike. The demands included everything plus the kitchen sink, lumping equal pay in with IT and Covid just shows they want to must the waters.

Kieran Christe is as flippen watery himself in media. Im starting to think Pat King was actually better!!

acequion

Treppen wrote: »

Ya it's obvious from the getgo that some ASTI leadership don't want a strike. The demands included everything plus the kitchen sink, lumping equal pay in with IT and Covid just shows they want to must the waters.

Kieran Christe is as flippen watery himself in media. Im starting to think Pat King was actually better!!

No way!! if you've ever worked closely with both of them you'd see how much better Kieran is. He is loyal to the members and will always respect the democratic decision. Unlike Pat King who often did his best to subvert it.:mad:
There is also nobody in leadership trying to stop a strike if that's what the members decide to do.

Re their media skills, you have a point, though some are a lot better than others. One got himself badly caught out in an interview by not realising that restaurant tables are also at 1metre. Cringe So deffo a lot of work to be done there.

Icsics

acequion wrote: »

No way!! if you've ever worked closely with both of them you'd see how much better Kieran is. He is loyal to the members and will always respect the democratic decision. Unlike Pat King who often did his best to subvert it.:mad:
There is also nobody in leadership trying to stop a strike if that's what the members decide to do.

Re their media skills, you have a point, though some are a lot better than others. One got himself badly caught out in an interview by not realising that restaurant tables are also at 1metre. Cringe So deffo a lot of work to be done there.

Pat King did his level best to destroy the union, an absolute disgrace of a leader