Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

Sonics2k

So, I'm currently looking at a career change. I've done a lot of management and sales work, but it's never made me happy and far too often the companies make cuts and job losses kick in.

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

Link here

Year 1: €234.12 per week
Year 2: €341.19 per week
Year 3: €483.96 per week
Year 4: €582.66 per week

So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Montage of Feck

After four years in college you'd be in debt, think of it as earning as your learning.

BrianBoru00

Permanent
Pensionable.
Its 29000, not 23000.
You ll have a qualification and can do bits on the side and make another 10-20000 handy by that stage of you build your business up gradually over that time

17larsson

When you're qualified (as an electrician anyway), if you get the union rate you would be on €48k per year. That's before any overtime or travel money.

You also get a lot more money in those four years than you do at college

Green farmer

Year 4 is just over 30k a year. Not bad if you've a qualification that you can take elsewhere. Compare that to going back to college and earing zero for the same time frame

Sonics2k

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

Bubbaclaus

Am I missing something with the 23k? 582.66 per week is 30,300 per year.

Bubbaclaus

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Am I missing something with the 23k? 582.66 per week is 30,300 per year.

Yeah, no idea where they're getting 23k from.

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

Going in with zero experience or qualifications I don't know what you can expect. It ramps up quickly enough imo.

bobbyy gee

in a few years it will be a dead trade you will need computer degree as most cars are run by computers and soon with electrical cars
very little repairs as there are no engines to go wrong

now if you buy a Japanese or korean car don't expect apart from Nissan or Mazda
to have to do any repairs for 5 years
toyota.honda.hyundai

if you study electric cars you will be ok

micks

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

while there are some older apprentices the vast majority are under 20 when they start so its a lot more than an 18 yo gets on the dole

dont know where 23k from but its after 3 years not 4 that 4th yr commences and in your example you get ~30k
Then most likely ~20-25 % rise for full rate

There's also likely expenses on top of that - maybe do more research

eurokev

I don't know what you are complaining about. You're getting paid to learn

I went to college out of school, cost a lot - I didn't finish it, it wasn't for me.

Finished up an apprenticeship about 18months ago at 33. Love the work, earning great money now.

Sure the first 18-24months were hard, but I saved up 15k to get me through the low pay period, so I could afford to keep up with my mortgage, and renting away when in block release. But 3rd and 4th year as an apprentice weren't bad, and most employers will give you a bit of OT to help you out.

mariaalice

Do what lots of young people doing an apprentice do, take a part-time job delivering pizzas until they get to the stage of doing some nixers.

If that is an apprenticeship with the council hundreds will be applying for it.

El Tarangu

If you were going back to college, instead of doing an apprenticeship, you wouldn't get paid anything.

Many people who study work a part-time job - this could keep you going. It's only for a few years, after all.

eurokev

micks wrote: »

while there are some older apprentices the vast majority are under 20 when they start so its a lot more than an 18 yo gets on the dole

dont know where 23k from but its after 3 years not 4 that 4th yr commences and in your example you get ~30k
Then most likely ~20-25 % rise for full rate

There's also likely expenses on top of that - maybe do more research

In my class of 12 going through my apprenticeship, 8 of us were 28 or over on completion.

I can't emphasise enough the doors and opportunities a good apprenticeship opens up. It's far better than 95% of college courses imo.

The short term pain of low pay is soon forgotten, and more and more "mature" people are realising this.

Sonics2k

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

So? If someone is interested in getting a trade but a couple of years at low pay while training is enough to make them give up on it and work in Aldi then bully for them and all the best to them.
Outisde Dublin obviously but with 2 level 8s and some professional qualifications in a high-demand sector it took another couple of years for me to be on more than someone in year 4 of your example would be making.

shesty

I took an "Analyst" position in a public sector body back in 2011 when there was nothing else to do.Starting salary, 29k a year.I needed to have a engineering, financial or law degree to get the job.I had to take it because the ecomony was shot and I was unemployed a year at that stage.

A relative is in a similar position - qualified pharmacist, in a PS body, with 4 years experience behind her, starting salary 30k.Left a job earning 50k a year to take it, to get different exprience and move more towards a role she wanted.

You need to take the long term view.Centra or wherever might be good now, but in 10, 20 years, it won't be much use.Apprenticeship gives you training, something to put on your CV and potentially further training opportunities to push yourself into other roles.Also, does the job come with an incremental scale??Something to check.You will have a permanent job and a good pension, mightn't seem like much now but it is something that no money can buy when things are bad, and as you get older.

There may not be many doing apprenticeships,but the flip side of that is that maybe not enough people who might be interested in apprenticeships understand that the long term view is more important than getting higher cash in hand straight away.

smelly sock

Difference going to college is youcan be out on the piss every night for 3 or 4 years and Mammy and Daddy pay for it. If your an apprentice you have to put up serious ****e.

El Tarangu

Sonics2k wrote: »

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

It's not "work" - you're being paid to train. If you decided to go back to study to be an engineer or a doctor, you wouldn't get paid anything.

smellyoldboot

Sonics2k wrote: »

So, I'm currently looking at a career change. I've done a lot of management and sales work, but it's never made me happy and far too often the companies make cuts and job losses kick in.

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

Link here



So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Earning while you're learning. Go to college and get grant money if you're lucky for 4 years and start in the same roughly 30k with nothing in between. And sparks and plumbers that are any use are on far far more than that after 4 years. Id suggest a bad attitude rather than anything wrong with the rates. You gotta learn to walk first.

Outkast_IRE

I completed my apprenticeship in plumbing and yeah the rates are tough for 1st and 2nd year but you are really only learning the basics at that stage . I would strongly argue that even after 4 years the majority of lads have alot to learn and just cause you finish your apprenticeship doesn't mean you are brilliant at your trade at the end of it.

The rates are tough but the year doesn't be long passing. I have always felt the more you earn the more you spend. , You will cut your cloth to suit the first few years.

Sonics2k

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Earning while you're learning. Go to college and get grant money if you're lucky for 4 years and start in the same roughly 30k with nothing in between. And sparks and plumbers that are any use are on far far more than that after 4 years. Id suggest a bad attitude rather than anything wrong with the rates. You gotta learn to walk first.

Right, first of all I've already been through an apprenticeship, started at the age of 18 just after my leaving cert. I didn't enjoy it so I moved into a general door to door sales job, and over the course of many many years became a regional manager for a bloody popular finance company and a lot more. I know all about learning to walk first and training being important, so lets not act like I'm being entitled here.

It's also daft to say (another poster above) said that it's training and not work. Of course it's work. Go ask any apprentice tradesperson if they actual work. They train by working.

I am simply pointing out that the entry level pay is extremely low compared to other jobs, which also can lead to careers.

smellyoldboot

Sonics2k wrote: »

Right, first of all I've already been through an apprenticeship, started at the age of 18 just after my leaving cert. I didn't enjoy it so I moved into a general door to door sales job, and over the course of many many years became a regional manager for a bloody popular finance company and a lot more. I know all about learning to walk first and training being important, so lets not act like I'm being entitled here.

It's also daft to say (another poster above) said that it's training and not work. Of course it's work. Go ask any apprentice tradesperson if they actual work. They train by working.

I am simply pointing out that the entry level pay is extremely low compared to other jobs, which also can lead to careers.

So don't apply then. There will be plenty willing to take your place and accept the rates on offer.

Sonics2k

smellyoldboot wrote: »

So don't apply then. There will be plenty willing to take your place and accept the rates on offer.

Are you just willingly not reading correctly? I literally said I was still interested in it.

I am saying that I can understand why younger people are not moving to trades when the entry level rates are so low. I'm genuinely struggling to see why you can't comprehend this.

Birdsong

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Rates of pay has very little to do with why school leavers don't consider an apprenticeship. Your comparing apprenticeship an apprenticeship v working in centra , that's not a good comparison.

An apprentice is comparable to starting a 4 year degree except at the end the apprentice at the age of 22/23 has a qualification recognised across the world and 4 years work experience, and good hourly rate. Their friend who went to college has had to work part-time, had debts and no real work experience, more than likely will be joining a graduate scheme.

smellyoldboot

Sonics2k wrote: »

Are you just willingly not reading correctly? I literally said I was still interested in it.

I am saying that I can understand why younger people are not moving to trades when the entry level rates are so low. I'm genuinely struggling to see why you can't comprehend this.

Doesn't make any sense. If the choice is between college or trades, you go with what suits you best. You get paid nothing in college, earn a decent living afterwards, you get paid a small but increasing amount in an apprenticeship, earn a decent living afterwards.

The type of young person who sees the Dole or minimum wage work as a more worthwhile route then either is probably a waster who is best served by taking that route anyway as they would be unlikely to put the work in that's required to build a decent career.

Quadrivium

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Your age isn't important but the trade you choose to pursue is, if you are passionate about mechanical stuff and cars, oil, dirt and hard grind for not great money then become a mechanic, however there are much better trades to choose such as plumbing or electrician which offer much better money and career opportunities. I'd stay away from the wet trades such as Bricklaying and Plastering, they offer good money when things are good but they are first for the chop as soon as construction slows down.

The first year of an apprenticeship is the hardest, nixers start coming in as soon as you know a bit about the trade which is usually towards the middle of the second year.

Quadrivium

Deleted User wrote: »

So? If someone is interested in getting a trade but a couple of years at low pay while training is enough to make them give up on it and work in Aldi then bully for them and all the best to them.
Outisde Dublin obviously but with 2 level 8s and some professional qualifications in a high-demand sector it took another couple of years for me to be on more than someone in year 4 of your example would be making.

Not comparable, you weren't busting your back, arms or hands physically every day to earn that wage. You can't compare physical labour to office work, particularly in regards to the long term negative effects on the body.

Quadrivium

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Earning while you're learning. Go to college and get grant money if you're lucky for 4 years and start in the same roughly 30k with nothing in between. And sparks and plumbers that are any use are on far far more than that after 4 years. Id suggest a bad attitude rather than anything wrong with the rates. You gotta learn to walk first.

Let's get real, a trade is a decent wage but the job is not a profession, a qualified plumber on €800 per week fully qualified will probably never earn more even after 20 years. A University educated Engineer or Surveyor will be in a profession with a defined pathway for their career that will eventually lead to increased responsibility and salary which after the same 20 years will likely be €80k to €100k per year.

There are pro's and con's to both but let's not be kidding ourselves here pretending a back breaking trade is somehow superior to a profession that requires a University education because it's not.

You should be on a **** wage when you know **** all about what you are doing. When you know what you are doing, you earn a **** tonne. Sounds very fair.

Quadrivium

Birdsong wrote: »

Rates of pay has very little to do with why school leavers don't consider an apprenticeship. Your comparing apprenticeship an apprenticeship v working in centra , that's not a good comparison.

An apprentice is comparable to starting a 4 year degree except at the end the apprentice at the age of 22/23 has a qualification recognised across the world and 4 years work experience, and good hourly rate. Their friend who went to college has had to work part-time, had debts and no real work experience, more than likely will be joining a graduate scheme.

That's nonsense. As someone who has done both there is simply no comparison.

A trade is good for some people because as you say it offers paid training and if you choose the right trade you might get relative job security but it has its limitation, trades can become very monotonous and they also have an earnings ceiling that is just above the average industrial wage plus working conditions are generally crap and hard on the body.

Career focused degrees such as law, engineering, IT, surveying etc. all offer interesting and challenging careers with defined career paths which offer increased autonomy and salary up to an over €100k in senior roles as well as benefits that simply don't exist in the trades. You also don't have to break your body physically humping tonnes of construction materials every day up to your late 60's when you retire....if you live that long

miezekatze

Apprenticeship wages tend to be low as you're basically 'paying' for your training out of your wages, and you can't expect a full wage either as you're not fully trained yet. I'm from a country where apprenticeships are a lot more common than here, they exist for office jobs etc too, not just trades. The rates you quoted look very decent to me for apprenticeship rates, in Germany for example 500-1000 per *month* would be standard depending on the type of apprenticeship. Of course you'll earn more after completing the apprenticeship.

smellyoldboot

Quadrivium wrote: »

Let's get real, a trade is a decent wage but the job is not a profession, a qualified plumber on €800 per week fully qualified will probably never earn more even after 20 years. A University educated Engineer or Surveyor will be in a profession with a defined pathway for their career that will eventually lead to increased responsibility and salary which after the same 20 years will likely be €80k to €100k per year.

There are pro's and con's to both but let's not be kidding ourselves here pretending a back breaking trade is somehow superior to a profession that requires a University education because it's not.

I'm well aware of that tbh. I took the engineering route myself for just that reason but there's a trade-off involved and it depends on your priorities and what you want out of a career.

Like even including the apprentice rates a spark will spend the first 6 to maybe 8 years out earning an engineer (remember 4 years not earning in college). After that there's no comparison assuming the engineer is not useless.

Not everyone is geared for/would be capable of doing a professional degree either. If you haven't the head for it or even just prefer more hands on work the trades are a decent option.

Jim2007

Sonics2k wrote: »

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Which lot of young people have you been speaking to??? I can't say I know a single young person that is as shorting sighted as you are suggesting..

BrianBoru00

Quadrivium wrote: »

That's nonsense. As someone who has done both there is simply no comparison.

A trade is good for some people because as you say it offers paid training and if you choose the right trade you might get relative job security but it has its limitation, trades can become very monotonous and they also have an earnings ceiling that is just above the average industrial wage plus working conditions are generally crap and hard on the body.

Career focused degrees such as law, engineering, IT, surveying etc. all offer interesting and challenging careers with defined career paths which offer increased autonomy and salary up to an over €100k in senior roles as well as benefits that simply don't exist in the trades. You also don't have to break your body physically humping tonnes of construction materials every day up to your late 60's when you retire....if you live that long

Come back in ten years and tell us all about that ceiling.

At that stage we'll be starting to feel the pinch from the crash. There simply won't be enough electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

In any case the earnings of good tradespeople is a lot higher than 40K. After 20 years a lot of them will have an employee as well as an apprentice or two and will have a business earning them 100K per year as well - Also offering increased "autonomy" running their own business.


To suggest that they are very monotonous is ignoring the fact that any job can become monotonous- many plumbers roles have expanded to included green energy projects 0 who knows where they ll be able to expand to in 20 years.

You've basically rubished "trade" careers by comparing the average conditions there with the best conditions in "professiona" careers

_Brian

Sonics2k wrote: »

So, I'm currently looking at a career change. I've done a lot of management and sales work, but it's never made me happy and far too often the companies make cuts and job losses kick in.

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

Link here



So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Not going to comment about mechanics but any sparks I know that are recently qualified and decent are making really good money. It consider it the most robust trade regarding careers

eurokev

eurokev wrote: »

....................
I can't emphasise enough the doors and opportunities a good apprenticeship opens up. It's far better than 95% of college courses imo....................

What's a good apprenticeship?
IMO the best apprenticeship is E&I and most of the the folk who go on to work at levels above tools in that game get further qualifications and they end up the same as the lads who just did E&I courses at college who never did the trade years.

noodler

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

Mental, mental attitude tbh.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh damn, that was a brainfart in the OP. Knew it was €29k but spaced it like a doofus.

I understand the points people are making, and personally I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a few years. All I'm saying is the entry level rates are very low compared to other work.

Absolutely we can rightly say there's a good qualification at the end of it, but for a lot of younger people they simply can't afford to try and live on that much, when places like Centra or Aldi are paying much more.

I think you might be cherry-picking this 'other work'.

I worked a few years in a Centra. I then partially lived off my savings from that minimum wage job while I did a year's internship on €20k. Company kept me on to start a training contract and my starting salary was €24k.

Ultimately I think the question is, is €29k a fair living wage for someone who has gone through the effort of learning and growing? I'd say yes.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

..........



So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a. Sure you can argue it's a trade, but how far can it really go. I'm hardly surprised that a lot of younger lads aren't bothering with trades anymore, it's a lot of back breaking work for sod all pay.

Sure, €23k a year is decent when you're 20 years old, but what about when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old? Surely the pay won't get much better, how are you expected to start a family or even consider buying a home?

Loads of mechanics leave the trade because the pay is terrible. There are tyre fitters earning more money then mechanics. If 30k/year doesn't tickle your fancy don't become a mechanic. Public service gigs would be handy compared to garage work in the real world also.

Ottoman_1000

You are not comparing like for like. Apprenticeships are generally aimed at 17/18 year leaving cert graduates who will actually earn a wage throughout their 4 years and when qualified will generally get a hefty pay increase depending on what apprenticeship they choose. Instead of the person whose goes to 3rd level, gets himself in debt for 4 years and is then walking into a graduate salary (average graduate salary is €23k currently)! So to say a lot of younger people cant afford to live off it and therefore don’t go down that path does not make sense. The reason younger people don’t go down the route is not monetary but they just don’t find the jobs attractive… if I had my time all over again I would have went ahead with my electrical apprenticeship when I finished school…

eurokev

Augeo wrote: »

What's a good apprenticeship?
IMO the best apprenticeship is E&I and most of the the folk who go on to work at levels above tools in that game get further qualifications and they end up the same as the lads who just did E&I courses at college who never did the trade years.

Yeah I did e&i - companies are crying out for people with practical experience

eurokev

eurokev wrote: »

Yeah I did e&i - companies are crying out for people with practical experience

To do what roles?
By practical experience do you mean wiring panels, fault finding, installing instruments and calibrations?

enricoh

I don't believe the pay rates stop people from doing apprenticeships.
I reckon the cyclical boom n bust nature of construction in Ireland would put more people off especially lads mid 20's on with commitments.

krissovo

Sonics2k wrote: »

With that in mind I thought long and hard and thought I'd check out doing a mechanics apprenticeship (at the age of 36). However, with Cork County Council announcing they're now hiring, I decided to check it out and read their information.

I got out of the mechanical engineering game at your age, no way would I consider it for a career change this late. Most the lads I trained with are either running their own independent garages, Service & fleet managers or selling windows & finance packages. Some have stuck it out and are now the crusty old timer and supervising the shop floor. We all have some scars from our time, backs, knees & skin conditions to name a few.

Also as a mechanic in this day and age you become a part replacer after a computer tells you to and more often than not these parts are placed where even a gynecologist would struggle to get them. Gone are days of rebuilding engines, gearboxes or pumps as the labor rate is too high plus in the world of electrification its a dying job.

aido79

krissovo wrote: »

I got out of the mechanical engineering game at your age, no way would I consider it for a career change this late. Most the lads I trained with are either running their own independent garages, Service & fleet managers or selling windows & finance packages. Some have stuck it out and are now the crusty old timer and supervising the shop floor. We all have some scars from our time, backs, knees & skin conditions to name a few.

Also as a mechanic in this day and age you become a part replacer after a computer tells you to and more often than not these parts are placed where even a gynecologist would struggle to get them. Gone are days of rebuilding engines, gearboxes or pumps as the labor rate is too high plus in the world of electrification its a dying job.

It sounds like you're getting mixed up between mechanical engineer and mechanic.

smellyoldboot

aido79 wrote: »

It sounds like you're getting mixed up between mechanical engineer and mechanic.

Someone is definitely having you on if you're getting scarred hands/body parts and you believe you're a mechanical engineer in fairness.

aido79

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Someone is definitely having you on if you're getting scarred hands/body parts and you believe you're a mechanical engineer in fairness.

And I definitely wouldn't be bringing my car to a mechanical engineer for a service or driving it across a bridge designed by a mechanic.

kippy

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh folks, please don't misunderstand me. I get that down the line the prospects are much better.

I'm just stating that the entry level pay for the position is very low. Just €30 more than the social welfare payment, and it's easy to understand why a lot of young people end up not doing a trade.

Your age is the main reason you are having an issue with this, but there's many people would bite your hand off to get onto a four year course, with barely a leaving cert (not sure if that has changed) with a set amount of money you earn per week, up until the point that you leave the course with a set salary and no debts.

There are massive waiting lists for some of the trades, maybe not some of the wetter/dirtier/harder work but thats more because of the nature of the job than the pay.

HoggyRS

I remember being in phase 4 in carlow IT getting paid 500 quid a week back in the day. Lived the high life , we laughed at the students going to college for free. Still think its good coin for an apprentice.

Aleece2020

If you think apprenticeship rates are awful, just wait until you hear about the unpaid internships that University students do. You'll be beside yourself in shock OP.