Fairness....where is it?

ethical

Its interesting to note that many schools were off today in some parts of the country.
Why,because some deserved it and had gone back early,and perhaps deserved their day in the sun (and it was just that!)

Now,in the interest of fairness,some schools did go back early (online meetings) and with the extra input from all staff,students etc no one is going to be annoyed with them.They will still end up doing the same amount of days as every other school at the end of the day.

My ire is pointed at the schools,and I happen to know a few, who were back online the first week of August and had weekly meetings,(sometimes two meetings a week) yet they were not off today and have nothing built into their year schedule to grant them anything by way of goodwill or a day off or a reduction on Feckin CP hours.

The Union,at least one of them ,ASTI has spoken about the added work ,by stealth,that the Dept are adding in to teachers work practices without as much as a staff meeting.

One school I know personally had a one hour online meeting the Friday before all schools returned and they had a day off for it.
A neighbouring school was online until late June and returned back the 1st of August with regular meetings and they have NO time off,how can this be fair????

Some managers ,and I refer here to both Voluntary and ETB ,have differing views on whats being done,why,why ,why? Why would they do this and crucify their staff.Morale is on the floor.To be fair to the students they are coping well....much better than the teachers,in as far as the student can lunch together while the whole social fabric that knitted the staff together is gone (perhaps forever).The break and lunch times were great for staff and sorted out many problems that were in the classroom........and one more thing I ve noticed ...
Free supervision is alive and well in many schools! Teachers are eating in their cars or around the yard and management havent had the foresight to mention this and thank staff for the free supervision!!!!! Of course they have noticed it or if they have not they should not hold the positions they do!

Treppen

Good point, a whole raft of changes are being rammed through in our schools, simply because we are all separated as a staff and have no staff meetings anymore. Every morning we go in we get a new email telling us of the changes.

Duties for AP posts are being tossed all over the place and re-written. It's only when a few colleagues comes to you for a discrete quite breakdown that you realise that £*"*£*"#*£"*£'s are making hay while it pours rain.

And you know what quality that hay is going to be.

Hoboo

Under the circumstances, is a little flexibility during an ongoing and ever changing situation too much to ask over a 7 hour day?

amacca

Hoboo wrote: »

Under the circumstances, is a little flexibility during an ongoing and ever changing situation too much to ask over a 7 hour day?

Not at all.....as long as it cuts both ways and its not one way traffic/thin end of the wedge type stuff.

o1s1n

Hoboo wrote: »

Under the circumstances, is a little flexibility during an ongoing and ever changing situation too much to ask over a 7 hour day?

Indeed, the entitlement in the OP is staggering.

We're in a pandemic, things are constantly changing from one week to the next. 'Not getting a day off' because some other school did is like something you'd hear on the playground.

I work in third level education and things are changing from one day to the next, a huge amount of flexibility is required. It's just the way it is at the moment. I'm planning things and then the plans have to be scrapped and replanned at a moment's notice, over and over. Many times after hours.

It's incredibly stressful but is even more stressful for our students who haven't a bean what's going on and looking to us for guidance.

Maybe rather than worrying about a few hours eating into your summer holidays you should worry about those in your charge instead? Just a thought.

ethical

Ah,goood to see the 3rd level are having an input.
The same fcukin input that has destroyed 2nd level teaching over the past 10 years!
EQUALITY of pay fight ....? ...anyone??? We see where the TUI have destroyed 2nd level teaching because of their membership which are both 2nd level teachers and 3rd level teachers/lecturers......and now we see how the TUI stand idly by and do nothing for their 2nd level members.At least the ASTI are trying to do something,to make some people aware of the issues occurring in schools at present.The TUI should be totally ashamed of themselves.....but they wont be as they do not know what they are doing....other than robbing members from other Unions when it suits!

Treppen

I seriously doubt the above are in any Union ethical. So the concept of precedence breaking solidarity is lost on them.

I wonder were they the same colleagues who gave out about the unions protesting cuts and changes to conditions during the last recession and threw on the green jerseys... and then moaned that they were 'sold down the river by unions' which they probably aren't members of.

You're right btw, some schools did a couple of zoom meetings (including croke Parke zooms) and got the day off.
Others did and got nothing + more pointless meetings on top.

Rosita

Hoboo wrote: »

Under the circumstances, is a little flexibility during an ongoing and ever changing situation too much to ask over a 7 hour day?

Funny you should mention that as flexibility and an acknowledgement of an ongoing and ever-changing situation seems to me to be what the initial post is looking for some school managements. If they want to have a meeting outside what is usually considered the school year, fair enough, but a concomitant flexibility should be expected elsewhere.

o1s1n

ethical wrote: »

Ah,goood to see the 3rd level are having an input.
The same fcukin input that has destroyed 2nd level teaching over the past 10 years!
EQUALITY of pay fight ....? ...anyone??? We see where the TUI have destroyed 2nd level teaching because of their membership which are both 2nd level teachers and 3rd level teachers/lecturers......and now we see how the TUI stand idly by and do nothing for their 2nd level members.At least the ASTI are trying to do something,to make some people aware of the issues occurring in schools at present.The TUI should be totally ashamed of themselves.....but they wont be as they do not know what they are doing....other than robbing members from other Unions when it suits!

Treppen wrote: »

I seriously doubt the above are in any Union ethical. So the concept of precedence breaking solidarity is lost on them.

I wonder were they the same colleagues who gave out about the unions protesting cuts and changes to conditions during the last recession and threw on the green jerseys... and then moaned that they were 'sold down the river by unions' which they probably aren't members of.

You're right btw, some schools did a couple of zoom meetings (including croke Parke zooms) and got the day off.
Others did and got nothing + more pointless meetings on top.

You are right, I'm not a member of a union. An easy tell is how my posts aren't polluted with union talk and instead focus on the actual bigger picture - education during a pandemic.

Don't mind me though, continue to debate and fight for a couple of hours lost over your summer holidays while the rest of us try to actually keep the wheels from falling off.

shesty

I can't actually tell if the OP is a teacher or not or in a union or not, or what he thinks is right or wrong.The post is bewildering.

Treppen

o1s1n wrote: »

You are right, I'm not a member of a union. An easy tell is how my posts aren't polluted with union talk and instead focus on the actual bigger picture - education during a pandemic.

Don't mind me though, continue to debate and fight for a couple of hours lost over your summer holidays while the rest of us try to actually keep the wheels from falling off.

Not a Union member.... But happy to take the benefits.

Treppen

shesty wrote: »

I can't actually tell if the OP is a teacher or not or in a union or not, or what he thinks is right or wrong.The post is bewildering.

It's about fairness. Some schools get the day off, some don't.
Pandemic or not there's a disparity.

RealJohn

Is this day off an extra day? Either schools are entitled to take it or they’re not. Presumably, it doesn’t change the fact that the students should have a minimum number of days of tuition, right?
If you had a day off on Monday, you won’t have it later in the year when someone else will, right?

What have I missed?

Treppen

RealJohn wrote: »

Is this day off an extra day? Either schools are entitled to take it or they’re not. Presumably, it doesn’t change the fact that the students should have a minimum number of days of tuition, right?
If you had a day off on Monday, you won’t have it later in the year when someone else will, right?

What have I missed?

Some schools counted all the zoom meetings at the start as a school day (as summer year groups were in also). So they gave a day in lieu.

Others required teachers in but didn't count it as a school day.

And various other mix and match outcomes.

Rosita

o1s1n wrote: »

You are right, I'm not a member of a union. An easy tell is how my posts aren't polluted with union talk and instead focus on the actual bigger picture - education during a pandemic.

The bigger picture also includes the reality that we operate in a workplace. We don't refuse to be paid because the real bigger picture is education.

People are entitled to raise issues without others feeling the need to be a hero.

I was in a classroom today where I measured that I was just 30 centimetres away from the nearest student. I would feel perfectly entitled to point out how unacceptable that is without someone else implying that they care more.

That's about fairness and respect, not about unions.

man_no_plan

Rosita wrote: »

The bigger picture also includes the reality that we operate in a workplace. We don't refuse to be paid because the real bigger picture is education.

People are entitled to raise issues without others feeling the need to be a hero.

I was in a classroom today where I measured that I was just 30 centimetres away from the nearest student. I would feel perfectly entitled to point out how unacceptable that is without someone else implying that they care more.

That's about fairness and respect, not about unions.

But equally, and in fairness, you probably raised that as a matter in your school where it could be resolved.

This posting of hearsay about this school and that and getting into things like days off in lieu. They are local issues that need to be sorted locally.

No amount of principal bashing in here will solve any issue. TUI bashing, on the other hand, will solve all education issues.

Inspection of schools for COVID compliance has started. Raise your issues when the inspector arrives by all means, but raise your own issues. Not those of an other school, somewhere.

Blush_01

man_no_plan wrote: »

But equally, and in fairness, you probably raised that as a matter in your school where it could be resolved.

This posting of hearsay about this school and that and getting into things like days off in lieu. They are local issues that need to be sorted locally.

No amount of principal bashing in here will solve any issue. TUI bashing, on the other hand, will solve all education issues.

Inspection of schools for COVID compliance has started. Raise your issues when the inspector arrives by all means, but raise your own issues. Not those of an other school, somewhere.

That's a bit like saying "it's only unfair if you know about it and how could you know about it because you don't teach there". Collective improvements only come about when people communicate collectively. It's how so much of the private sector manages to suppress workers rights so effectively. If nobody talks about it, there's no opportunity for collective action to raise every boat to an equitable level.

byhookorbycrook

What schools were off ?

joebloggs32

RealJohn wrote: »

Is this day off an extra day? Either schools are entitled to take it or they’re not. Presumably, it doesn’t change the fact that the students should have a minimum number of days of tuition, right?
If you had a day off on Monday, you won’t have it later in the year when someone else will, right?

What have I missed?

Naol on the head.
We brought forward a staff day, and the return to school for students by a day also from our original plans. This has given us a monday off at our chooding later in the year.
One year we shifted tge school year forward two days and had two days off at our discretion.

I doubt staff in another school tbought it ynfair of us to work a slightly different 167 calendar than they did.

Rosita

man_no_plan wrote: »

But equally, and in fairness, you probably raised that as a matter in your school where it could be resolved.

This posting of hearsay about this school and that and getting into things like days off in lieu. They are local issues that need to be sorted locally.

No amount of principal bashing in here will solve any issue. TUI bashing, on the other hand, will solve all education issues.

Inspection of schools for COVID compliance has started. Raise your issues when the inspector arrives by all means, but raise your own issues. Not those of an other school, somewhere.

Who said anything about inspectors or raising issues locally. Do you seriously think we are not capable of doing that?

In the meantime, since it's not North Korea we also have the option of posting our experiences on a public forum. I think there is real value in that. You seriously don't think that this stuff is not read by Principals, unions, and Dept of Education personnel?

man_no_plan

Rosita wrote: »

Who said anything about inspectors or raising issues locally. Do you seriously think we are not capable of doing that?

In the meantime, since it's not North Korea we also have the option of posting our experiences on a public forum. I think there is real value in that. You seriously don't think that this stuff is not read by Principals, unions, and Dept of Education personnel?

No problem posting it here. Expecting something to happen is a different matter.

As I said, in your example you probably did raise it locally. General rants, 'some schools' etc. The overwhelming negative tone in here is very off putting.

This used to be a forum where people of differing views could have their say and be done with it. Now you're portrayed as being condescending for pointing out a simple process.

As for the Dept spies... they won't pick up much from the 26 regular posters on here. It is easy to see why staffroom politics have such a strong hold on the development of some schools.

Basically this is a virtual staffroom and I sat at the wrong table with my nonsense.

Treppen

man_no_plan wrote: »

No problem posting it here. Expecting something to happen is a different matter.

As I said, in your example you probably did raise it locally. General rants, 'some schools' etc. The overwhelming negative tone in here is very off putting.

This used to be a forum where people of differing views could have their say and be done with it. Now you're portrayed as being condescending for pointing out a simple process.

As for the Dept spies... they won't pick up much from the 26 regular posters on here. It is easy to see why staffroom politics have such a strong hold on the development of some schools.

Basically this is a virtual staffroom and I sat at the wrong table with my nonsense.

Well look, the guy is having a rant, and everybody has to rant at some stage. At least you can do it here anonymously.

Saying that it's a 'simple process' to air your grievances in a school is a bit naïve. Or else you just have a really good school where staff are consulted and people can have a rant without fear of persecution... and that's fine from your perspective.

That's not my experience.