Wife speaking her native language to our kids and I feel alienated

NewFatherHere

NewFatherHere wrote: »

Hello Good People,

I know I should be speaking with my Wife about these things rather than posting about it online but I needed to get my thoughts down on paper first and perhaps get some advice and perspective, which would be greatly appriciated.

My ( late twenties ) wife ( early twenties ) of 3 years and I have two girls together, a 3 year old and a newborn. I am Irish, she is from eastern Europe.

It was a whirlwind romance. Married after barely two years, first kid after 3 and now another. I have always wanted a Family and couldn't be happier on that front, becoming and being a Husband and Father is the best thing to every happen to me.

Naturally I always understood that my Wife's native language is not English. However, she has lived here a lof of her life so is completely fluent in English. Her family live here too. She always speaks her native language around them though as they still struggle with it.

My issue ? ( I hate using the word issue ); She speaks her native language to both our kids constantly. Not just a little bit, it's the entire time. I feel alienated and an outsider as a Parent when she does this. I have no idea what shes saying or what they are saying back. In principle and back in the early days I was thinking this would be great, my kids learning two languages natively growing up. They are like sponges at this age. Fast forward 3 years and my Daughter answers me in her Mothers native language even if I speak in English to her. I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn. I have been as opened minded and patient as possible. Put myself in her shoes. Understanding she wants to maintain her heritage with our kids, I am totally ok with that but I had hoped we'd take a hybrid approach. 50/50. That's not the case.

I talk to my kids in English all of the time. I read them Bed time stories, she reads them stories in her language. They call out for the books in my wifes language more than they do with English which then means she's reading to them more.

I just feel a little lost and not entirely included in the parenting of my girls.

I have brought it up a few times, she says she'll try speak English more but it never lasts. I have not brought it up too often because I honestly feel like an ass.

Advice welcomed, thank you

Eldest will be in school in two years and it will be the reverse

Folks are getting carried away here. Its pretty simple, daddy speaks to everyone in English, mammy speaks to children in Polish, a group conversation during dinner for example is in English as that is the language they all speak.

Its not a rule, its just a bit of common sense. Maybe some Polish comes out from mammy directly to a child but is that a big deal? I dont understand all the Spanish that pops out during dinner but its good for me as well to hear the simple words that kids use.

Dial Hard

I'm also quite curious as to what kind of edifying dinner conversation the OP seems to be expecting from a 3-year-old and a newborn.

This is a complete non-issue. The 3-year-old could flip to 100% English tomorrow according to the well-documented vagaries of a toddler's will and the newborn is, well, a newborn.

Anyway. I suspect this will be one of those threads where the OP is never heard from again.

LegacyUser

Dial Hard wrote: »

Anyway. I suspect this will be one of those threads where the OP is never heard from again.

I’m here, reading the mostly-helpful replies which offer me some good learning points and perspective, of which your post is not one of them. Thanks for your input nonetheless. Perhaps you missed the point of my post. It’s not the lack of content of the conversations that I have with my toddler it’s the fact that I feel left out as my wife parents our children in her native language. I don’t feel like a part of the team, I feel like an outsider.

Do I need to get over myself here ? Very possibly. The post has helped me see things from the outside and from people not so personally close to things as I am.

lainey_d_123

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

He's not, and no one ever learns Polish, and even if he did learn it it would take probably 5 or 10 years to speak it properly.
Europeans are immersed in English from a very young age nowadays, all popular culture is in English, for an English speaker to learn Polish properly would be very unheard of, it's nigh impossible without dedicating yourself totally. This is coming from someone who has been learning Spanish on and off for about 15 years and I would still only have a basic enough level of speaking and understanding.

You would be very unusual in only having a basic level of speaking and understanding of Spanish after 15 years of learning. Most people would be fairly proficient after about a year or two of study if they were focused and motivated. Polish is obviously much harder to learn but having a wife who is a native speaker is a massive advantage. Most people struggle to learn languages because they don't have anyone to practise with - he has someone right there at home! And presumably all her family and probably friends too.

He could have an alright level (enough to understand the gist of conversations with young children) within a year if he were really motivated to try hard, and what better motivation than to be able to understand your own children?! I have to say I struggle to understand people who marry and have kids with people without even trying to learn their language.

It's not as if they're sitting talking about astrophysics around the dinner table...what would they be saying? 'Mammy, I don't like this', 'Mammy, I need a fork', 'This is tasty', 'Eat all your food!', 'Stop messing'. It's hardly difficult to learn this sort of everyday vocabulary (which tends to be extremely limited with such young children) and it's a bit weird that OP hasn't even tried. Would you not have the curiosity to ask 'what was that word she just said back to you? 'Ziemniak'? What's that in English?' instead of having the attitude that foreign words are just too hard?

LegacyUser

The man feels excluded from his own family by another language being the dominant language of the home. That's not acceptable. For a family to work, both parents need to feel included. Loneliness and isolation for one will result otherwise. Separate lives will emerge. We know where that's going. This emotional issue of loneliness is patently the issue here so all the fine sentiments about multilingualism are academic. The man has a natural need to feel part of his own family unit.

That said, this is transparently a passing phase - once the kids are in school they'll be coming back with more English and more desire to improve it. This is obviously where you'll be back in favour. Presumably your wife is conscious of this impending linguistic challenge and wants to build their foundation up in her language now. That, too, is understandable and reasonable.

In the meantime, 90% of communication is non-verbal and your kids badly need a dad/hugs/love/kindness so just continue talking to them in English and if they answer you in the other language they can't get what they want, etc. They'll soon stop responding to you in that language. Meanwhile, sit down with herself and explain, respectfully, how you feel isolated and you will both come up with a better understanding and modus operandi based on love.

Thelonious Monk

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You would be very unusual in only having a basic level of speaking and understanding of Spanish after 15 years of learning

it's self learning and I don't get to speak it that often, I'd have a large vocabulary but I rarely get to practice talking with people. I could certainly partake in the conversations the OP is talking about but I wouldn't be able to speak fluently. I don't know anyone who is proficient after a year or two in any language, or maybe I have high standards!
Anyway Spanish is a totally different ball game to Polish, which would be far more difficult.
But you're right a basic understanding wouldn't be too hard to get to grips with.
If DuoLingo does Polish, that's where I'd start OP, it's fun and a really excellent free app.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You would be very unusual in only having a basic level of speaking and understanding of Spanish after 15 years of learning. Most people would be fairly proficient after about a year or two of study if they were focused and motivated. Polish is obviously much harder to learn but having a wife who is a native speaker is a massive advantage. Most people struggle to learn languages because they don't have anyone to practise with - he has someone right there at home! And presumably all her family and probably friends too.

He could have an alright level (enough to understand the gist of conversations with young children) within a year if he were really motivated to try hard, and what better motivation than to be able to understand your own children?! I have to say I struggle to understand people who marry and have kids with people without even trying to learn their language.

It's not as if they're sitting talking about astrophysics around the dinner table...what would they be saying? 'Mammy, I don't like this', 'Mammy, I need a fork', 'This is tasty', 'Eat all your food!', 'Stop messing'. It's hardly difficult to learn this sort of everyday vocabulary (which tends to be extremely limited with such young children) and it's a bit weird that OP hasn't even tried. Would you not have the curiosity to ask 'what was that word she just said back to you? 'Ziemniak'? What's that in English?' instead of having the attitude that foreign words are just too hard?

I have a degree in art. Sit down and I will do your portrait. A pretty dang good job I will do to.

Does that mean everyone can learn to paint portraits? No, because it's a skill and it requires natural talent.

Languages, maths, physics............... They are all skills that can be built on but an aptitude for the topic must exist.

Edit to clarify, I'm not arguing against trying. I agree on that but my inability to speak Spanish is most certainly not as a result of a lack of desire or effort. It sucks being out of the loop.

Did the op close his account?

LegacyUser

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Did the op close his account?

Nope, I just posted anonymously.

Airyfairy12

Can you learn the language? Duolingo is a great source for learning languages, your wife can help you along and it might be a good idea to look up language courses.
English is one of the hardest languages to learn, if your wife can learn English surely you can learn her language.

Hannibal_Smith

If she's sitting in front of you speaking a language to your daughter that you don't understand, that's really rude.

Could you and your wife read the book to her together. That way you get to pick up some of the dialect and your daughter gets her favourite story.

As some one else said, when your daughter goes to school English will become more dominant, so it will even out in the long run.

I would take two approaches, learn the language yourself and talk to your wife and ask her, when you're in the room, to not leave you out of a conversation.

Pauliedragon

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I have a degree in art. Sit down and I will do your portrait. A pretty dang good job I will do to.

Does that mean everyone can learn to paint portraits? No, because it's a skill and it requires natural talent.

Languages, maths, physics............... They are all skills that can be built on but an aptitude for the topic must exist.

Edit to clarify, I'm not arguing against trying. I agree on that but my inability to speak Spanish is most certainly not as a result of a lack of desire or effort. It sucks being out of the loop.

Completely agree. In school I was I was well above average in anything written in English yet completely struggled in languages (Irish, German, French). Even biology with all the Latin terminology was tough.

AndyBoBandy

We are a bi-lingual household as well (English & Lithuanian).

I actively encourage my OH and our son to speak as much Lithuanian as he can. He even goes to a Saturday Lithuanian school to help him better speak the language.
I want him to be able to communicate with his Lithuanian grandparents, and to be able to speak the language when we visit there (thankfully I speak a little as I lived there for 18 months).

It would be very unfair on a mother if she was told she can’t or shouldn’t speak to her child/children in her native tongue..

The children will grow up to be English speakers. Have no doubt about that. School and friends will see to that.
Like our son, they might be a bit slower picking up English (because they are picking up 2 languages), which is perfectly normal.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why haven't you learned at least the basics of her language, so that you can communicate with her family?

I was in the same situation as the OP but I learned to speak my wife's language fluently. It helped I lived and worked in her country for 5 years, although I easily could have done everything in English.

Problem in our house was that our second child flatly refused to speak anything other than English. Ironic isn't it.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

Don't try to learn it, just use it - mistakes and all - and take advantage of the presence of three native speakers in the house to tune your ear to the sounds of the words and phrases.

This is really excellent advice.

So many of us have hang-ups from learning languages at school where (ime) the main goal was to not look like an idiot in front of your mates. We get self conscious about what we can't say and not what we can.

Zebrag

Hi OP

Could you look at this in a positive way?

Maybe it's a great thing that you children can speak both language therefore if they do decide to go to a working environment of travel, they have both English and their mothers native language which could potentially lead them into learning other languages?

Ireland has so many different nationalities and it's nice to see all connections being made through learning languages.

It could lead help them immensely as they get older and go into the world of learning different skills and languages.

Would you be willing to learn as well? It might be fun to be in a house hold that speaks two languages

NewFatherHere

I know a couple living in France. Father is Spanish and mother is German. They both spoke to the kids in their native language and the kids were schooled in French so they were tri-lingual from an early age.

NewFatherHere wrote: »

my Daughter answers me in her Mothers native language even if I speak in English to her ... Understanding she wants to maintain her heritage with our kids, I am totally ok with that but I had hoped we'd take a hybrid approach. 50/50. That's not the case

This is between you and your daughter, not you and your wife. It's up to you to reinforce the idea that she speaks English with you. It won't always work, usually for no other reason than the child is tired or cranky or WANTS to pee you off, but that's normal and isn't about the language. There are two of you so it IS 50/50.

NewFatherHere wrote: »

It was a whirlwind romance. Married after barely two years, first kid after 3 and now another. I have always wanted a Family and couldn't be happier on that front, becoming and being a Husband and Father is the best thing to every happen to me.

OP, you might want to consider another issue than language. You are young, married with two kids after a whirlwind romance having "always wanted" to be a father. It's POSSIBLE that real life is not measuring up to the idea you had in your head ... which is completely normal and happens to a lot of us! If you'd fallen in love with a woman who spoke the same language, this wouldn't be an issue. But you met and fell in love with a woman from a different country so it just requires an adjustment or an adaptation.

Just something to consider.

lainey_d_123

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

it's self learning and I don't get to speak it that often, I'd have a large vocabulary but I rarely get to practice talking with people. I could certainly partake in the conversations the OP is talking about but I wouldn't be able to speak fluently. I don't know anyone who is proficient after a year or two in any language, or maybe I have high standards!
Anyway Spanish is a totally different ball game to Polish, which would be far more difficult.
But you're right a basic understanding wouldn't be too hard to get to grips with.
If DuoLingo does Polish, that's where I'd start OP, it's fun and a really excellent free app.

Not sure what it has to do with your idea of 'standards'. If you're implying that my idea of proficient isn't actually proficient, you are very wrong. I started teaching myself Spanish and sat and passed a B2 (upper intermediate level) exam less than two years later. That was part time self learning, no teacher, not even any time in Spain at all, and before YouTube or other internet resources existed. Just a few textbooks, some dodgy internet radio station I listened to in the evenings and a few Spanish films on DVD. I passed the C2 (proficiency - basically native speaker level) exam about a decade after that, having studied the language on and off (mostly off - and I mean gaps of 2-3 years without using it at all). I admit I probably have an aptitude for languages but I'd say you are the outlier if you couldn't hold a fluent conversation after 15 years.


Polish is more difficult, especially the grammar, but he hardly needs to be fluent...why can he not learn with the kids? The basic vocab for things like food items, cutlery and other everyday things is learnable within a week or two. Things like hello, how are you, fine thanks, please, etc. are easily learnable in any language. It's pretty poor form to declare that something is too difficult when a 3-year-old can manage it. He could get himself an elementary Polish book and have the basics nailed within the month.

I do realise Polish is a slog but I don't think it's acceptable for a grown man to deny his children the fantastic opportunity of becoming fully bilingual because it makes him feel left out. His feelings are not more important than his children's education and future. It's a bloody tough old world and the kids will need all the help they can get - being bilingual will be a great asset for them, and it would make things easier for him too when visiting the wife's home country and talking to older relatives. Why would you not??

LegacyUser

Hi Op, have not read the whole thread. but.. I have a 7 year old and a very similar family set up to yours. When the child was small, up to the age of three, he only spoke my native language, as he spent all his time with me and no school preschool creche etc. After the age of 3.5 after he started preschool his English got so good that now he does not speak a word my my language back. I speak our language to him, he answers in English. The point is, this will all sort itself out. Give it a few years and you will be whining that your daughters are not bilingual and only speak english.

LegacyUser

My mother is 74 and she started learning Spanish last year. She'll never be 100% fluent but she's picked up a lot of words and expressions so saying its' just impossible to learn a language once over a certain age is rubbish.

The OP doesn't need to be fluent in his wife's language, he's children are toddlers, he can pick up most of the same words they can at that age. That's what my friend has done with his wife whose from Poland. They've a 3 year old and my friend can't speak fluently at all but he'll say 'lets (read) together' or Do you want (juice) with the (word) in polish. Hell I do this in work, we've loads of non irish co-workers and they all have started using doras for door cus that's what I always use, they don't speak any other Irish but they all know what door is!

I'm not surprised his wife speaks her own language around the kids, I'm betting sometimes it's intentional and other times it's not, she would automatically switch to speaking to her kids they way her own mother spoke to her when she was a kid - all the kids songs and stories she knows are most likely not things she knows in English or they don't translate correctly into english.

OP I'd use this as a way to bond with your kids, get them to teach you words they know in the other language, make it a game. If you try and stop your wife speaking to them in her language she's going to feel her kids are cut off from her culture and they will miss out connecting with their grandparents/cousins etc

ILoveYourVibes

NewFatherHere wrote: »

Hello Good People,

I know I should be speaking with my Wife about these things rather than posting about it online but I needed to get my thoughts down on paper first and perhaps get some advice and perspective, which would be greatly appriciated.

My ( late twenties ) wife ( early twenties ) of 3 years and I have two girls together, a 3 year old and a newborn. I am Irish, she is from eastern Europe.

It was a whirlwind romance. Married after barely two years, first kid after 3 and now another. I have always wanted a Family and couldn't be happier on that front, becoming and being a Husband and Father is the best thing to every happen to me.

Naturally I always understood that my Wife's native language is not English. However, she has lived here a lof of her life so is completely fluent in English. Her family live here too. She always speaks her native language around them though as they still struggle with it.

My issue ? ( I hate using the word issue ); She speaks her native language to both our kids constantly. Not just a little bit, it's the entire time. I feel alienated and an outsider as a Parent when she does this. I have no idea what shes saying or what they are saying back. In principle and back in the early days I was thinking this would be great, my kids learning two languages natively growing up. They are like sponges at this age. Fast forward 3 years and my Daughter answers me in her Mothers native language even if I speak in English to her. I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn. I have been as opened minded and patient as possible. Put myself in her shoes. Understanding she wants to maintain her heritage with our kids, I am totally ok with that but I had hoped we'd take a hybrid approach. 50/50. That's not the case.

I talk to my kids in English all of the time. I read them Bed time stories, she reads them stories in her language. They call out for the books in my wifes language more than they do with English which then means she's reading to them more.

I just feel a little lost and not entirely included in the parenting of my girls.

I have brought it up a few times, she says she'll try speak English more but it never lasts. I have not brought it up too often because I honestly feel like an ass.

Advice welcomed, thank you

You need her learn her language.

Full stop. There is no excuse not to.

You realize for a child to acquire bi lingualism is harder than you think . If she doesn't do this. It won't happen.

Its an english dominant culture.

When they go to school it will all be in English.

You are alienating yourself by not learning your wife's language.

Also being bilingual is in your children's best interests. It helps them learn other languages.

Also receptive fluency (understanding) is different from espressive fluency (speak or writing).

Its why children can often understand everything but not speak.

Your children will resent you if you stop them from learning.

Also maybe you need to ask yourself why they gravitate towards things to do with their mother rather than the language you speak.

Its your relationship that is alienating you. Not a language.

Sometimes i think to be a father you must put your own feelings aside and do what is best for them not you.

BTW children don't learn things more easily than adults. You could be easily learning just as fast as them from your wife. You just need commitment self belief and discipline.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

BTW children don't learn things more easily than adults. You could be easily learning just as fast as them from your wife. You just need commitment self belief and discipline.

thats a very ignorant statement. Pretty much every expert in the field states that children absord at a better rate and children born to a bilingual houshold have a clear advantage in languages.

I said it before but for some reason you dont to understand it, languages are a skillset just like art or sport. not everyone is equal at everything.

ILoveYourVibes

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

thats a very ignorant statement. Pretty much every expert in the field states that children absord at a better rate and children born to a bilingual houshold have a clear advantage in languages.

I said it before but for some reason you dont to understand it, languages are a skillset just like art or sport. not everyone is equal at everything.

As someone who speaks a second language fluently ...that they learned as a child ...i might not be as ignorant about it as you think.

Yes living in a bi lingual household is an advantage. However many children who group up with both parents speaking a language at home lose it entirely after they start going to school and speaking english 5 hrs a day.

Its not harder for me to learn another language now. Its just i have less opportunity. Less time.

OP you have a perfect oppertunity learn a second language. You should take it. It will help you when you go on trips to your wife's country etc. It will help you connect with her family.

Neyite

I've a few nieces and nephews who have a foreign-language parent and what happened was that the Irish parent picked up an awful lot of the language from it being spoken in the home. To the point where they could converse with ease when they went to visit.


Also for university, the CAO calculates the points of your six best subjects. A fluency in a language meant that they were able to do the honours paper without any study, and were able to disregard a subject that they didn't do so well with. So assuming that the language in your home is one that you can do a LC paper for, it might be worthwhile to have it.

Hoboo

Think you need to start having the stories read to you too, and try join in learning a new language.

Kids are also great teachers, get the eldest to teach you words and phrases. They also get great craic from watching adults trying to pronounce words. My 6 year old French cousin was the best teacher I ever had.

lainey_d_123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

thats a very ignorant statement. Pretty much every expert in the field states that children absord at a better rate and children born to a bilingual houshold have a clear advantage in languages.

I said it before but for some reason you dont to understand it, languages are a skillset just like art or sport. not everyone is equal at everything.

There are also plenty of studies refuting that. Children tend to be able to speak with a good accent/pronunciation if they learn a language very young, but adults often do far better at learning grammar.

I taught both children and adults overseas and it was common for the adults to make better progress. Children are sponges in that they mimic sounds better and question things less (the 'why?' questions adults often have can often be a barrier to learning) but they're not some magical beings. OP's kids aren't sitting there discussing Tolstoy, they're asking for more ketchup on their dinner or saying they're not hungry or something. Small children have a limited capacity for conversation and there's no reason whatsoever that OP himself couldn't be picking up words and phrases at the same rate they are.

This idea that languages are some special magical skill is nonsense spouted by lazy people who can't be bothered to make an effort. There are very few people who are genuinely incapable of picking up languages if they actually make a genuine effort. OP could easily be writing down 10 new Polish words a day and going over them a few times every day. That's 70 words a week and 280 words in a month. Probably as many words as his kids know. But it's easier to sit and whinge about feeling left out than actually put in the work.

LLMMLL

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

There are also plenty of studies refuting that. Children tend to be able to speak with a good accent/pronunciation if they learn a language very young, but adults often do far better at learning grammar.

I taught both children and adults overseas and it was common for the adults to make better progress. Children are sponges in that they mimic sounds better and question things less (the 'why?' questions adults often have can often be a barrier to learning) but they're not some magical beings. OP's kids aren't sitting there discussing Tolstoy, they're asking for more ketchup on their dinner or saying they're not hungry or something. Small children have a limited capacity for conversation and there's no reason whatsoever that OP himself couldn't be picking up words and phrases at the same rate they are.

This idea that languages are some special magical skill is nonsense spouted by lazy people who can't be bothered to make an effort. There are very few people who are genuinely incapable of picking up languages if they actually make a genuine effort. OP could easily be writing down 10 new Polish words a day and going over them a few times every day. That's 70 words a week and 280 words in a month. Probably as many words as his kids know. But it's easier to sit and whinge about feeling left out than actually put in the work.

I think ye are mixing up two different aspects of language "learning"

Bilingual children are not taught a language. They are not instructed in grammar rules. They infer these rules themselves from being immersed with a native speaker or speakers (in this case one of their parents). It is highly probable that this process is part of their early developmental process. You could put an 8 year old or an adult in the same environment and you would not have the same results.

Now whether an 8 year old who has never heard Polish before would be any better at learning it through formal lessons than an adult who has never heard Polish before I don't know. But that's not the situation we are talking about.

lainey_d_123

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think ye are mixing up two different aspects of language "learning"

Bilingual children are not taught a language. They are not instructed in grammar rules. They infer these rules themselves from being immersed with a native speaker or speakers (in this case one of their parents). It is highly probable that this process is part of their early developmental process. You could put an 8 year old or an adult in the same environment and you would not have the same results.

Now whether an 8 year old who has never heard Polish before would be any better at learning it through formal lessons than an adult who has never heard Polish before I don't know. But that's not the situation we are talking about.

But children who speak a language at home and aren't educated it aren't necessarily all that proficient in it. There are people who don't even believe that true bilinguals exist.

I started teaching myself Spanish when I was about 16 (way past the age which is supposedly ideal for learning languages). I had only been to Spain for the first time that year, and I thought the language sounded cool and I wanted to try learning it. I taught myself with textbooks and dodgy CDs borrowed from the library in the little spare time I had with my Leaving Cert and my part time job. By the time I went to Spain on Erasmus aged 20, my Spanish was at a higher level than most of the Irish/Brits I met there who had grown up with a Spanish parent. I might not have had quite as good an accent or as strong a knowledge of idioms and expressions but my grammar was really, really good and I was able to speak fluently about just about anything I could discuss in English. When I went to sit my C2 exam aged 30, I was pretty much the only one in the room who hadn't grown up 'bilingual'. I was also one of the two of us who passed it.

Point is, it's completely possible to become very proficient in a language later in life, let alone learn just enough to be able to understand what's going on between a mother and a three-year-old at the dinner table. It doesn't matter if his accent is crap or he never manages to nail the grammar. He just wants to understand what's going on. That is extremely doable with a relatively small amount of effort.

SouthWesterly

My wife is Slovak. Learned English going out with me.
Speaks to the kids in Slovak. She speaks To her parents every day.
The kids speak a little slovak with the grand parents but mainly English.

I've irish friends abroad and the kids can switch between 5 languages.

Wait till your kids are in school and things will change this age is perfect for getting a grounding in Polish.

I actually think you're being over sensitive in all this.

Antares35

Hi OP, am following because my other half is French and we have a little girl (4 months) and I've told him to speak only french to her - she will have English everywhere else. And I want her to be fluent in both. But I'm interested in what others think and obviously your insight is very valuable! I hadn't really thought about the isolation but it is a very big consideration now that I think about it! I had school level French but planning to do an online course to brush up. It's been a good few years!

ILoveYourVibes

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Children are sponges in that they mimic sounds better

Not really true.

Most bilingual kids have an accent in the minority language.

Most bilingual hispanic kids have an American accent in spanish.

For a while when i lived in another country (spanish speaking)...i brought that accent into my english. Then when i moved back here ..i brought my irish accent into spanish.



Once you speak two languages ....one accent nearly always influences the other. But its fluid ...and tends to be if you are out of practice of one language ..i mean you can still understand and speak it ..but you sound a bit foreign.

True Bi lingualism is possible but its rare well maybe not 'rare'...and you do have to work at it. And usually you have one primary language ..

I tend to think though if you grew up with something as part of your heritage or culture ..i call it bi lingualism ..its a bit insulting to people otherwise.
It tends to be the primary care giver than needs to have the language.

I actually think you're being over sensitive in all this.

I agree.

CiboC

OP, make the effort to learn a bit of your partner's native language.

My wife is not Irish and has only ever spoken to our children in her native language. I learnt a bit when we started getting 'serious' to be able to communicate with family.

Don't worry about making mistakes, don't worry about getting your grammar right, just jump in. You will find your comprehension of the language will increase if you listen at home and try to join in, although a lot of vocabulary will be 'pick up your shoes!' and 'Tidy your room!'

You are overthinking it, if they go to school here they will always have English as their 'primary' language.

rapul

Just going to repeat what others have said. My son is half Polish and is just past 4, it's not that hard to learn the language with ur kid or as stated before a few words a day, I went to Poland the first time not knowing any of the language but learnt alot having to find my way around, back arse of Poland has no English and her family of course had no English so it was either speak in Polish German or Russian!

Definitely beneficial for your kid aswell, I don't have the Polish tongue for pronunciations but can speak it where as my son has the tongue for English and Polish, lucky, just keep at it yourself all you have is time with your family anyway

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

This idea that languages are some special magical skill is nonsense spouted by lazy people who can't be bothered to make an effort. There are very few people who are genuinely incapable of picking up languages if they actually make a genuine effort. OP could easily be writing down 10 new Polish words a day and going over them a few times every day. That's 70 words a week and 280 words in a month. Probably as many words as his kids know. But it's easier to sit and whinge about feeling left out than actually put in the work.

Sorry, but that is just totally superficial rubbish.

Learning vocabulary is not learning a language.

I have a very substantial vocabulary of Polish. But while I can often kind of follow a discussion, the diabolical grammar precludes me from claiming that I am 'picking up the language'. If I were immersed in it, maybe a different story, but I'm not sure.

Whereas Irish came so easily to me. French too, later, partly I suppose because of the cognates.

Equally, I know a Polish woman who has made huge attempts to learn English both formally - spent a small fortune - and informally, and after 12+ years it's shockingly bad.

So please don't be tiresome with your 'can't be bothered to make an effort' line. The whole world knows that languages come easily to some, and with great difficulty to others.

JustAThought

The core problem is that, like with many men when their children are born, their wife becomes baby obsessed and focuses all conversation and comments at the baby rather than the husband. Only in this case its also in a foreign language. The husband is being frozen out from a normal family relationship and interaction with both his wife and his children and is feeling isolated and lonely. Speak with your wife OP - you want to be included in your familys everyday interactions and not permanently frozen out. 3 or 4 years prior to attending school is a lit to be actively excluded from. Is she is going to continue this every mealtime until they are 18 - your relationship was founded and established in english on Irish soil - is it her intention to freeze tou out now that your role of provider and sperm donor is fulfilled? Or does she expect you to accept being excluded from every interaction and left on the side like a dooe while they laugh and play together at your emotional cost? It shows a shocking lack of empathy and basic manners on her part. I guess you don’t invite your family over and sit there around the table talking Irish with them every day - a language I gather she does not speak. It shows appalling manners and lack of consideration not to mention a poor signifier of where your relationship is at or headed.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

As someone who speaks a second language fluently ...that they learned as a child ...i might not be as ignorant about it as you think.

Yes living in a bi lingual household is an advantage. However many children who group up with both parents speaking a language at home lose it entirely after they start going to school and speaking english 5 hrs a day.

Its not harder for me to learn another language now. Its just i have less opportunity. Less time.

OP you have a perfect oppertunity learn a second language. You should take it. It will help you when you go on trips to your wife's country etc. It will help you connect with her family.

It makes your judgement of the op even worse. You are not in the same boat.

Children will stop using a language, but they don't lose it. It comes back amazingly fast when they are put back into the situation where it's used.

Yes the op would be better off learning if he can but not everyone can just as not everyone can earn a degree in experimental physics or classical art. Skills and abilities are not equal amount the entire human race.

How many times should people tell you they have tried to learn a second language and couldn't? It's a skill. You insist on ignoring that.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

The core problem is that, like with many men when their children are born, their wife becomes baby obsessed and focuses all conversation and comments at the baby rather than the husband. Only in this case its also in a foreign language. The husband is being frozen out from a normal family relationship and interaction with both his wife and his children and is feeling isolated and lonely. Speak with your wife OP - you want to be included in your familys everyday interactions and not permanently frozen out. 3 or 4 years prior to attending school is a lit to be actively excluded from. Is she is going to continue this every mealtime until they are 18 - your relationship was founded and established in english on Irish soil - is it her intention to freeze tou out now that your role of provider and sperm donor is fulfilled? Or does she expect you to accept being excluded from every interaction and left on the side like a dooe while they laugh and play together at your emotional cost? It shows a shocking lack of empathy and basic manners on her part. I guess you don’t invite your family over and sit there around the table talking Irish with them every day - a language I gather she does not speak. It shows appalling manners and lack of consideration not to mention a poor signifier of where your relationship is at or headed.

She probable expects him to be a grown up and not a spoilt child that's upset at not being the center of the universe. I don't get this childish behavior. You had kids, they are naturally the highest priority for both parents.

It's not the same as Irish because he's probably ****e at that too. If he's fluent then he should absolutely speak it with his kids.

The more languages that the child can speak, the better. If they have other skills they should pass them on too.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

There are also plenty of studies refuting that. Children tend to be able to speak with a good accent/pronunciation if they learn a language very young, but adults often do far better at learning grammar.

I taught both children and adults overseas and it was common for the adults to make better progress. Children are sponges in that they mimic sounds better and question things less (the 'why?' questions adults often have can often be a barrier to learning) but they're not some magical beings. OP's kids aren't sitting there discussing Tolstoy, they're asking for more ketchup on their dinner or saying they're not hungry or something. Small children have a limited capacity for conversation and there's no reason whatsoever that OP himself couldn't be picking up words and phrases at the same rate they are.

This idea that languages are some special magical skill is nonsense spouted by lazy people who can't be bothered to make an effort. There are very few people who are genuinely incapable of picking up languages if they actually make a genuine effort. OP could easily be writing down 10 new Polish words a day and going over them a few times every day. That's 70 words a week and 280 words in a month. Probably as many words as his kids know. But it's easier to sit and whinge about feeling left out than actually put in the work.

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

I spent 3 years teaching English in northern Spain. I also spent those 3 years attending Spanish classes. Children are far better at absorbing the skill than adults. Far better. Different people have skills in certain fields. This is not argued but anyone with sense.

I also thought classical art. Not everyone in the class was equal in skill or ability and not one in the class was as good as me by the end.

I'm unsure how many times the words SKILL and ABILITY need to be mentioned in this thread. I'm also baffled why people with an ability for languages can't seem to fathom that it's not shared by everyone else. Mathematicians don't expect everyone to understand the subject. Professional athletes don't expect the world to be as skillful. Leonardo da vinci knew he was a very skilled and gifted artist. Einstein knew he was a genius that understood he was operating at a higher level than much of his audience.

If you and vibes are good at languages, fantastic. I'm jealous. I really am. I would gladly exchange that ability for mine because mine is a hobby I don't even get time to do anymore. Yours is a skill with real world benefits.

Now I'm off to study Irish, again, at forty ****ing five because this poxy country won't promote me without a basic level of a language I have never used in my entire life.

JustAThought

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

She probable expects him to be a grown up and not a spoilt child that's upset at not being the center of the universe. I don't get this childish behavior. You had kids, they are naturally the highest priority for both parents.

It's not the same as Irish because he's probably ****e at that too. If he's fluent then he should absolutely speak it with his kids.

The more languages that the child can speak, the better. If they have other skills they should pass them on too.

you and his OH seem both blind to empathy with the OP and to realising the serious issue of socially isolating a man from both his wife and children in all mixed social family communications. And no, the relationship between partners does not become less important or insignificant and worthless when children are born - it needs constant nurturing or else it will die. No greater way to kill a friendship ir relationship than to freeze someone out or just ignore and socially isolate them.

s1ippy

I think it's clear that the problem here is the OP's difficulty with English.

JustAThought

s1ippy wrote: »

I think it's clear that the problem here is the OP's difficulty with English.

?????

Did
you
even
read
the
OP’s
post?

ILoveYourVibes

OP what are you going to do tell the kids and your wife not to speak their language around you?

I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn.

WELL DONE! Now you just have to learn the idioms and some grammar. You are almost there

Slavic languages are not easy. Well done on getting so far!

suicide_circus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why haven't you learned at least the basics of her language, so that you can communicate with her family?

You may have answered your own question there.

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

You may have answered your own question there.

Well this is a good point.

OP your kids won't be able to talk to their grandparents on their mothers side i presume without the language?

jester77

OP, that is very unfair what you are proposing. It's good for the kids to learn the 2 languages so that they can communicate with both families. Learning a language is not hard, what do you do when you are in your partner's native country? You should start learning it.

My kids are bilingual, it's nice watching them switch between languages when different family members are around. I'm still trying to get then to answer me in English, but having no luck. They have always answered me in my partners language because they know I speak it.

Hani Kosti

Just two cents from someone who's in your wife's position.
Irish partner, our daughter is 3, i speak to her in my mother tongue majority of the time, she goes to creche and started with Irish too.
There are huge benefits in raising a multilingual child as mentioned by few posters previously.
I want my child to be able to speak with her grandparents (or at least understand them) even if she never uses the language dully. It is also opportunity for dad to learn basics in my language and i get the bonus of some Irish.
Your kids are immersed in English on a daily basis so no need to worry their English wouldn't be spot on.
Personally i think you should consider yourself and your children lucky and look at this as opportunity rather than an issue

Frankie Machine

All fine and well for people to be pontificating about the joys of multilingualism, but it doesn't solve a real problem that the OP mentioned in the opening post - ie that when he addresses his daughter in English, she responds in her mother's native tongue.

Theres an imbalance there, that needs addressing.

lainey_d_123

JustAThought wrote: »

The core problem is that, like with many men when their children are born, their wife becomes baby obsessed and focuses all conversation and comments at the baby rather than the husband. Only in this case its also in a foreign language. The husband is being frozen out from a normal family relationship and interaction with both his wife and his children and is feeling isolated and lonely. Speak with your wife OP - you want to be included in your familys everyday interactions and not permanently frozen out. 3 or 4 years prior to attending school is a lit to be actively excluded from. Is she is going to continue this every mealtime until they are 18 - your relationship was founded and established in english on Irish soil - is it her intention to freeze tou out now that your role of provider and sperm donor is fulfilled? Or does she expect you to accept being excluded from every interaction and left on the side like a dooe while they laugh and play together at your emotional cost? It shows a shocking lack of empathy and basic manners on her part. I guess you don’t invite your family over and sit there around the table talking Irish with them every day - a language I gather she does not speak. It shows appalling manners and lack of consideration not to mention a poor signifier of where your relationship is at or headed.

This is absolutely pathetic. If a man feels 'excluded' because he's no longer the centre of the universe like a spoiled child, that's on him. There's absolutely nothing to stop him learning the language and joining in. If he were a native Irish speaker, it would also be normal for him to talk to the kids in Irish, and he'd probably expect his wife to suck it up.

Yes, I do know a lot of entitled men who can't accept being the centre of attention at all times and seem to resent the wife for prioritising the children (as she damn well should - they are dependent). It's not some failing of the mother of the children, it's all on them for their lack of effort and childish attitude.

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

All fine and well for people to be pontificating about the joys of multilingualism, but it doesn't solve a real problem that the OP mentioned in the opening post - ie that when he addresses his daughter in English, she responds in her mother's native tongue.

Theres an imbalance there, that needs addressing.

It's unlikely to keep happening once she gets it straight in her head that they are two different languages and one is for Mammy and the other is for most of the people where she lives. Once she starts playgroup/school and playing with other kids she will soon cop on that most people don't understand Mammy's language. I've known countless bilingual families in my time and it's never been an issue once.