Proposals from Deer Alliance for future seasons

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1]Decide first on what are we wiling to negoiate on,compromise on and what are uncrossable line in the sand issues for us.We need a full consensus going forward before we appoach anyone in offical dom


2]The abolition or make it a once-off requirement to inform the dept of rifle&ammo details.

3] Non-agreement with mandatory courses post 10 years of holding an Irish liscense or UK,US or EU.IOW refusal of the non grandfathering clause.

4] Include bag returns to be done online.

5] If we are going to be paying fees,then the foreshore liscenses as a biggger body of shooters get included in the computer as well at the same price for 5 years..Fairs fair,and it is a bargining chip that needs to be considerd. Otherwise we are going to be carrying them as eventually they will be included in the machine as well.

6] Make it a claer point that certain organisations do NOT speak for the majority of deer hunters in Ireland,and that there is strong objection for the silent majority views not being repersented,which we as a group of individuals repersent. Back this up via a petition perhaps?

Grizzly with all due respects we're not in a position to decide what we are willing to negotiate on, etc.

We should be focused on making reasonable requests to the people who make the decisions and the people who have the power to influence those decisions on our behalf.

Personally I have no interest whatsoever in foreshore shooters, or what fees they will or want to pay. I don't even know who they are, what they do and I don't care either way.

I don't need a consensus of anyone to write to public representatives on my behalf either, they are there to represent us as individuals.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

Grizzly with all due respects we're not in a position to decide what we are willing to negotiate on, etc.

We are if it is a group effort,calling itself somthin Irish,aorganisation. A collective effort in this case will get more attention and be more coherent than, solo runners.

We should be focused on making reasonable requests to the people who make the decisions and the people who have the power to influence those decisions on our behalf.

In case you didnt get the memo...The people supposedly having the power to repersent us at ministerial level are the ones trying to screw us over.
And what in your opinion are "reasonable requests" on the points already raised???

Personally I have no interest whatsoever in foreshore shooters, or what fees they will or want to pay. I don't even know who they are, what they do and I don't care either way.

Fair enough...X thousand duck and geese shooters who hunt our esturies and lakes will thank you for making their lives easier by being able to do this online in the future too for free on a system that you are subsidseing with your 80 euros every 3 years. Becaues there is NO WAY IN HELL the WLU will be doing half our hunting liscenses by computer and the other half by pen and paper in the future.

I don't need a consensus of anyone to write to public representatives on my behalf either, they are there to represent us as individuals.

Indeed you dont,and go right ahead.But it wil be one voice yelling in the dark. Multiple people with the same points look more organised and creditable...

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We are if it is a group effort,calling itself somthin Irish,aorganisation. A collective effort in this case will get more attention and be more coherent than, solo runners.



In case you didnt get the memo...The people supposedly having the power to repersent us at ministerial level are the ones trying to screw us over.
And what in your opinion are "reasonable requests" on the points already raised???



Fair enough...X thousand duck and geese shooters who hunt our esturies and lakes will thank you for making their lives easier by being able to do this online in the future too for free on a system that you are subsidseing with your 80 euros every 3 years. Becaues there is NO WAY IN HELL the WLU will be doing half our hunting liscenses by computer and the other half by pen and paper in the future.



Indeed you dont,and go right ahead.But it wil be one voice yelling in the dark. Multiple people with the same points look more organised and creditable...

You seem to me to have lost the plot here Grizzly, but it could be just my lack of education and experience so you carry on there with your crusade and best of luck.

Grizzly 45

Obviously a bit too hard to figure out that a collective effort is going to look a lot better in representation and seriousness than single rants to a minister by individuals?:rolleyes:

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Obviously a bit too hard to figure out that a collective effort is going to look a lot better in representation and seriousness than single rants to a minister by individuals?:rolleyes:

On the contrary, I was taught that very same lesson a long time ago by men a lot more experienced and willing to educate others than yourself.

There's really no need to try and reassert your superior knowledge and vast experience over the rest of us mere mortals, it proves nothing.

Much like the other lad who thinks his vulgar expressions of his willingness to spend money on bullets and diesel means he thinks he is somehow richer and more devoted to the sport than others here who go about their business in a more dignified manner I find your attitude to your fellow sportsmen appalling.

garrettod

Lads,

Trying to get fully organised, form agreement on "policy" etc takes a lot of time. While it's time well spent, it's also going to draw both frustration and annoyance from many of us, along the way.

Please try not to let it get personal.... Our energy is far better spent working towards common goals, for the benefit of our sport.

We've a relatively new and inexperienced Minister on our hands, who looks weak and by extension, potentially dangerous. God only knows what he might sign off on, if he sees something requested by a lobby group with a Deer on its headed paper.

Let's try and agree a few basic actions and start doing something positive, while simultaneously discussing other longer term plans and ideas.

If we aren't at a stage where we can agree to issue a letter to the Minister representing our group, then let's start with agreeing a few basics and even writing individually, to help counteract whatever else is going on, that we may not even know about.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

There's really no need to try and reassert your superior knowledge and vast experience over the rest of us mere mortals, it proves nothing.

How about trying to answer what I asked you ,in what you consider pertinent points on what you would like to see changed with out getting personal? Usually when people get personal,they dont have a valid response in the 1st place.Somthing those mentors of yours would surely have taught you?

Much like the other lad who thinks his vulgar expressions of his willingness to spend money on bullets and diesel means he thinks he is somehow richer and more devoted to the sport than others here who go about their business in a more dignified manner

Not my circus ,not my monkey.

I find your attitude to your fellow sportsmen appalling

.

How so??? I want to hear this one!! :P:P:P

Cass

Ok lads, go have a coffee, cup of tea or a pint if ya need and cool down.

Let calmer heads return or just turn off the computer and attack the TOPIC (not each other) fresh in the morning.

Grizzly 45

We've a relatively new and inexperienced Minister on our hands, who looks weak and by extension, potentially dangerous. God only knows what he might sign off on, if he sees something requested by a lobby group with a Deer on its headed paper.

First good question...Which minister is in charge of this rodeo?Is it the Green guy or the FF guy in charge of housing whose remit this has fallen under?No point in sending it to the "wrong" minister,which we might have been doing with the Greenie.

2nd point we need to check this orgsnisation getting too much into the ministerial ear.Wondering would an open letter to the minister with sigs be a start?

Let's try and agree a few basic actions and start doing something positive, while simultaneously discussing other longer term plans and ideas.

Absolutely,but I get the feeling they are too easily ignored and then we get the 3% rule happening again.
No need to set up any organisations,with formal recognition and elected members etc.All it has to be is a declaration or open letter stating our wants,and that this organisation does not repersent us all and that we are in strong disagreement with it,on certain points .

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Obviously a bit too hard to figure out that a collective effort is going to look a lot better in representation and seriousness than single rants to a minister by individuals?:rolleyes:

You never get a collective effort in Ireland anyway. The Irish love to be contrary for the sake of it. Seen it so much in the shooting community over the years. Lads for instance complaining about them feckin pistols being licenced, "Shouldn't be allowed, all ya need is a double barrel or a .22 bolt action". Then we had SCOVI proposing crap that could have been real trouble for us.

If you had a few thousand lads complaining about deer hunting licence fees, you'd get the well off, money no object brigade, saying its no issue.

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

First good question...Which minister is in charge of this rodeo?Is it the Green guy or the FF guy in charge of housing whose remit this has fallen under?No point in sending it to the "wrong" minister,which we might have been doing with the Greenie.. .

The response that I was sent, to my complaint about the delay in this season's licences being issued, was sent in behalf of Malcolm Noonan, so I'm assuming that he's our man.

I think its the other lad that's gone and landed himself in the sh1t, with regards to permitting fishermen to shoot the seals, though.

2nd point we need to check this orgsnisation getting too much into the ministerial ear.Wondering would an open letter to the minister with sigs be a start?

What do you think that letter should say?

* challenge their authority to represent hunters?
* question the experience and qualifications of the person / people running the group?
* ask the minister to publically call on all interested parties to make submissions, before any changes to the current arrangements, are considered, or approved?

tudderone wrote: »

You never get a collective effort in Ireland anyway...

And that's why we have many of the problems that we have today.

So, who not try something different and let's all see if we can achieve something, by working togeather?

We won't always agree on everything, but how about everyone focusing on a few things that we can all agree on, to begin with?

It's long past time that we all recognised thay we are stronger, and carry significantly more influence, when we stand together... Unity for the common good!

Rows Grower

garrettod wrote: »

The response that I was sent, to my complaint about the delay in this season's licences being issued, was sent in behalf of Malcolm Noonan, so I'm assuming that he's our man.

I think its the other lad that's gone and landed himself in the sh1t, with regards to permitting fishermen to shoot the seals, though.



What do you think that letter should say?

* challenge their authority to represent hunters?
* question the experience and qualifications of the person / people running the group?
* ask the minister to publically call on all interested parties to make submissions, before any changes to the current arrangements, are considered, or approved?



And that's why we have many of the problems that we have today.

So, who not try something different and let's all see if we can achieve something, by working togeather?

We won't always agree on everything, but how about everyone focusing on a few things that we can all agree on, to begin with?

It's long past time that we all recognised thay we are stronger, and carry significantly more influence, when we stand together... Unity for the common good!

I think your three points should be the basis of the letter, maybe someone else will come up with another point or two, if not I’d be happy to drive on with what you have come up with.
Once again, fair play.

Richard308

garrettod wrote: »

Okay, so let's all forget about any suggestion of a fee. ..

What can we agree on, and what are we prepared to actually try and act on, aside from squabbling here on the website?

Is everyone supportive of emailing the Minister objecting to a private enterprise running training courses?

Is everyone willing to email the Minister specifically objecting to a certain individual and / or a certain organisation claiming to represent Hunters?

Is everyone supportive of calling for the immediate introduction of an online application process, that would save our details and allow log on via username, similar to the motor tax system, for example ?

... a 3 year term?

... a simple confirmation that we continue to hold permission from various land owners and to provide the landowners contact details, if someone wants to verify our claims?

Anything else?

Hi Garrett, you’ve covered a lot. I’d agree in principle, however some paper pusher will complain we haven’t been submitting our returns. Perhaps three year term on licence, printed annually once deer shot return is submitted online??

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=garrettod;114749167
I think its the other lad that's gone and landed himself in the sh1t, with regards to permitting fishermen to shoot the seals, though.



What do you think that letter should say?

* challenge their authority to represent hunters?
* question the experience and qualifications of the person / people running the group?
* ask the minister to publically call on all interested parties to make submissions, before any changes to the current arrangements, are considered, or approved?
[/QUOTE]

1st point Yes as it is easily demonstrated by numbers in the collective organisations under that umbrella group Vs the numbers of liscense holders out there.Offical figures seem to be 5,500 to 6 ,000. So ballpark figure of 5,500 IOW there are more of us outside than in these orgs

2nd pt. Not really a good idea,as we dont know what their qualifications are,and throwing asperations doesn't look professional.[Time for that later]

3rd point Yes most definitely,with also a point that these views are taken seriously,and not just a box ticking exercise in the name of having to do a public submission.Also,that our nominated reps would like to meet with the minister to express our cncerns in person,as surely the other group has done in person.

We put this as an open letter or petition on change .org,or which offical site the Irish gov has,and collect signatures on this?
All we have to do is draft the letter properly.

Pkiernan

Ministers don't care what letter say.

Just email them, and cc your local TD, saying that you'd like him to immediately issue licenses to those who had them before.
Tell them you wont vote for them again if they dont.

Pkiernan

Rows Grower wrote: »

Much like the other lad who thinks his vulgar expressions of his willingness to spend money on bullets and diesel means he thinks he is somehow richer and more devoted to the sport than others here who go about their business in a more dignified manner I find your attitude to your fellow sportsmen appalling.

You're just trolling - I said that I wouldn't have an issue paying for a guaranteed service.

You've some how construed this to the nonsense you've typed above.

Grizzly 45

Pkiernan wrote: »

Ministers don't care what letter say.

Whole point of an "open letter" it means it is in the public domain highlighting a greivence.

Just email them, and cc your local TD, saying that you'd like him to immediately issue licenses to those who had them before.

Think we have been there,seen it done it,bought the Tshirt and the gift shop on this one since Mid August.

Tell them you wont vote for them again if they dont.

Ever hear "A week is a long time in Irish politics"? There rest of it is" an election is a lifetime away".;)

Pkiernan

Too much infighting here for me.

Have a good season lads.

Rows Grower

Pkiernan wrote: »

You're just trolling - I said that I wouldn't have an issue paying for a guaranteed service.

You've some how construed this to the nonsense you've typed above.

To be fair you said a lot more than that and were quite liberal with your insults.

I genuinely hope you also have a good season.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1st point Yes as it is easily demonstrated by numbers in the collective organisations under that umbrella group Vs the numbers of liscense holders out there.Offical figures seem to be 5,500 to 6 ,000. So ballpark figure of 5,500 IOW there are more of us outside than in these orgs

2nd pt. Not really a good idea,as we dont know what their qualifications are,and throwing asperations doesn't look professional.[Time for that later]

3rd point Yes most definitely,with also a point that these views are taken seriously,and not just a box ticking exercise in the name of having to do a public submission.Also,that our nominated reps would like to meet with the minister to express our cncerns in person,as surely the other group has done in person.

We put this as an open letter or petition on change .org,or which offical site the Irish gov has,and collect signatures on this?
All we have to do is draft the letter properly.

Grizzly, I can see the validity of your first two points but if we are going to draft something that we all agree on I personally don't agree with your 3rd point.

To be crystal clear here, I don't want a debate or argument.

Cass

There is some debate, but still no resolution to the copyright issue.

Kramer wrote: »

You probably don't realise he has edited his "blog", by adding in that now, in point 3, after the pushback . That wasn't there before..............

However there is a draft of the original text on the deer stalking page on facebook if anyone wants to view it for the moment. This was the text i read and the reason for my opening post and the lack of any mention of permission(s).

good job people screenshotted it wasn't it .

Indeed.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

Grizzly, I can see the validity of your first two points but if we are going to draft something that we all agree on I personally don't agree with your 3rd point.

To be crystal clear here, I don't want a debate or argument.

Thats fine,I put it in there to see if anyone was intrested or not.nothin is set in stone yet.

This is a rough draft idea for the open letter to the minister on this

AN OPEN LETTER TO MINISTER M Noonan [titles etc]

Dear Minister.
As you are now undoubtably aware of the present deer hunting liscenses of 2020 and the Wildlife Liscenseing Unit [WLU] has been under some scrutinity and debate in this year due to the delays of the COVID crisis.

This dept under your remit has been having some problems for years now every year dealing with issueing liscenses in a prompt and timely manner by Sept 1st using methodology more suited to the 1970s than the 2020s in sheer numbers of applications,and the COVID pandemic has brought this to a head.

It has come to our attention that a certain group,or umbrella organisation purpourting to repersent deer hunters in Ireland,and who also happens to run a certification course for deer stalkers, whose secetary a certain Mr... Has been suggesting changes to both legislation and how this might be financed.

While we are broadly in agreement with some of these points,it must be made clear on certain points;
1] Mr...organisation or umbrella group DOES NOT repersent the majority of deer hunters in the Republic. Of the +/- 5,500 hunters who are liscensed in the Republic, his organisation has appx 1,850 members whom over the last decade have been taught in his organisations courses.Mostly for the purpose of being able to shoot in Coilte lets,Which is their own [Coilte]requirement for insurance purposes.
Therefore this man and his organisation has no claim,mandate ,or petition to speak for us the undersigned.Nor is it in his organisations remit to try and "mission creep "out from their original mandate of supplying training to anyone wishing to take such,to making this a cumpulsory issue for all deer hunters in Ireland.
therefore we kindly ask you to take on board that Mr...and his organisation do not speak for us in these proposals .

2 We,the undersigned request that before you make any changes to this legislation in the future,that it is made an open to public submission debate and that all views are given due and serious consideration.Esp from those who have hunted many years here and have managed,even under draconinan firearms legislation to humanely and efficently harvest wild deer for Irish tables for decades.

Sincerely... The unaffiliated majority of Irish deer hunters


Everyone welcome to add,delete,suggest,constructively critizise on this.

Rows Grower

Fair play Grizzly you've put a lot of thought and effort into that.

Personally speaking I'd be inclined to keep the message shorter.