Wife speaking her native language to our kids and I feel alienated

lainey_d_123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

I spent 3 years teaching English in northern Spain. I also spent those 3 years attending Spanish classes. Children are far better at absorbing the skill than adults. Far better. Different people have skills in certain fields. This is not argued but anyone with sense.

I also thought classical art. Not everyone in the class was equal in skill or ability and not one in the class was as good as me by the end.

I'm unsure how many times the words SKILL and ABILITY need to be mentioned in this thread. I'm also baffled why people with an ability for languages can't seem to fathom that it's not shared by everyone else. Mathematicians don't expect everyone to understand the subject. Professional athletes don't expect the world to be as skillful. Leonardo da vinci knew he was a very skilled and gifted artist. Einstein knew he was a genius that understood he was operating at a higher level than much of his audience.

If you and vibes are good at languages, fantastic. I'm jealous. I really am. I would gladly exchange that ability for mine because mine is a hobby I don't even get time to do anymore. Yours is a skill with real world benefits.

Now I'm off to study Irish, again, at forty ****ing five because this poxy country won't promote me without a basic level of a language I have never used in my entire life.

I love how you think your anecdotal experience is somehow more valid than mine.

I'm not refuting that some people aren't naturally better at languages than others. That doesn't mean that the people who don't have that natural ability can't learn. I also taught English for years (way longer than you) and the vast, vast majority of people are perfectly capable of learning a language if they put the effort in. The only students I have ever had who made little progress either had serious learning disabilities or absolutely no interest or motivation.

Languages aren't some magical skill that fall from the sky into people's brains - they require effort, like everything else. I'm not naturally good at maths and have no brain for numbers at all. I often have to grab a calculator for fairly basic calculations. I still did reasonably well in my Leaving Cert maths through pure hard work. I had to work way harder than for any other subject, but I did it. I also retrained as a developer at the age of 33, despite programming not coming easily to me either. I had some really dark moments where I felt like I'd never get there and I just didn't have the aptitude. Moments where I felt like the slowest, thickest person in the world, where everyone except me had grasped a concept. I did get there. I'm a developer now.

You're making faulty comparisons between Einstein and elite athletes and someone learning a language to a conversational level. This is totally lacking in logic. On the topic of elite athletes, no, most people are not going to be Andy Murray or Simone Biles, but most people can learn to play a game of tennis. Most people can learn how to do forward rolls, handstands and cartwheels. Nobody is saying that OP can or should learn Polish to a level that allows him to work as an interpreter at the European Commission, they are saying he can learn the basics and aim to be able to understand household conversations. The idea that he is incapable of learning enough vocabulary to understand a three-year-old is ludicrous.

eviltwin

My mother is foreign and never spoke to us in her native tongue because it was seen as inappropriate not to use English. As a result I have a passable ability to speak her language but regretful that I don't have the same fluency other children have in their parents.

I also feel a bit sorry for my mother that something so personal to her as her culture was being diluted because she lived here. Language is a gift and there is no better way to learn than to be around a native speaker and pick it up by osmosis. It will be huge benefit to the children.

Obviously the wife has gone to the trouble and effort to learn English, I can't see why the OP can't do the same.

Frankie Machine

eviltwin wrote: »

Obviously the wife has gone to the trouble and effort to learn English, I can't see why the OP can't do the same.

False equivalence.

The motivation to take the 'trouble and effort' of learning English because you're coming to live and work in an English-speaking country is in no way, no how, related to the motivation to slog through a radically different language, when you may not be intrinsically interested in doing so, and where there is no urgent and compelling need to do so.

There's really no mystery to it. Few enough people willingly undertake it, far fewer again would do so in terms of a Slavic language, compared with the Romance languages with which we have at least some familiarity.

strandroad

Frankie Machine wrote: »

the motivation to slog through a radically different language, when you may not be intrinsically interested in doing so, and where there is no urgent and compelling need to do so.

Then why would you marry someone just to tell them that their language is a slog, you've no interest in participating in their culture and the relationship will be conducted exclusively in English? And that you'll have issues with them sharing their language with children?

It's very close-minded and almost patronising: "your culture is not worth the effort, we'll use mine".

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I love how you think your anecdotal experience is somehow more valid than mine.

I'm not refuting that some people aren't naturally better at languages than others. That doesn't mean that the people who don't have that natural ability can't learn. I also taught English for years (way longer than you) and the vast, vast majority of people are perfectly capable of learning a language if they put the effort in. The only students I have ever had who made little progress either had serious learning disabilities or absolutely no interest or motivation.

Languages aren't some magical skill that fall from the sky into people's brains - they require effort, like everything else. I'm not naturally good at maths and have no brain for numbers at all. I often have to grab a calculator for fairly basic calculations. I still did reasonably well in my Leaving Cert maths through pure hard work. I had to work way harder than for any other subject, but I did it. I also retrained as a developer at the age of 33, despite programming not coming easily to me either. I had some really dark moments where I felt like I'd never get there and I just didn't have the aptitude. Moments where I felt like the slowest, thickest person in the world, where everyone except me had grasped a concept. I did get there. I'm a developer now.

You're making faulty comparisons between Einstein and elite athletes and someone learning a language to a conversational level. This is totally lacking in logic. On the topic of elite athletes, no, most people are not going to be Andy Murray or Simone Biles, but most people can learn to play a game of tennis. Most people can learn how to do forward rolls, handstands and cartwheels. Nobody is saying that OP can or should learn Polish to a level that allows him to work as an interpreter at the European Commission, they are saying he can learn the basics and aim to be able to understand household conversations. The idea that he is incapable of learning enough vocabulary to understand a three-year-old is ludicrous.

All of this right here, goes against your original statement.

Slavic languages are damn hard to learn and in order to partake in a normal flowing conversation then yes, you are required to a reach an almost fluent level. Theres a big difference between knowing a how to play tennis and being genuinely good at it. The same difference between tourist Spanish and sitting eatting tapas enjoying a conversation with a native speaker. I can play tennis, I can survive on my own in Madrid. See what Im trying to get at?

Languages do indeed not fall from the sky and as you point out, maths is hard for you. It needs a lot of work. Imagine a mathmatician looking down their nose at you because you cant grasp high level maths like they do. thats what you did to the OP.

The OP has tried, he has worked at it and gotten a certain level. You basically told him to man up and make an effort. It was condescending.

I may not agree with his attitude towards the situation but I understand his frustration at finding it so difficult.

In regards your experience. It should have included research and accepted stances on the subject which again, your original indifferent attitude went again. Your still doing it with your belief that everyone can. Your students went to you to learn, the desire or requirement was there. People that had no aptitide for the subject as a general rule, wont seek it out as adults. Languages, maths, arts, athletics. its all the same, people that are good and enjoy them seek to continue in them. Those that are bad, do not unless they actually need to. Therefore your adult students are not an example of the 'bad at it' grouping just as my art students were not an example of the people that cant draw anything better than a stick man.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

you and his OH seem both blind to empathy with the OP and to realising the serious issue of socially isolating a man from both his wife and children in all mixed social family communications. And no, the relationship between partners does not become less important or insignificant and worthless when children are born - it needs constant nurturing or else it will die. No greater way to kill a friendship ir relationship than to freeze someone out or just ignore and socially isolate them.

You need to read the actual thread instead of jumping in at the end.

That and claiming that a husband is not secondary to a child. What the actual ****?

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

My mother is foreign and never spoke to us in her native tongue because it was seen as inappropriate not to use English. As a result I have a passable ability to speak her language but regretful that I don't have the same fluency other children have in their parents.

I also feel a bit sorry for my mother that something so personal to her as her culture was being diluted because she lived here. Language is a gift and there is no better way to learn than to be around a native speaker and pick it up by osmosis. It will be huge benefit to the children.

Obviously the wife has gone to the trouble and effort to learn English, I can't see why the OP can't do the same.

For starters, we has tried. he has said so and achieved a fairly basic level. Again, because not everyone can learn a language.

Seriously, why do people struggle to understand this concept?

lainey_d_123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

All of this right here, goes against your original statement.

Slavic languages are damn hard to learn and in order to partake in a normal flowing conversation then yes, you are required to a reach a fluent level.

Languages do indeed not fall from the sky and as you point out, maths is hard for you. It needs a lot of work. Imagine a mathmatician looking down their nose at you because you cant grasp high level maths like they do. thats what you did to the OP.

The OP has tried, he has worked at it and gotten a certain level. You basically told him to man up and make an effort. It was condescending.

I may not agree with his attitude towards the situation but I understand his frustration at finding it so difficult.

In regards your experience. It should have included research and accepted stances on the subject which again, your original indifferent attitude went again. Your still doing it with your belief that everyone can. Your students went to you to learn, the desire or requirement was there. People that had no aptitide for the subject as a general rule, wont seek it out as adults. Languages, maths, arts, athletics. its all the same, people that are good and enjoy them seek to continue in them. Those that are bad, do not unless they actually need to. Therefore your adult students are not an example of the 'bad at it' grouping just as my art students were not an example of the people that cant draw anything better than a stick man.

Just no.

A 'high level' of a language is being able to read novels in it or have in-depth conversations about the economy. We're talking about being able to understand a three year old here. There's no way that learning the basics of Polish is any more difficult than Leaving Cert maths.

I simply don't believe that anyone who has made 'every effort' to learn the language can't understand what a three year old is saying at the dinner table. I've met plenty of people in my time who said they were making an effort, but weren't at all. They would come to my class for an hour a week and expect to improve while doing nothing at all in between classes. There are plenty of people who are just intellectually lazy and will dismiss anything requiring a bit of effort or engagement as 'too much work'. The kind of person who buys a 'Learn Spanish in Three Weeks' CD and half heartedly listen when they're busy doing something else, and then complains that they haven't learned anything.

OP is expecting his wife to stop talking to the children in her own language so he doesn't feel left out. Rather than make a real, sustained effort to learn (or even accept that it's too much effort and make peace with not understanding it), he wants to damage the children's chances of learning the language fluently and prevent his wife from talking to her own children in her own language.

That IMO is disgracefully selfish.

lainey_d_123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

For starters, we has tried. he has said so and achieved a fairly basic level. Again, because not everyone can learn a language.

Seriously, why do people struggle to understand this concept?

Because it's not true. Anyone with a relatively 'normal' IQ who puts in a reasonable amount of effort can learn a language. I've had students in their seventies, I've had deaf students, blind students, dyslexic students, people with all sorts of barriers who were able to make progress.

OP hasn't mentioned any of these things, and he also has the enormous advantage of actual immersion, a native speaker on hand to help, and his kids to practise with. Most language learners could only dream of such a setup, and here you are making excuses for him.

The truth is a lot of people's idea of 'trying' at something isn't trying at all. It looks a bit difficult and like a bit too much effort and they think 'nah, can't be bothered'.

CalamariFritti

Probably said many times as it’s ten pages deep.
Would you consider learning her language too?

Can’t see any downsides to it tbh.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Just no.

Well with such a great arguement, How can I respond?

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

A 'high level' of a language is being able to read novels in it or have in-depth conversations about the economy.

Thats your view. Not mine and not most boards such as the Cambridge exams. I cant speak about your kids but mine were flying in both English and Spanish at 3. Beyond my Spanish anyway. At 8 they leave me for dead.

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

There's no way that learning the basics of Polish is any more difficult than Leaving Cert maths.

In YOUR OPINION because you struggle with maths and not languages. FFS why cant you get this? I find maths far easier than languages including Irish and I spent the same amount of time learning that as I did maths.

I cant say it any other way than 'horses for courses' but your reply seems to be, only for you and maths so theres little point in continuing

lainey_d_123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Well with such a great arguement, How can I respond?

You'll find that I responded in detail below that. If reading a message is such a challenge for you, I'm starting to understand your struggles with Spanish. It's not a 'foreign language' problem. Stubbornness and refusal to think outside of your own narrow idea of how things should be are some of the biggest (surmountable) barriers to language learning. I've had students who made enormous and rapid progress once they stopped making excuses and arguing with me and actually tried doing what I suggested (mostly changing their thought process).

Thats your view. Not mine and not most boards such as the Cambridge exams. I cant speak about your kids but mine were flying in both English and Spanish at 3. Beyond my Spanish anyway. At 8 they leave me for dead.

It isn't 'my view'. It's a fact. A2 level is considered a very modest and achievable level in a language. Most adults can achieve that with a couple of years of evening classes a few times a week. It's still more than enough to understand that gist of a basic conversation with a small child. It's possible your children are geniuses who were discussing abstract topics using complex sentence structure at the age of 3. It's far more likely that you are vastly overestimating the actual amount of grammar and vocabulary you need to know to be at that level.

Take this from someone who has done all of the DELE exam levels and taught Cambridge exam classes for years - you do not need to have the grammar or vocabulary needed to read novels and discuss complex issues until at least B2.

In YOUR OPINION because you struggle with maths and not languages. FFS why cant you get this? I find maths far easier than languages including Irish and I spent the same amount of time learning that as I did maths.

I cant say it any other way than 'horses for courses' but your reply seems to be, only for you and maths so theres little point in continuing

Good God, this is my entire point.

If you spent 'the same amount of time' learning Irish as maths when you find it far more challenging, then no wonder you made poor progress. You need to spend WAY more time on things that are challenging to make the same or less progress. I must have spent at least 10 times as much time on maths as I did on any of my other subjects. I must have put in two or three times the effort and time compared to other people on my programming course just to be at remotely the same level over the first few weeks, because I had no grasp of the basics. I was literally getting up at 5am and spending three hours going over everything we did the day before, then coming home and spending the evening watching YouTube videos on the topic we'd covered that day. I didn't put in the same amount of time as the strongest person in the class and then wonder why I was struggling. But it came together eventually and it paid off. Just like language learning also does.

You just do not seem to understand the concept of 'effort' or working hard to become proficient at something you're not naturally good at. At all.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You'll find that I responded in detail below that. If reading a message is such a challenge for you, I'm starting to understand your struggles with Spanish. It's not a 'foreign language' problem. Stubbornness and refusal to think outside of your own narrow idea of how things should be are some of the biggest (surmountable) barriers to language learning. I've had students who made enormous and rapid progress once they stopped making excuses and arguing with me and actually tried doing what I suggested (mostly changing their thought process).



It isn't 'my view'. It's a fact. A2 level is considered a very modest and achievable level in a language. Most adults can achieve that with a couple of years of evening classes a few times a week. It's still more than enough to understand that gist of a basic conversation with a small child. It's possible your children are geniuses who were discussing abstract topics using complex sentence structure at the age of 3. It's far more likely that you are vastly overestimating the actual amount of grammar and vocabulary you need to know to be at that level.

Take this from someone who has done all of the DELE exam levels and taught Cambridge exam classes for years - you do not need to have the grammar or vocabulary needed to read novels and discuss complex issues until at least B2.



Good God, this is my entire point.

If you spent 'the same amount of time' learning Irish as maths when you find it far more challenging, then no wonder you made poor progress. You need to spend WAY more time on things that are challenging to make the same or less progress. I must have spent at least 10 times as much time on maths as I did on any of my other subjects. I must have put in two or three times the effort and time compared to other people on my programming course just to be at remotely the same level over the first few weeks, because I had no grasp of the basics. I was literally getting up at 5am and spending three hours going over everything we did the day before, then coming home and spending the evening watching YouTube videos on the topic we'd covered that day. I didn't put in the same amount of time as the strongest person in the class and then wonder why I was struggling.

You just do not seem to understand the concept of 'effort' or working hard to become proficient at something you're not naturally good at. At all.

**** me ragged.

A2 is and I quote:
"Very basic personal, family and job-related language

Enough to meet the needs with slow, clear speech

Short, simple texts on familiar matter"

That is not conversational level. My children have conversations. In both English and Spanish. A 3 year old by the way uses the word 'why?@ a ****ing lot. A serious amount.

You are moving the goalposts now. Why did you say this at the start:

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

This idea that languages are some special magical skill is nonsense spouted by lazy people who can't be bothered to make an effort. There are very few people who are genuinely incapable of picking up languages if they actually make a genuine effort. OP could easily be writing down 10 new Polish words a day and going over them a few times every day. That's 70 words a week and 280 words in a month. Probably as many words as his kids know. But it's easier to sit and whinge about feeling left out than actually put in the work.

Replace the word 'languages' with 'maths' or 'animation'. Can you with an open mind see where that is insulting to people that struggle with languages? I would need a full week to remember the original ten words.

lainey_d_123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

**** me ragged. If this is your view and we essentially agree then why did you say this at the start:

Because we're not talking about passing Leaving Cert maths or becoming a professional developer with no programming background! We're talking about understanding a three year old!

Yes, it would probably take me less effort than you to learn 280 words of Polish. Is that an excuse for you just not to bother at all? Because I might remember all 10 new words the first time I spend ten minutes looking over them and it might take you 2 or 3 times to learn them all? What is OP so busy doing for 30 minutes a day that's more important than learning the language his wife and children speak?

You have been claiming all along that you have tried SO hard to learn Spanish but have failed because you're just bad at it. Where's the evidence you've tried? Your idea of 'trying' must be very different to mine.

If I had a penny for every person who has said to me they 'tried so hard' to learn Spanish and it amounted to a half hearted go on Duolingo and an hour a week of evening classes, I'd be rich.

When I was learning it, I was doing at least half an hour of exercises every day, listening to Spanish radio all evening, every evening, listening to Spanish songs on my way to school and back and going over new vocab in a notebook on the bus every day. Am I really that much of a linguistic genius or did I just actually, you know, put in some effort?

I would consider 'conversional' even a slow, basic conversation, but OK, let's move the goalposts to level B1, which is officially properly conversational. Are you telling me most people can't get to B1 level in a country they LIVE in?

Replace the word 'languages' with 'maths' or 'animation'. Can you with an open mind see where that is insulting to people that struggle with languages? I would need a full week to remember the original ten words.

So spend a week learning the original ten words. Is that not still better than not bothering at all? I do not understand your 'all or nothing' logic one bit. If you're not naturally good and you can't get good with minimal effort then, what? Don't even try?

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Because we're not talking about passing Leaving Cert maths or becoming a professional developer with no programming background! We're talking about understanding a three year old!

Yes, it would probably take me less effort than you to learn 280 words of Polish. Is that an excuse for you just not to bother at all? Because I might remember all 10 new words the first time I spend ten minutes looking over them and it might take you 2 or 3 times to learn them all? What is OP so busy doing for 30 minutes a day that's more important than learning the language his wife and children speak?

You have been claiming all along that you have tried SO hard to learn Spanish but have failed because you're just bad at it. Where's the evidence you've tried? Your idea of 'trying' must be very different to mine.

If I had a penny for every person who has said to me they 'tried so hard' to learn Spanish and it amounted to a half hearted go on Duolingo and an hour a week of evening classes, I'd be rich.

When I was learning it, I was doing at least half an hour of exercises every day, listening to Spanish radio all evening, every evening, listening to Spanish songs on my way to school and back and going over new vocab in a notebook on the bus every day. Am I really that much of a linguistic genius or did I just actually, you know, put in some effort?

I would consider 'conversional' even a slow, basic conversation, but OK, let's move the goalposts to level B1, which is officially properly conversational. Are you telling me most people can't get to B1 level in a country they LIVE in?



So spend a week learning the original ten words. Is that not still better than not bothering at all? I do not understand your 'all or nothing' logic one bit. If you're not naturally good and you can't get good with minimal effort then, what? Don't even try?

Im not going to bother engaging anymore with you on this. Your just being plain insulting again, for the second time.

I spent 5 years living in Asturias, You know how many people there speak English? Sweet **** All. I attended 4 hours a week with the red cross for 5 years in addition to being surrounded by Spanish speakers, working in a bilingual school and classes in Ireland prior to travelling.

coding isnt that hard to learn to many. Its not the holy grail of high maths you seem to think it is. Manby people look at your achievement and could think 'so what. thats simple' too. They choose not to.

Hannibal_Smith

Mod Note

Lainey_d_123 and niner leprechaun whilst I'm sure the OP can appreciate both of your very valid points, it is straying into discussion and talking around the OP, rather than advising them.

Leave it there for now and give the OP a chance to digest everything and come back on anything they want further advice on.

Thanks

HS

Limpy

Maybe you should learn her language with the kids?

Multipass

You’re so lucky, you have an easy route to learning a language - your wife and kids. Stop speaking English and before long you’ll be fluent. There’s never a downside to being bilingual. I don’t understand how you could be married and not want to be equally immersed in her language and culture.

Frankie Machine

strandroad wrote: »

Then why would you marry someone just to tell them that their language is a slog,

Off to a very jejune start there, it has to be said.

Id imagine a sensible person would be aware of their partner's opinion before marrying them. I also point out to you that generally, marriage is freely entered into here.

you've no interest in participating in their culture

You make a silly equivalence between language and culture. They're not the same thing at all.

Participation in Wigilia, Smigus Dyngus, Wielkanoc, doesn't require any such thing. Listening to Chopin certainly does not. The movies of Wajda come subtitled.

Lots of culture, and cultural understanding, is available without language.

and the relationship will be conducted exclusively in English?

That's up to the couple to decide. I don't feel the need to be prescriptive about it.

People do that, all the same, without feeling some kind of oppression. did you know that ?

And that you'll have issues with them sharing their language with children?

Not my position, nor am I aware that it is the OP's either, in principle.

Not just a little bit, it's the entire time. I feel alienated and an outsider as a Parent when she does this. I have no idea what shes saying or what they are saying back. In principle and back in the early days I was thinking this would be great, my kids learning two languages natively growing up.

The issue is rather one of degree.

Fast forward 3 years and my Daughter answers me in her Mothers native language even if I speak in English to her.

That is not right, can be corrected, and should be.

]It's very close-minded and almost patronising: "your culture is not worth the effort, we'll use mine".

For most, it's a pragmatic decision. Sometimes it needs to be reviewed, sometimes changed, sometimes people row back a little on their commitments.

Our friend has corrected her children on this very issue. It wouldn't be the end of the world for a mother to do that.

But again with your lazy equivalence between language and culture.

looksee

This is a three year old, as has been pointed out. The fact that she answers in her mother's language just suggests that she has not yet figured out there are two languages involved, she understands something said by the OP and just answers, she does not particularly sort out the language to answer in. As soon as she goes to playschool or school she will start using English more familiarly. It will get to a stage where English becomes the more usual language in the house, at which point your wife will have to make an effort to make sure the children learn to speak her language a level beyond a five year old's.

In the meantime it must be very relaxing for your wife to be able to communicate in her own language, if only to a three year old.

On the subject of how easy it is to learn a language, (and it sounds as though the OP has done brilliantly) my husband had the same theory, a person could learn anything if they set their mind to it, he told me so many times. He was a linguist and an academic. I was never a linguist and wasted many years trying to learn both French and Spanish with almost no long-lasting results. However it was amazing how many of the things I could do he never 'wanted' to do, he could not deal with processes, could not have planned anything that might be constructed, whether a house or assembling a piece of Ikea furniture. While it came naturally to me, he was completely incapable.

Don't tell people what they can do if they try, you have no idea, and it is condescending.

lainey_d_123

looksee wrote: »

This is a three year old, as has been pointed out. The fact that she answers in her mother's language just suggests that she has not yet figured out there are two languages involved, she understands something said by the OP and just answers, she does not particularly sort out the language to answer in. As soon as she goes to playschool or school she will start using English more familiarly. It will get to a stage where English becomes the more usual language in the house, at which point your wife will have to make an effort to make sure the children learn to speak her language a level beyond a five year old's.

In the meantime it must be very relaxing for your wife to be able to communicate in her own language, if only to a three year old.

On the subject of how easy it is to learn a language, (and it sounds as though the OP has done brilliantly) my husband had the same theory, a person could learn anything if they set their mind to it, he told me so many times. He was a linguist and an academic. I was never a linguist and wasted many years trying to learn both French and Spanish with almost no long-lasting results. However it was amazing how many of the things I could do he never 'wanted' to do, he could not deal with processes, could not have planned anything that might be constructed, whether a house or assembling a piece of Ikea furniture. While it came naturally to me, he was completely incapable.

Don't tell people what they can do if they try, you have no idea, and it is condescending.

I don't believe it is condescending. I actually think it's more condescending to think some people are just bad at things and they should just give up. It's far, far more likely that you weren't learning the languages in a way that worked for you, and that's why they never stuck.

It will also obviously always be more more difficult to learn something with no real motivation to do so. If sometimes decides they fancy learning a language just because, it's going to be a much harder slog than someone who has a real and immediate need to learn it (communicating with extended family and understanding their own kids).

I've said my piece anyway. I have a very long career history in teaching languages and believe OP should be able to give it a decent go. And if he really, really can't or won't, then he should accept that the kids' bilingualism and future opportunities are more important than his comfort.

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I have a very long career history in teaching languages and believe OP should be able to give it a decent go. And if he really, really can't or won't, then he should accept that the kids' bilingualism and future opportunities are more important than his comfort.

For someone with your alleged teaching skills, your own reading comprehension is spectacularly deficient.

From the OP -

I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn. I have been as opened minded and patient as possible. Put myself in her shoes.

What part of that did you fail to understand ?

What experience do you have of learning a Slavic language ?

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

For someone with your alleged teaching skills, your own reading comprehension is spectacularly deficient.

From the OP -



What part of that did you fail to understand ?

What experience do you have of learning a Slavic language ?

God, do keep up. I've already addressed the fact (multiple times) that people's idea of 'trying really hard' is often far from the reality. Most of the time they're either not really doing much, or they're working very hard and not smart, doing the wrong things and not learning in a way that works for them.

I have learned Russian to a decent elementary level and know a good bit of basic Polish from the two times I went there (short trips as a tourist to stay with friends).

Anything else?

Antares35

eviltwin wrote: »

My mother is foreign and never spoke to us in her native tongue because it was seen as inappropriate not to use English. As a result I have a passable ability to speak her language but regretful that I don't have the same fluency other children have in their parents.

I also feel a bit sorry for my mother that something so personal to her as her culture was being diluted because she lived here. Language is a gift and there is no better way to learn than to be around a native speaker and pick it up by osmosis. It will be huge benefit to the children.

Obviously the wife has gone to the trouble and effort to learn English, I can't see why the OP can't do the same.

That's a good point about it being a gift. Our little girl has a very small family, her only two cousins being on my partner's side in France, and for her to be able to interact with them (and her aunts and nanna in France) she will need the language. Well, the children will probably have English but it will be nice for her to be able to just go to France to see French relatives and you know, speak French!

Looking into a nanny and OH asked if we can get a French speaking one, which I'm giving serious thought to because like that, she will be bombarded with English everywhere else so no harm trying to balance things a bit.

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

God, do keep up. I've already addressed the fact (multiple times) that people's idea of 'trying really hard' is often far from the reality. Most of the time they're either not really doing much, or they're working very hard and not smart, doing the wrong things and not learning in a way that works for them.

What you said, and what I am responding to, is the following -

OP should be able to give it a decent go. And if he really, really can't or won't...

That's a specific statement about a specific individual, and not the general observation you are now backtracking it to be.

Since you've been told more than once here that your assumptions about the language acquisition skills of others are misguided and inded patronising, we must conclude that you are simply incapable of empathising with people who don't have the language acquisition skills you claim to have.

Such a lack of empathy is a serious flaw in any teacher.

I have learned Russian to a decent elementary level and know a good bit of basic Polish from the two times I went there (short trips as a tourist to stay with friends).

Anything else?

Yes.

I've been going to Poland frequently for 15 years, am married to a Polish woman, am deeply interested in their culture and society, and can communicate tentatively in Polish.

I say with great confidence that the value of the Polish you could pick up from two short trips as a tourist to stay with friends, is precious little.

That a language teacher would so nonchalantly dismiss the overwhelming 'otherness' of Slavic languages, is actually risible.

sammyjo90

I tried to learn polish, Wanted to be able to understand some of what my boyfriend at the time was saying to his best friend who only spoke polish.
So i had reason to and wanted to. I got nowhere...what i was learning in the apps etc was completely different to the way he spoke. It was like ulster and munster Irish, they sounded like completely different languages so even trying to get him to teach me and then go off and learn it myself was useless.
We arent together anymore but The only things i can remember 3 years later are the words for fish, milk and bread..

The OP never said he wanted his kids to stop speaking it..he has tried to learn it and struggles. He just wanted to know if he has any cause to ask his wife to speak English in front of him so his children answer back to him in a language he understands.

People have told him once they go to school the children will adapt to knowing daddy only speaks enlglish and soon his feelings of isolation will change. I think this is really all the OP needs to take on board.

Frankie Machine

Returning to the OP, and the request for advice -

You are perfectly entitled to point out to your other half that things are out of balance here.

Meekly accepting that your child persistently speaks to you in a different language than the one you address her in, is a ridiculous concession to the dogma that children are the centre of the universe, and that any attempt to correct them is somehow some kind of child abuse.

You are entitled to that respect as a parent, from the child's other parent.

What people are attempting to portray here as some kind of unqualified glory of polyglotism, often comes about because of what is more convenient for the over-worked parent for whom the 'second' language is native to them. Human nature.

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

What you said, and what I am responding to, is the following -



That's a specific statement about a specific individual, and not the general observation you are now backtracking it to be.

Since you've been told more than once here that your assumptions about the language acquisition skills of others are misguided and inded patronising, we must conclude that you are simply incapable of empathising with people who don't have the language acquisition skills you claim to have.

Such a lack of empathy is a serious flaw in any teacher.



Yes.

I've been going to Poland frequently for 15 years, am married to a Polish woman, am deeply interested in their culture and society, and can communicate tentatively in Polish.

I say with great confidence that the value of the Polish you could pick up from two short trips as a tourist to stay with friends, is precious little.

That a language teacher would so nonchalantly dismiss the overwhelming 'otherness' of Slavic languages, is actually risible.

And I know an English woman who is married to a Polish man, has been learning for about 5 or 6 years, and is completely fluent. What is your point?

I have plenty of empathy for the fact people learn at different speeds and some find it easier than others. I have little patience for the idea that it's impossible for people to learn at all.

I never said my Polish was great - I said I picked up the basics. As in, I recognise a lot of the most common words, especially food words. I was staying in a house with a Polish family and had fun learning bits and pieces with them. It's not a language or culture I'm particularly interested in. I'm fairly confident that if I were married to a Polish man and he spoke Polish to my own children at home, I'd manage a fair bit more than that.

I'm not dismissing the 'otherness' at all. I'm not saying OP should be shooting for C2 level, I'm saying that even with 'difficult' languages, anyone who is making a serious effort and who has a native speaker on hand should make reasonable progress. Certainly enough to understand a three year old asking for ketchup or a glass of water. The idea you think this isn't realistic is what's risible.

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

And I know an English woman who is married to a Polish man, has been learning for about 5 or 6 years, and is completely fluent. What is your point?

That unlike your previous attitude, people's language acquisition abilities vary.
Thanks for proving it, however anecdotally.

I have plenty of empathy for the fact people learn at different speeds and some find it easier than others. I have little patience for the idea that it's impossible for people to learn at all.

Who said that ?

I never said my Polish was great - I said I picked up the basics. As in, I recognise a lot of the most common words, especially food words.

And like I already said, vocabulary does not constitute even 'basics'. It isn't even close. Especially in a highly inflected language such as Polish.

I'm not dismissing the 'otherness' at all. I'm not saying OP should be shooting for C2 level, I'm saying that even with 'difficult' languages, anyone who is making a serious effort and who has a native speaker on hand should make reasonable progress. Certainly enough to understand a three year old asking for ketchup or a glass of water. The idea you think this isn't realistic is what's risible.

Well we certainly needn't be C2 to know what a child is asking for when they say, po Polsku, 'keczup !'

But anyway, that is your (poor) example, and no-one else's.

It gives one the strong impression that you know even less about three-year old children than about Polish grammar.

In any event, since that is the standard you've set, a more careful reading of the OP would have cleared matters up.

I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn.

.

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

That unlike your previous attitude, people's language acquisition abilities vary.
Thanks for proving it, however anecdotally.

I have never said otherwise. I said that it's usually perfectly possible to make up for a lack of natural ability by putting more work in. I found the first few weeks of my programming course unbelievably hard. I was way behind most of the others, unlike most of them had no solid maths or comp sci background, was a good bit older. Should I have just thrown in the towel and quit?

Who said that ?

Several people have claimed not everyone can learn a language to even a conversational level.

And like I already said, vocabulary does not constitute even 'basics'. It isn't even close. Especially in a highly inflected language such as Polish.

Who says? What do you think the word 'basic' means? It certainly doesn't mean constructing perfect sentences. I think most people understand 'basics' to be things like saying hello, introducing yourself, ordering a coffee, asking for the time and understanding the answer, recognising common words like 'bread' and 'milk'.

Well we certainly needn't be C2 to know what a child is asking for when they say, po Polsku, 'keczup !'

But anyway, that is your (poor) example, and no-one else's.

It gives one the strong impression that you know even less about three-year old children than about Polish grammar.

In any event, since that is the standard you've set, a more careful reading of the OP would have cleared matters up.

Jesus Christ, that was the entire point.

ILoveYourVibes

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Meekly accepting that your child persistently speaks to you in a different language than the one you address her in, is a ridiculous concession to the dogma that children are the centre of the universe, and that any attempt to correct them is somehow some kind of child abuse.

You are entitled to that respect as a parent, from the child's other parent.

What people are attempting to portray here as some kind of unqualified glory of polyglotism, often comes about because of what is more convenient for the over-worked parent for whom the 'second' language is native to them. Human nature.

This comes off kinda racist.

How would you feel if you were told to not speak English in Bulgaria?

I mean do you realize there are communities of English speakers in spain who never learn spanish?

I dunno maybe don't marry people with a culture different to yours if you are feeling that way.

The op has his partner living in his country.

Why did he marry someone from another culture?

Well silly to ask now he did.

Well now his children are also a part of that culture.

And he isn't.

If he can't learn the language ...he has to accept he is not apart of it.

And telling children how they can express themselves in their own home is kinda weird.

You should have the right to speak whichever langauge you choose at home.

What is he going to go punish them for speaking polish (or what language it is?)

He is being unacceptable. Its not good parenting.

He is focused on HIS needs.

He feels children are there to NURTURE HIM. Children are not meant to nurture their parents. Parents are meant to nurture them.

Needy parents are very bad for a child's development.

Adults are supposed to be able to meet their own emotional needs by that time.

Hannibal_Smith

Mod Note

As the thread continues to stray into general discussion as opposed to advice, I'm going to close it there. I think the OP has plenty to go on.

If you want the thread reopened OP, just let one of the Mod Team know.

Thanks to all who offered help and advice.

HS