Apprenticeship rates are just depressing

Outkast_IRE

Aleece2020 wrote: »

If you think apprenticeship rates are awful, just wait until you hear about the unpaid internships that University students do. You'll be beside yourself in shock OP.

Your not wrong there , for all that's wrong with the construction industry in this country I don't think I have ever seen internships advertised. But alot of other industries that have startup tech based ventures think it's a God given right to have internships.

My cousin graduated with a master's in nutritional science a few years back and had to intern at a tech company developing a nutritional app . I thought it was ridiculous they should be outright banned , now she is talking about doing a conversion course in validation and again interning at the end of it. Crazy carry on

OscarMIlde

Green farmer wrote: »

Year 4 is just over 30k a year. Not bad if you've a qualification that you can take elsewhere. Compare that to going back to college and earing zero for the same time frame

You're getting paid while you learn and you have a great earning potential afterwards. It's a lot better than some other industries. The starting salary for Postdoctoral scientists in Ireland is just under 34, 000 a year, and that is after a four year degree, possibly a masters, and a PhD which is three-five years to complete. It would definitely be hard for the first few years but would pay off later.

Quadrivium

OscarMIlde wrote: »

You're getting paid while you learn and you have a great earning potential afterwards. It's a lot better than some other industries. The starting salary for Postdoctoral scientists in Ireland is just under 34, 000 a year, and that is after a four year degree, possibly a masters, and a PhD which is three-five years to complete. It would definitely be hard for the first few years but would pay off later.

A PostDoc scientist must not have much value in the labour market then.
Graduate quantity surveyors are getting more than that straight out of university and would be on double that within 10 years.

A lot of people appear to comparing degrees with trades without considering that not all degrees are considered that valuable to the labour market.

A law degree and a training contract could set you on track for €100k career within 10 years but a degree in culinary arts is gonna leave you with a minimum wage job and no progression.

A trade is not comparable to a profession requiring a degree for numerous reasons, one being physical labour demands, this can literally destroy your body and leave you like a cripple before age 50. Then there's the wage ceiling, there is very little scope for increased wages once qualified, sure you can do nixers but you're never gonna earn as much as a Lawyer, Engineer or Business Professional.

In my opinion trade rates are crap and have barely increased in the last 14 years, the cost of living has increased so the wages should rise to match that at least. The same applies to in demand professions requiring a degree.

Quadrivium

Quadrivium wrote: »

A PostDoc scientist must not have much value in the labour market then.
Graduate quantity surveyors are getting more than that straight out of university and would be on double that within 10 years.

A lot of people appear to comparing degrees with trades without considering that not all degrees are considered that valuable to the labour market.

A law degree and a training contract could set you on track for €100k career within 10 years but a degree in culinary arts is gonna leave you with a minimum wage job and no progression.

A trade is not comparable to a profession requiring a degree for numerous reasons, one being physical labour demands, this can literally destroy your body and leave you like a cripple before age 50. Then there's the wage ceiling, there is very little scope for increased wages once qualified, sure you can do nixers but you're never gonna earn as much as a Lawyer, Engineer or Business Professional.

In my opinion trade rates are crap and have barely increased in the last 14 years, the cost of living has increased so the wages should rise to match that at least. The same applies to in demand professions requiring a degree.

Outside of contract work or moving upstairs a lot of sectors have pretty low ceilings for earnings, especially outside of Dublin. In IT there's money alright but unless you want to do management stuff and/or live in Dublin it's not easy to get a well-paying secure job for the medium-long term.

Quadrivium

Deleted User wrote: »

Outside of contract work or moving upstairs a lot of sectors have pretty low ceilings for earnings, especially outside of Dublin. In IT there's money alright but unless you want to do management stuff and/or live in Dublin it's not easy to get a well-paying secure job for the medium-long term.

The average salary for a real estate, quantity or building surveyor in Ireland is €74k, that goes up to around €120k once management level is reached.

Law offers salaries of around €70k within 5 years and €200k plus if you get to partner level.

Project Management and Engineering are both similar in salary to the above, then there's banking, accountancy and finance which also pay well.

There are some very well paying, secure careers available if you choose the right degree. IT is swamped with imported labour, the race to the bottom has begun in that sector and it will only get worse.

BrianBoru00

Quadrivium wrote: »

The average salary for a real estate, quantity or building surveyor in Ireland is €74k, that goes up to around €120k once management level is reached.

Law offers salaries of around €70k within 5 years and €200k plus if you get to partner level.

Project Management and Engineering are both similar in salary to the above, then there's banking, accountancy and finance which also pay well.

There are some very well paying, secure careers available if you choose the right degree. IT is swamped with imported labour, the race to the bottom has begun in that sector and it will only get worse.

Not according to jobs.ie or payscale.com.

approximate figures from Payscale.com
Building Surveyor 32 k
Quantity Surveyor 40K
Senior Quantity Surveyor 66k
Electician 40K
Plumber 34K

Now if you go to scsi.ie you'll find an average salary of 70k odd but that survey is more likely to be aimed at the upper end of earners who are more likely to be in such organisations.
Similarly the payscale one - reviews more likely to be left for negative feedback so could possibly average them out to a Surveyor salary of 68K . . .

There is still ingrained snobbery towards trades which as I said earlier is leading us to a gaping hole where we won't have enough electricians, plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc.
Cars will still require the likes of brakes pads exhausts ,oil changes, DPF repair etc. etc. etc. so whlie car mechanic jobs are far more computer based there is still a requirement for them.

and plumbing / carpentry / electricians as well as car mechanics are not back breaking trades. It's physcial labour but its not hod carrying

Danny552

Hi folks

I'm looking to do an electrician apprenticeship just turned 29 , i wasn't sure if i was to old or not but have talked to a few people who started in there 30s and even 40s so I'm not worried about my age now i know in the long run it will be worth it .

I was working in a career for what's involved the money wasnt bad but not much room to progress. I couldn't see Myself doing it for the next 30 years I worked as a alarm installer for a while which has made me want to become a electrician as only so far you can go with alarms .

I know the money isnt great for the first 2 years going by the apprenticeship website its 274.95 a week starting off. But I was left money a few months ago which has given me the opportunity to do an apprenticeship and not worry about the salary.

I'm looking into E&L but seems to be hard to get into, is it possible to go into it later on during a electrician apprenticeship?

Danny552

Danny552 wrote: »

...........
I'm looking into E&L but seems to be hard to get into, is it possible to go into it later on during a electrician apprenticeship?

You could do a level 6 instrumentation course after you qualify as an electrician.

Places hire lads with level 6 certs as Instrument Techs for cals etc etc... they obviously can't go at anything but extra low voltage stuff.... so an electrician that also has a level 6 in Instrumentation would be well qualified.

Quadrivium

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Not according to jobs.ie or payscale.com.

approximate figures from Payscale.com
Building Surveyor 32 k
Quantity Surveyor 40K
Senior Quantity Surveyor 66k
Electician 40K
Plumber 34K

Now if you go to scsi.ie you'll find an average salary of 70k odd but that survey is more likely to be aimed at the upper end of earners who are more likely to be in such organisations.
Similarly the payscale one - reviews more likely to be left for negative feedback so could possibly average them out to a Surveyor salary of 68K . . .

There is still ingrained snobbery towards trades which as I said earlier is leading us to a gaping hole where we won't have enough electricians, plumbers, carpenters, car mechanics etc.
Cars will still require the likes of brakes pads exhausts ,oil changes, DPF repair etc. etc. etc. so whlie car mechanic jobs are far more computer based there is still a requirement for them.

and plumbing / carpentry / electricians as well as car mechanics are not back breaking trades. It's physcial labour but its not hod carrying

The graduate rate for all surveyors is in the mid €30's, a chartered surveyor would be on mid €50's and senior surveyors would be earning in the €80k range payscale is totally useless as a guide for salaries. The upper end of surveyors are earning in excess of €100k. You need to do your research before contradicting people.

You can't have done much work in the trades if you think carpentry work isn't back breaking on a building site or if you think Mechanical work is handy.

Most trades offer crap conditions and mediocre pay, of course there will always be a requirement for trades people but the wage and conditions will have to improve if more people are to be attracted to them.
Hod carrying is hard work but again, nowhere near as hard or skilled as the trade of Bricklaying.

krissovo

aido79 wrote: »

It sounds like you're getting mixed up between mechanical engineer and mechanic.

Not quite, I was in R&D for the UK military, construction plant mainly but anything from Land Rover adapting to a fire truck, bomb disposal robots to remote control armoured D8 caterpillar used in mine clearance. We did our own spanner work

Danny552

Augeo wrote: »

You could do a level 6 instrumentation course after you qualify as an electrician.

Places hire lads with level 6 certs as Instrument Techs for cals etc etc... they obviously can't go at anything but extra low voltage stuff.... so an electrician that also has a level 6 in Instrumentation would be well qualified.

Thanks for the advice, how long would that take ?

Danny552

Danny552 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice, how long would that take ?

Not sure to be honest, you could do the level 6 cert at night whilst you do the trade by day. You'd definitely get it done within the 4 years.

the level 6 would be two years fulltime by day ....... there's a part time springboard one that's less then two years ........ Certificate in Industrial Instrumentation and Automation .......... https://springboardcourses.ie/details/8146

You'd need to really want it to manage both at the same time IMO, an electrical apprenticeship could involve a lot of pulling cables etc for a while and the level 6 bit whilst not being rocket science would entail a bit of effort too. Not at all insurmountable of course.

BrianBoru00

Quadrivium wrote: »

The graduate rate for all surveyors is in the mid €30's, a chartered surveyor would be on mid €50's and senior surveyors would be earning in the €80k range payscale is totally useless as a guide for salaries. The upper end of surveyors are earning in excess of €100k. You need to do your research before contradicting people.

You'd do well to take your own advice. I linked to a commonly used website which admittedly is not verifiable but it gives a fair enough comparison between different jobs.
You've not provided any source.
This thread is about entry rates for a trade but your harping on about the top earning potential in the most lucrative professions there is and you've suggested that there isn't the potential for making good earnings in the trades.
After 20 years a mechanic could have built up a fine business, be earning 20-30k from government contracts and another 30-40k from local customers.
A plumber could have three vans on the road and 4-5 employed and earning well over 100K.

Quadrivium wrote: »

You can't have done much work in the trades if you think carpentry work isn't back breaking on a building site or if you think Mechanical work is handy.

I didn't say either of those things.
But you're painting a picture of trades which though may have been traditional is very outdated and your ignorance of the opportunities and potential for people with trades is staggering.

If I were to take your approach - these chaps have done quite well as brick layers. https://www.thecomergroup.com/news/from-plastering-to-property-moguls. Not all blocklayers are billionaires but if they build their business they likely will have several people working for them after 20 years.

Bricklaying is a lot more physically intensive than plumbing or electrics but then again so are a lot of farming jobs.

Quadrivium wrote: »

A law degree and a training contract could set you on track for €100k career within 10 years but a degree in culinary arts is gonna leave you with a minimum wage job and no progression.
[/B]

No its not.
Chefs are in high demand currently.
With a degree there are several avenues you could go down including hotel management which can command 6 figure salaries.

Your painting a picture that there are no options to diversify from what you study in college or what trade you pick and that if you do choose a trade you need to spend the rest of your life doing backbreaking work which is very narrow minded.

BrianBoru00

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

................... harping on about the top earning potential......................

No its not.
Chefs are in high demand currently.
With a degree there are several avenues you could go down including hotel management which can command 6 figure salaries................

Most chefs are paid badly.
Most hotel managers aren't on anywhere near 6 figure salaries.

BrianBoru00

Augeo wrote: »

Most chefs are paid badly.
Most hotel managers aren't on anywhere near 6 figure salaries.

and most quantity surveyors aren't on anywhere near 6 figure salaries.
Did you have a point?

BrianBoru00

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

and most quantity surveyors aren't on anywhere near 6 figure salaries.
Did you have a point?

You are mentioning someone else was "harping on about the top earning potential" but then did the very same thing.
With Covid19 I think you'll find chefs are not at all in high demand also.

crazy_kenny

If you want to earn decent money out of an apprenticeship either a manufacturing electrician or fitter is the way to go. Easily €80k a year on shift in a unionised plant.

crazy_kenny

crazy_kenny wrote: »

If you want to earn decent money out of an apprenticeship either a manufacturing electrician or fitter is the way to go. Easily €80k a year on shift in a unionised plant.

Lots of folk don't want to work shift........... to gross €80k on shift without overtime your basic would want to be over €50k (which is attainable no doubt) ....... you'd be on 24/7 pattern (33% premium)and would get 3 hours time and a half a week at shift as you'd average a 42/hour week........ likely work half of the ten public holidays/year.

In places with unions with an overtime culture you can add €20k+ easily enough by doing a 12 hour shift extra every fortnight........ decent if it suits you.

Most lads working with the major contractors are on €50k ish basic, charged out at €80k to the client.

Spanish Eyes

Wish you well OP. Just saying, plumbers and sparks are impossible to get these days, but I have no idea how you would enter either of those apprenticeships.

Car mechanics will not be as much in demand in a few years with Ecars and the likes of computerised diagnostics in a car. But I don't want to put you off your dream either.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Wish you well OP. Just saying, plumbers and sparks are impossible to get these days, but I have no idea how you would enter either of those apprenticeships...........

Starting point.........http://www.apprenticeship.ie/en/apprentice/Pages/ApprenticeInfo.aspx


https://joneseng.com/walk-in-interviews-for-plumbing-electrical-apprenticeships-in-dublin-and-cork/

From 2018 admittedly but if you want to be a plumber or an electrician you need to get networking with the employers and find out when they are hiring.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Am I missing something with the 23k? 582.66 per week is 30,300 per year.

Yeah, the OP needs to finish basic maths in primary school before considering an apprenticeship.

BrianBoru00

Augeo wrote: »

You are mentioning someone else was "harping on about the top earning potential" but then did the very same thing.
With Covid19 I think you'll find chefs are not at all in high demand also.

I don't think you understand the expression; I quoted the exact point I was referencing from the "someone else" and simply made the point that good earning potential is not restricted to a narrow band of degrees

With Covid19 there may not be any demand for solicitors, accountants, or quantity surveyors either but the fact remains that for the hospitality sector there is a shortage of trained chefs

aido79

krissovo wrote: »

Not quite, I was in R&D for the UK military, construction plant mainly but anything from Land Rover adapting to a fire truck, bomb disposal robots to remote control armoured D8 caterpillar used in mine clearance. We did our own spanner work

If you had have finished that course would you have received a degree in mechanical engineering?

Quadrivium

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

You'd do well to take your own advice. I linked to a commonly used website which admittedly is not verifiable but it gives a fair enough comparison between different jobs.
You've not provided any source.
This thread is about entry rates for a trade but your harping on about the top earning potential in the most lucrative professions there is and you've suggested that there isn't the potential for making good earnings in the trades.
After 20 years a mechanic could have built up a fine business, be earning 20-30k from government contracts and another 30-40k from local customers.
A plumber could have three vans on the road and 4-5 employed and earning well over 100K.



I didn't say either of those things.
But you're painting a picture of trades which though may have been traditional is very outdated and your ignorance of the opportunities and potential for people with trades is staggering.

If I were to take your approach - these chaps have done quite well as brick layers. https://www.thecomergroup.com/news/from-plastering-to-property-moguls. Not all blocklayers are billionaires but if they build their business they likely will have several people working for them after 20 years.

Bricklaying is a lot more physically intensive than plumbing or electrics but then again so are a lot of farming jobs.



No its not.
Chefs are in high demand currently.
With a degree there are several avenues you could go down including hotel management which can command 6 figure salaries.

Your painting a picture that there are no options to diversify from what you study in college or what trade you pick and that if you do choose a trade you need to spend the rest of your life doing backbreaking work which is very narrow minded.

This isn't an academic paper therefore I don't need to supply reference material, would you like it in harvard style too :rolleyes:

Unlike you I am a trade qualified Bricklayer with many years experience at all levels in the construction industry, I'm also degree educated in several relevant subjects therefore what I say is based on real life, first hand experience not hearsay or something I read on a crappy website with a notorious reputation for not being accurate.

Trades are ok but there are many people choosing trades who would be better served pursuing higher education just like there are many people pursuing higher education who would be better suited to a trade.

The money in trades is limited, sure the odd one like me can clean up and do well but for every one like that there are 20 who will never earn more than €45k per year working in crap conditions with terrible pension entitlements and no bonus structure.

Wages for trades have not gone up to match the demand for the skills or the cost of living, I was earning more pw as a Bricklayer 14 years ago than the best Bricklayers today could earn in a week and a half.

I've also worked in an office environment and it was very cushy in comparison to site work both mentally and physically.

Anyone claiming that a degree in culinary arts or gender studies has the same value in the labour market as a degree in engineering or law is simply talking nonsense.

Danny552

Augeo wrote: »

Not sure to be honest, you could do the level 6 cert at night whilst you do the trade by day. You'd definitely get it done within the 4 years.

the level 6 would be two years fulltime by day ....... there's a part time springboard one that's less then two years ........ Certificate in Industrial Instrumentation and Automation .......... https://springboardcourses.ie/details/8146

You'd need to really want it to manage both at the same time IMO, an electrical apprenticeship could involve a lot of pulling cables etc for a while and the level 6 bit whilst not being rocket science would entail a bit of effort too. Not at all insurmountable of course.

Would it be possible to move to another company that did E&L then just carry on the apprenticeship, iv heard you can still get into it after you qualifed as a electrician.

Danny552

What would you recommend industrial or domestic electrician apprenticeship, is it possible to move companies while in an apprenticeship that would just do domestic/ commercial or industrial work.

aido79

Danny552 wrote: »

Would it be possible to move to another company that did E&L then just carry on the apprenticeship, iv heard you can still get into it after you qualifed as a electrician.

I presume you mean E&I(electrical and instrumentation). It would depend on what stage of your apprenticeship you moved to the other company. The off site modules would be different for E and I than for an electrician.
I got into instrumentation after I qualified as an electrician but not in Ireland so it was a little bit different.

The best route in Ireland if you can't get an E&I apprenticeship seems to be the one that has been mentioned already which is the level 6 in Instrumentation. I'm not sure if it is possible to do it alongside an apprenticeship as some of the colleges seem to require you to have a trade cert to apply for the course.
I would be of the opinion that the E&I apprenticeship is a much better route as the practical skills and experience gained would be more beneficial than what you might learn by doing the level 6.

aido79

Danny552 wrote: »

What would you recommend industrial or domestic electrician apprenticeship, is it possible to move companies while in an apprenticeship that would just do domestic/ commercial or industrial work.

I would definitely recommend an industrial apprenticeship over a domestic but there are some benefits to starting off with a domestic company and changing to industrial. It's very easy to get bored of domestic work whereas there is a lot more variety in industrial.
It's relatively easy to move from a domestic company to an industrial especially in the first couple of years.

Danny552

Danny552 wrote: »

Would it be possible to move to another company that did E&L then just carry on the apprenticeship, iv heard you can still get into it after you qualifed as a electrician.

Yeah..... Loads of E&I folk have done that on the way.

Ultimanemo

Sonics2k wrote: »

So after 4 years, you're finishing up on €23,000 p/a.

To start that at the age of 36 is tough

BrianBoru00

Quadrivium wrote: »

This isn't an academic paper therefore I don't need to supply reference material

so....no, you can't back up what your saying..... that's fine, it may be be just based on your experience but if you look back at your posts I think you'll see they've been quite disrespectful towards trades people.

Quadrivium wrote: »

Anyone claiming that a degree in culinary arts or gender studies has the same value in the labour market as a degree in engineering or law is simply talking nonsense.

I'd agree with you. Don't recall anyone saying it had the same value - do you?
Unless you're referring to my contradicting your initial point - i.e. that a degree in culinary arts

Quadrivium wrote: »

"leaves you with a minimum wage job and no progression"=

which I simply said was not true.

Look i'm getting a little bored of the thread now so I'm unfollowing but I would just ask that if your giving advice then at least do so with accurate verifiable information. salaries and roles vary wildly even within trades.

You've suggested that only 1 in twenty people clean up in the trades. That may be but its also the same for other professions -not everyone is "cleaning up".

Denzel123

On apprenticeship rates I think it’s fair for a young person out of school or in their twenties living at home with parents.
I understand it’s a different story when you have a family but as you get up to 3rd year the money is better and you are able to do work outside your apprenticeship.

heffo500

It's a pity some of the theory couldn't be done via an evening class that an older entrant to an apprenticeship could complete some of the theory and passing exams on it while maintaining full employment.

Danny552

Electrician rates. Effective: 01 September 2019

Phase 2 €274.95
Phase 4 €412.23
Phase 6 €595.53
4th Year €733.20

Going by older pay rates it has gone up a good bit.
You have to look past the pay for the first 18 months and think of the end result, well worth it I think with great opportunities in the future.

aido79

heffo500 wrote: »

It's a pity some of the theory couldn't be done via an evening class that an older entrant to an apprenticeship could complete some of the theory and passing exams on it while maintaining full employment.

I think this would only take a few months at most off a 4 year apprenticeship so wouldn't be a huge advantage. Even when an apprentice is doing block release only part of what they are doing is theory. There's quite a bit of practical work to be learned during block release.

Quadrivium

Apprenticeships in the UK are run differently to in Ireland and better in my opinion, the full apprenticeship usually only take 3 years and is of the same standard as the Irish craft qualifications.
Maybe the OP could get an NVQ 2 part time distance learning from the UK in Electrical trades then pursue an apprenticeship in Ireland from 2nd or 3rd year.
Check this out OP https://www.ableskills.co.uk/electrician-training-courses/city-guilds-2330-level-2-electrical-course/
https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/pages/become-an-electrician

aido79

Quadrivium wrote: »

Apprenticeships in the UK are run differently to in Ireland and better in my opinion, the full apprenticeship usually only take 3 years and is of the same standard as the Irish craft qualifications.
Maybe the OP could get an NVQ 2 part time distance learning from the UK in Electrical trades then pursue an apprenticeship in Ireland from 2nd or 3rd year.
Check this out OP https://www.ableskills.co.uk/electrician-training-courses/city-guilds-2330-level-2-electrical-course/
https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/pages/become-an-electrician

I'm not sure I would agree with this to be honest.
Someone who does this 15 day course can wire a house:
https://www.ytatraining.com/electrical-courses/domestic-electrical-installer-10-day-course/

Would you like to know your house was wired by someone whose only electrical qualification was from this course?

Quadrivium

aido79 wrote: »

I'm not sure I would agree with this to be honest.
Someone who does this 15 day course can wire a house:
https://www.ytatraining.com/electrical-courses/domestic-electrical-installer-10-day-course/

Would you like to know your house was wired by someone whose only electrical qualification was from this course?

If a qualification is NVQ accredited then it's of the same level as the Irish qualification. A lot of the Irish apprenticeship time is wasted doing labouring rather than learning, we all know that. In reality the apprenticeship could be completed in 2 to 3 years max.

The link you shared is not relevant to the discussion as it doesn't lead to an NVQ.

aido79

Quadrivium wrote: »

If a qualification is NVQ accredited then it's of the same level as the Irish qualification. A lot of the Irish apprenticeship time is wasted doing labouring rather than learning, we all know that. In reality the apprenticeship could be completed in 2 to 3 years max.

The link you shared is not relevant to the discussion as it doesn't lead to an NVQ.

Labouring is part of the learning process in most construction apprenticeships but there are plenty of apprentices who don't have to go through that. As a blocklayer would you allow someone with only 2 years of experience to build your house?

The link I shared is relevant as it shows what a shambles the UK system is if someone can perform the duties of an electrician after doing a 15 day course with no previous experience.

aido79

aido79 wrote: »

...........
Would you like to know your house was wired by someone whose only electrical qualification was from this course?

Wouldn't a full house require inspection by an electrician?

"The skills and qualifications gained on this course will enable you to carry out domestic electrical work as an electrician from a as little as replacing a socket or light fitting, adding a socket or light fitting even up to a full house rewire but any alterations to circuits would need to be inspected and tested by an electrician who is a member of the competent persons scheme. To be a member of the competent persons scheme you must hold your DEI, Safe Isolation and the 18th Edition qualifications plus have electrical experience (2 years)"

Deep Thought

@OP

At 40 I decided I needed a change.

I went back to college part time while still working. Luckily for me the company paid. But you can claim back education fees.

It was tough, but I got my degree and then was able to get into the area I wanted.

The Mulk

Quadrivium wrote: »

Apprenticeships in the UK are run differently to in Ireland and better in my opinion, the full apprenticeship usually only take 3 years and is of the same standard as the Irish craft qualifications.
Maybe the OP could get an NVQ 2 part time distance learning from the UK in Electrical trades then pursue an apprenticeship in Ireland from 2nd or 3rd year.
Check this out OP https://www.ableskills.co.uk/electrician-training-courses/city-guilds-2330-level-2-electrical-course/
https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/pages/become-an-electrician

Is a UK qual. not an NVQ level 3, which is seen as equivalent to QQI level 5, one level below our National Craft Cert at level 6?
Plus with Brexit , what will happen with UK quals. in the EU?

aido79

Augeo wrote: »

Wouldn't a full house require inspection by an electrician?

"The skills and qualifications gained on this course will enable you to carry out domestic electrical work as an electrician from a as little as replacing a socket or light fitting, adding a socket or light fitting even up to a full house rewire but any alterations to circuits would need to be inspected and tested by an electrician who is a member of the competent persons scheme. To be a member of the competent persons scheme you must hold your DEI, Safe Isolation and the 18th Edition qualifications plus have electrical experience (2 years)"

Even with an inspection needed by an electrician it is still not a good substitute for a trade qualification. It's a race to the bottom with qualifications like this in the UK.

arccosh

aido79 wrote: »

Labouring is part of the learning process in most construction apprenticeships but there are plenty of apprentices who don't have to go through that. As a blocklayer would you allow someone with only 2 years of experience to build your house?

The link I shared is relevant as it shows what a shambles the UK system is if someone can perform the duties of an electrician after doing a 15 day course with no previous experience.

just to shed more light on this ...



The UK approach is that everything is standardised, so whatever install you walk into, will be done to the same spec... (don't reply just yet, I will explain the caveats as you go along, and yes I know Ireland have this too)


NVQ2 is not someone who does the full job either, they can do all the donkey work and get everything installed, but aren't legally allowed to walk away from an energised setup that they have worked on, or rollout a design (say re-wire a house).

You can't sign off on your own work at all in the UK (whatever level you are) and need an independent NVQ3 install inspection electrician to sign off on an install for it to be legal and in spec....

Now, I know you're looking at this thinking there are plenty of holes in this.... there is....

will everything be in spec...no it won't, and you will have a lot of NVQ2 guys walk away from older installs etc... (theoretically older installs shouldn't exist though, and this is sort of enforced by a back channel way through insurance companies who won't insure your premises unless you have in spec install and in date inspection cert, signed by a NVQ3 inspection electrician)

can you pay someone at NVQ2 to do a load of work that is unsigned, of course you can... do you have a leg to stand on if there are any issues or accidents, no..

3 year apprenticeship with NVQ2 qualification will mean f*ck all, so you do the NVQ3 qualification in your specialty (domestic, industrial, specialist industries etc....) meaning another few months work and sign off....

There is also the ESC/JIB card & IET regs exams which I suppose would be similar-ish to RECI recognition, although to have full insurance, you need these to function as a business and be able to sign off..

so in the end, you wouldn't be far off 4 years in the UK (if not over in some areas) ....



coming back to NVQ2 level. The UK educational system is far different than Ireland's....

Ireland has a sort of a pyramid setup, where you have a broad knowledge of foundations in a lot of topics and as you move up educational levels, you focus more in your individual topics, while still maintaining knowledge in similar topics but not to a lot of depth.....

The UK is far more modularised, so you do the relevent training in the area you work..

This is where those 15 week courses appear....

Can someone walk in off the street and do them - of course
Can they pass them - quiet possibly (but they're not easy)
Can they then do install work - they will have been assesed to standard, so theoretially yes
Is it a legal install - No, they should technically have the IET regs exam done also, along with their ECS/JIB card (further exams) and (depending on the type of install) be of NVQ3 level along with inspection of work by an independent NVQ3 approved electrician...


why are the courses there then?
-some people will progress to NVQ3
-some firms will employ NVQ2 to do the donkey work (Electrician's mate)
-some industries will indirectly work with power, so instead of having to have a certified electrician on site when a fuse blows, they will train guys to NVQ2 level to do initial level 1 maybe 2 fault diagnosis and repair work which doesn't effect the overall initial design....

I was offered NVQ2 for doing install work (I was a telecoms tech at the time, no formal electrician training)... this would have allowed me to install radios and network equipment, then they had a NVQ3 inspection electrician come in for a few hours and sign off my work .... I ended up not needing it for the project, but I did hold a City and Guilds Authorised Person OPS cert for 2 years....

AP OPS is AP on a specified piece of operatioal kit, in this case a 400V UPS... we got manufacturer training on safety and level 2 fault investigation, again, I've no electrician qualifications.... the do require prior knowledge for this, which I demonstrated with a telecoms apprenticeship an electronics HNC....


Overall, is the Ireland or UK approach better? I think they are both sufficient for the industries that are present in each country.... Ireland is a smaller country so it make sense to have a broad knowledge of a lot of things rather than a modular approach as in the UK.

You still get cowboys everywhere though, either side isn't fool proof.

aido79

aido79 wrote: »

Even with an inspection needed by an electrician it is still not a good substitute for a trade qualification. It's a race to the bottom with qualifications like this in the UK.

Race to the bottom or get folk with less qualifications to do the donkey work as as arccosh mentioned.

It's similar in the US iirc ........ you get lads that are qualified just to wire panels, lads qualified just to do domestic stuff ....... folk for LV, folk for ELV

arccosh wrote: »

..................

...........
.............


why are the courses there then?
-some people will progress to NVQ3
-some firms will employ NVQ2 to do the donkey work (Electrician's mate)
-some industries will indirectly work with power, so instead of having to have a certified electrician on site when a fuse blows, they will train guys to NVQ2 level to do initial level 1 maybe 2 fault diagnosis and repair work which doesn't effect the overall initial design....

.................

aido79

arccosh wrote: »

just to shed more light on this ...



The UK approach is that everything is standardised, so whatever install you walk into, will be done to the same spec... (don't reply just yet, I will explain the caveats as you go along, and yes I know Ireland have this too)


NVQ2 is not someone who does the full job either, they can do all the donkey work and get everything installed, but aren't legally allowed to walk away from an energised setup that they have worked on, or rollout a design (say re-wire a house).

You can't sign off on your own work at all in the UK (whatever level you are) and need an independent NVQ3 install inspection electrician to sign off on an install for it to be legal and in spec....

Now, I know you're looking at this thinking there are plenty of holes in this.... there is....

will everything be in spec...no it won't, and you will have a lot of NVQ2 guys walk away from older installs etc... (theoretically older installs shouldn't exist though, and this is sort of enforced by a back channel way through insurance companies who won't insure your premises unless you have in spec install and in date inspection cert, signed by a NVQ3 inspection electrician)

can you pay someone at NVQ2 to do a load of work that is unsigned, of course you can... do you have a leg to stand on if there are any issues or accidents, no..

3 year apprenticeship with NVQ2 qualification will mean f*ck all, so you do the NVQ3 qualification in your specialty (domestic, industrial, specialist industries etc....) meaning another few months work and sign off....

There is also the ESC/JIB card & IET regs exams which I suppose would be similar-ish to RECI recognition, although to have full insurance, you need these to function as a business and be able to sign off..

so in the end, you wouldn't be far off 4 years in the UK (if not over in some areas) ....



coming back to NVQ2 level. The UK educational system is far different than Ireland's....

Ireland has a sort of a pyramid setup, where you have a broad knowledge of foundations in a lot of topics and as you move up educational levels, you focus more in your individual topics, while still maintaining knowledge in similar topics but not to a lot of depth.....

The UK is far more modularised, so you do the relevent training in the area you work..

This is where those 15 week courses appear....

Can someone walk in off the street and do them - of course
Can they pass them - quiet possibly (but they're not easy)
Can they then do install work - they will have been assesed to standard, so theoretially yes
Is it a legal install - No, they should technically have the IET regs exam done also, along with their ECS/JIB card (further exams) and (depending on the type of install) be of NVQ3 level along with inspection of work by an independent NVQ3 approved electrician...


why are the courses there then?
-some people will progress to NVQ3
-some firms will employ NVQ2 to do the donkey work (Electrician's mate)
-some industries will indirectly work with power, so instead of having to have a certified electrician on site when a fuse blows, they will train guys to NVQ2 level to do initial level 1 maybe 2 fault diagnosis and repair work which doesn't effect the overall initial design....

I was offered NVQ2 for doing install work (I was a telecoms tech at the time, no formal electrician training)... this would have allowed me to install radios and network equipment, then they had a NVQ3 inspection electrician come in for a few hours and sign off my work .... I ended up not needing it for the project, but I did hold a City and Guilds Authorised Person OPS cert for 2 years....

AP OPS is AP on a specified piece of operatioal kit, in this case a 400V UPS... we got manufacturer training on safety and level 2 fault investigation, again, I've no electrician qualifications.... the do require prior knowledge for this, which I demonstrated with a telecoms apprenticeship an electronics HNC....


Overall, is the Ireland or UK approach better? I think they are both sufficient for the industries that are present in each country.... Ireland is a smaller country so it make sense to have a broad knowledge of a lot of things rather than a modular approach as in the UK.

You still get cowboys everywhere though, either side isn't fool proof.

Thank you for the explanation. I think the most important part is that to get to the same level as an electrician in Ireland someone would still have train for 4 years in the UK. Is that right?

arccosh

aido79 wrote: »

Thank you for the explanation. I think the most important part is that to get to the same level as an electrician in Ireland someone would still have train for 4 years in the UK. Is that right?

England/Wales have "domestic installer" which can be done in 2 years (learning and OJT)...


But yes, your Irish like for like electrician in the UK would have the same level of training...that's where the ECS/JIB card comes in...



They have 3 levels, Core, Approved and Technician.


Core you can apply for after your NVQ3 (so about 2/3 years normally to do that)
Approved you can apply for after holding the Core card for 2 years (so 4 years min)
Then Technician is after 5 years of holding an approved card (9 years min)


So to get around any snags, just go for an Electrician with an ESC/JIB approved card ... which is easily checked on their website if it's valid.


thing to note, yes you can do those NVQ crash courses where you could get a level 3 in 12 to 18 months ... but you would definitely need previous experience/knowledge to manage that and pass all the practical tests

roofer1988

Danny552 wrote: »

Electrician rates. Effective: 01 September 2019

Phase 2 €274.95
Phase 4 €412.23
Phase 6 €595.53
4th Year €733.20

Going by older pay rates it has gone up a good bit.
You have to look past the pay for the first 18 months and think of the end result, well worth it I think with great opportunities in the future.

Are electricians getting this kind of money qualified?. dont think many contactors paying the rate

Danny552

roofer1988 wrote: »

Are electricians getting this kind of money qualified?. dont think many contactors paying the rate

There the rates of pay you get at each phase they cant under pay you. When your qualified you would be on more for sure i have spoken to electricians that are on €800 up to 1k a week.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

......

Most lads working with the major contractors are on €50k ish basic, charged out at €80k to the client.

roofer1988 wrote: »

Are electricians getting this kind of money qualified?. dont think many contactors paying the rate

Maybe some lads working for domestic outfits would be on less, not much or many though.