Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now

cnocbui

I have looked at the Renault Zoe/Clio and Nissan Leaf/Micra comparisons, and roughly speaking, for cars with similar performance, excluding range, and excluding motor tax, it seems that it takes 5 years at 20,000 k per year to just break even on the initial price difference, allowing for the cost of petrol and not even allowing for the cost of electricity for the EV over that time.

Ionity chargers deliver electricity that costs more than petrol, taking into account the equivalent Kwh content of petrol at an engine efficiency of 35%

I can't find a cost saving argument to buying an EV if you do 20,000 k per year or less. The range and personal time-saving advantage of a petrol ICE is considerable, IMO.

Gumbo

cnocbui wrote: »

I have looked at the Renault Zoe/Clio and Nissan Leaf/Micra comparisons, and roughly speaking, for cars with similar performance, excluding range, and excluding motor tax, it seems that it takes 5 years at 20,000 k per year to just break even on the initial price difference, allowing for the cost of petrol and not even allowing for the cost of electricity for the EV over that time.

Ionity chargers deliver electricity that costs more than petrol, taking into account the equivalent Kwh content of petrol at an engine efficiency of 35%

I can't find a cost saving argument to buying an EV if you do 20,000 k per year or less. The range and personal time-saving advantage of a petrol ICE is considerable, IMO.

Similar performance.... A Leaf is not in the same bracket as a micra and a Zoe is not in the same bracket as a clio. Both EV’s would laugh in their faces performance wise.

Personal time saving is considerable alright. I park in garden. Plug in. Takes 13 seconds. Sorted.

liamog

cnocbui wrote: »

I can't find a cost saving argument to buying an EV if you do 20,000 k per year or less. The range and personal time-saving advantage of a petrol ICE is considerable, IMO.

It can very much depend on the car, speccing a Mini Cooper SE versus a Mini Cooper S with the same equipment, the ICE version is €7,500 more expensive. Why would anybody buy an ICE vehicle when they are so much more expensive than EVs

On a serious note, most people don't compare the spec when comparing the price, the Kona is a great example where the headline figures when comparing the EV versus the ICE version look much worst than they are. It's long been true in the automotive world that you pay more for better performance and equipment. As the currently available EVs are in such high demand, the manufacturers are more than happy to sell versions that have the high margin add ons. You can even see this with the ID.3, VW still haven't started shipping the lower spec battery and motor, why bother when you can keep running the more profitable version off the production line.

cnocbui

Gumbo wrote: »

Similar performance.... A Leaf is not in the same bracket as a micro and a Zoe is not in the same bracket as a clio. Both EV’s would laugh in their faces performance wise.

Personal time saving is considerable alright. I park in garden. Plug in. Takes 13 seconds. Sorted.

A Renault Clio is 1798mm wide by 4050 long. A Zoe is 1787 wide by 4087 long. That's a massive difference of 0.3% in plan area. Acceleration difference is 11.4 Clio vs 11.0 Zoe. Top speed of the zoe is 135 kph - so not even capable of motorway speeds in a head wind. Top speed of the Clio is 187 kph. Range of the Zoe is 385 km (summer) vs 712 km for the Clio.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

A Renault Clio is 1798mm wide by 4050 long. A Zoe is 1787 wide by 4087 long. That's a massive difference of 0.3% in plan area. Acceleration difference is 11.4 Clio vs 11.0 Zoe. Top speed of the zoe is 135 kph - so not even capable of motorway speeds in a head wind. Top speed of the Clio is 187 kph. Range of the Zoe is 385 km (summer) vs 712 km for the Clio.

Do you not think that 187 Km/hr a bit fast for Irish roads ?

Granted the range of the petrol is much more but do you think you’d not stop after 300 odd kms ? Or is the whole charging thing a turn off for you ?

Gumbo

cnocbui wrote: »

A Renault Clio is 1798mm wide by 4050 long. A Zoe is 1787 wide by 4087 long. That's a massive difference of 0.3% in plan area. Acceleration difference is 11.4 Clio vs 11.0 Zoe. Top speed of the zoe is 135 kph - so not even capable of motorway speeds in a head wind. Top speed of the Clio is 187 kph. Range of the Zoe is 385 km (summer) vs 712 km for the Clio.

Renault say 16.4 seconds 0-100
https://www.renault.ie/cars/clio/specifications.html

They also state a lower top speed of 162kmph.

Jaysus now that’s a slow car!

Black_Knight

RandomViewer wrote: »

Hilux pickup is the same money as an electric Kona, will last twice as long ,hold its money and is more environmentally friendly and if there is a climate war you can mount a machine gun on the bed and carry on regardless

What?

Kona should lose more value. It's way over priced at 38k for what it is. They're totally different utility cars though

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not think that 187 Km/hr a bit fast for Irish roads ?

Granted the range of the petrol is much more but do you think you’d not stop after 300 odd kms ? Or is the whole charging thing a turn off for you ?

Not when the car I currently drive has a top speed of 235 kph.

It's not so much about stopping after 300k as the higher up front purchase cost, which is a biggie when you pay cash for your cars.

Gumbo wrote: »

Renault say 16.4 seconds 0-100
https://www.renault.ie/cars/clio/specifications.html

They also state a lower top speed of 162kmph.

No they don't. Perhaps you are looking at the base engine model? I was quoting for the 100 hp engine variant as that's the closest to the 110 hp zoe engine.

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus now that’s a slow car!

The Irish government wants people to drive slow cars. It's been policy for years.

liamog

cnocbui wrote: »

Not when the car I currently drive has a top speed of 235 kph.

It's not so much about stopping after 300k as the higher up front purchase cost, which is a biggie when you pay cash for your cars.

Top speed is largely irrelevant for most people buying a car in Ireland for use on Irish roads. So long as the car can get to about 125km/h in a timely manner I'm happy enough.

bobbyy gee

liamog wrote: »

It can very much depend on the car, speccing a Mini Cooper SE versus a Mini Cooper S with the same equipment, the ICE version is €7,500 more expensive. Why would anybody buy an ICE vehicle when they are so much more expensive than EVs

On a serious note, most people don't compare the spec when comparing the price, the Kona is a great example where the headline figures when comparing the EV versus the ICE version look much worst than they are. It's long been true in the automotive world that you pay more for better performance and equipment. As the currently available EVs are in such high demand, the manufacturers are more than happy to sell versions that have the high margin add ons. You can even see this with the ID.3, VW still haven't started shipping the lower spec battery and motor, why bother when you can keep running the more profitable version off the production line.

who ever buys a mini is going to cry the peterol one will be getting fixed all the time i don't know about electric minibauality is pretty poor

liamog

bobbyy gee wrote: »

who ever buys a mini is going to cry the peterol one will be getting fixed all the time i don't know about electric minibauality is pretty poor

The electric drivetrain comes from the BMW I3 which has been pretty dependable. I believe the F series Mini's are much better than the R's anyway, there is much more BMW engineering in them than the older ones.

cnocbui

liamog wrote: »

Top speed is largely irrelevant for most people buying a car in Ireland for use on Irish roads. So long as the car can get to about 125km/h in a timely manner I'm happy enough.

To be able to do 120 kph on a motorway into a 60kph headwind, the top speed matters. Getting to speed in a timely manner usually equates with a car that can handily exceed the speed limit.

TheAnalyst_

Lol got a new m340i 6 cylinder. Couldn’t give a fiddlers at mpg.

eagerv

cnocbui wrote: »

To be able to do 120 kph on a motorway into a 60kph headwind, the top speed matters. Getting to speed in a timely manner usually equates with a car having a higher that can handily exceed the speed limit.

I cannot speak for other EVs, but mine has a governed top speed of 160km/h, which is fast enough for me here in Ireland.


Haven't tried it, but looking at tests it seems to be able to maintain that whether up hill, down hill or into a head wind.

SCOOP 64

s8n wrote: »

whats an oil burner ??

yeah when i read title though it maybe a offer on heating oil burners., my boiler is on the way out.

liamog

cnocbui wrote: »

To be able to do 120 kph on a motorway into a 60kph headwind, the top speed matters. Getting to speed in a timely manner usually equates with a car that can handily exceed the speed limit.

I think you have a misunderstanding of how speed limited cars work, they dont measure the air speed to apply the limiter.

paleoperson

lol OP fell for the EV meme.

It's funny the mental gymnastics EV owners will go to to try and justify that their purchase was somehow worth it.

Kramer

paleoperson wrote: »

It's funny the mental gymnastics EV owners will go to to try and justify that their purchase was somehow worth it.

Exactly as uninformed, anti EV posters do, in the opposite direction :P.

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not think that 187 Km/hr a bit fast for Irish roads ?

I dunno, maybe alright on twisty back roads?

.

meeeeh

Nobody really gets to the car's top speed in normal driving condition. To get comfortably to 120 you need top speed of 160km.

80% of driving I do is on roads with speed limit if 80 or more. I would bever buy small engine ice and I certainly wouldn't be happy with something electric with top speed of 130.

graememk

meeeeh wrote: »

Nobody really gets to the car's top speed in normal driving condition. To get comfortably to 120 you need top speed of 160km.

80% of driving I do is on roads with speed limit if 80 or more. I would bever buy small engine ice and I certainly wouldn't be happy with something electric with top speed of 130.

Thats the thing, in a petrol car the engine would be at its limiter to get the top speed,

Electric motor doesn't care, it has the same torque at low rpm as it does at a high one. So you don't need that headroom that a normal engine needs

graememk

graememk wrote: »

Thats the thing, in a petrol car the engine would be at its limiter to get the top speed,

Electric motor doesn't care, it has the same torque at low rpm as it does at a high one. So you don't need that headroom that a normal engine needs

unfortunately not, electric motor torque falls off at higher speeds. This is where a simple 2 speed gearbox would really help at high speeds but for the majority of people it's not an issue.

However its not as simple as this, electric cars can have higher power at higher speeds depending on the kv rating of the motor and how the controller is programmed but would mean less power at the low end.

RandomViewer

Black_Knight wrote: »

What?

Kona should lose more value. It's way over priced at 38k for what it is. They're totally different utility cars though

Average life span of a Hilux is 15-20 years, anyone seen a Hyundai Getz lately

RandomViewer

Watch a bit of that RTE Maya Dunphy environment challenge thing What planet something, anyway the contestants electric bills were up 50-60% a week for charging the electric cars, one of them only did 300kms,

Black_Knight

Yeah but their petrol bill was zero.

EV usage is pretty simple maths. Average house using 4000 kWh a year, is 77kWh a week. Not sure what car they used, but a Kona for example will use 64kWh to travel 400km (48kWh for 300km, say 50kWh for losses). So 50-60% increase sounds about right. On a 24 hour rate (certain they'd be on that) that's about 7-9 euro. 3-4 euro on a night rate.

What's 300km in petrol? €20 at 5ltr/100km @ 1.30 per litre?

In my eyes they're saving €16 a week, not "adding 50% to their electric bill". (I know they're doing both, but my mentality sees the benefits rather than just focusing on the electric bill)

Gumbo

RandomViewer wrote: »

Watch a bit of that RTE Maya Dunphy environment challenge thing What planet something, anyway the contestants electric bills were up 50-60% a week for charging the electric cars, one of them only did 300kms,

Any link to the that figure?
Only details I can find for the show is that the family will be buying an EV in the future.

The Mullingar family are still driving their diesel cars, however, as Jason is a teacher in Longford, and Rachel is a public health nurse.

“Rachel is looking into getting an electric car in the future,” says Jason.

eagerv

RandomViewer wrote: »

Watch a bit of that RTE Maya Dunphy environment challenge thing What planet something, anyway the contestants electric bills were up 50-60% a week for charging the electric cars, one of them only did 300kms,

Nope, because it sounds absolute rubbish.:)


Our Ioniq has done about 12K km since we got it in March, increase in bill is hardly noticeable. Almost all charging has been at home at night, so probably about 1600kWh @ €0.074 incl VAT.




But a lot of household items also now operate at night rate, hence the similar bills as before.


Edit. After reading Black Knights' post above, it is possible. What I didn't see was that there is a second EV involved, interesting to see the miles travelled. Apologies for my rubbish remark..

paleoperson

In fairness, "hardly noticeable" could mean anything. Many people would find their petrol/diesel expenditure hardly noticeable.

You'd be surprised how many People said to me that they wouldn't buy an electric car because it would run up the bill which is already expensive enough, yes I know, they're paying a lot more for Petrol/Diesel and don't see the amount of money they're handing out each week. IF they got a diesel Bill every 2 months they'd be shocked. lol

eagerv

paleoperson wrote: »

In fairness, "hardly noticeable" could mean anything. Many people would find their petrol/diesel expenditure hardly noticeable.

Yes agree, but hard to get an accurate figure as yet.


But easy to do the maths.


1600kWh(For 7 months use) @ .074/unit = €118. Or about €33 per bill.

But our bills are not up that amount, perhaps €5 at a guess. (Due to other household items moving to night rate)

Black_Knight

paleoperson wrote: »

In fairness, "hardly noticeable" could mean anything. Many people would find their petrol/diesel expenditure hardly noticeable.

Things just become normalised, and you don't pay attention to them. I'd say a lot of people realised how much they spend on fuel when covid stopped everyone working (and transitioning to no work or WFH). I can't say I've noticed more money in my pocket because I'm driving an EV, but the math doesn't lie, I am saving vs diesel. About 1k a year.

80sDiesel

I have gone from 1000k a week to 100. I was going to switch to electric but now I am thinking of dailying a classic car.

drumm23

good chart here

https://twitter.com/OliverRakau/status/1313071266409197568/photo/1

RandomViewer

Black_Knight wrote: »

Yeah but their petrol bill was zero.

EV usage is pretty simple maths. Average house using 4000 kWh a year, is 77kWh a week. Not sure what car they used, but a Kona for example will use 64kWh to travel 400km (48kWh for 300km, say 50kWh for losses). So 50-60% increase sounds about right. On a 24 hour rate (certain they'd be on that) that's about 7-9 euro. 3-4 euro on a night rate.

What's 300km in petrol? €20 at 5ltr/100km @ 1.30 per litre?

In my eyes they're saving €16 a week, not "adding 50% to their electric bill". (I know they're doing both, but my mentality sees the benefits rather than just focusing on the electric bill)

My electricity usage last year according to electric Ireland was 6600 units, queried it and EsB technician says that's normal enough,

Gumbo

RandomViewer wrote: »

My electricity usage last year according to electric Ireland was 6600 units, queried it and EsB technician says that's normal enough,

6,600 x 0.18c = €1188 per year.
About €22 per week.

Seems about normal to me too. I would use similar but I also charge my EV but I also have a 3kw Solar PV system.

paleoperson

Black_Knight wrote: »

In my eyes they're saving €16 a week, not "adding 50% to their electric bill". (I know they're doing both, but my mentality sees the benefits rather than just focusing on the electric bill)

Noone is saying the money is different because it's on an electric bill rather than at the pump. We are saying that right now it's not worth the hassle for most people.

Black_Knight

paleoperson wrote: »

Noone is saying the money is different because it's on an electric bill rather than at the pump. We are saying that right now it's not worth the hassle for most people.

You've lost me. What hassle? I'm addressing a post saying that electric bills went really high when they drive an electric car for 300km, but ignoring the lack of a petrol expense. I did the math and while your electric bill goes up, your petrol bill disappears entirely.

If the hassle you're referring to is public charging on long drives then your weight that up against the savings you're making. No such thing as a free meal. I for instance have had an entirety of 70 minutes of hassle this year. With the savings I've made on diesel minus the additional cost of electricity that 70 minutes was like being paid out at a rate of around €600/hr.

meeeeh

Diesel card doesn't extend to electricity...

MadYaker

liamog wrote: »

Which infrastructure? The infrastructure for charging at home in rural areas (rural electrification was a 1940's scheme) is already there.

The infrastructure and technology that's needed to make electric cars as convenient as ICE cars.

cnocbui

You are not making a saving unless you are spending most of your waking hours behind the wheel.

All you are doing is paying a large sum of money upfront in order to pay less at the pump or meter. For anyone doing average annual mileage they won't even break even for 5 to 7 years. It's as daft as paying thousands for solar panels on your house and then claiming you are saving on your electricity bill, when you only break even and start to make a saving 10 years later.

liamog

paleoperson wrote: »

Noone is saying the money is different because it's on an electric bill rather than at the pump. We are saying that right now it's not worth the hassle for most people.

We turned a €200 a month petrol bill into a €20 a month electric bill. If we had to rapid charge for 1 hour every 6 weeks, roughly means 9 hours of my time has given me back €2,160. I get paid a lot less than €240 an hour, so yes it was well worth the hassle.

MadYaker

Black_Knight wrote: »

Yeah but their petrol bill was zero.

EV usage is pretty simple maths. Average house using 4000 kWh a year, is 77kWh a week. Not sure what car they used, but a Kona for example will use 64kWh to travel 400km (48kWh for 300km, say 50kWh for losses). So 50-60% increase sounds about right. On a 24 hour rate (certain they'd be on that) that's about 7-9 euro. 3-4 euro on a night rate.

What's 300km in petrol? €20 at 5ltr/100km @ 1.30 per litre?

In my eyes they're saving €16 a week, not "adding 50% to their electric bill". (I know they're doing both, but my mentality sees the benefits rather than just focusing on the electric bill)

Do you factor in the relative depreciation of each vehicle?

paleoperson

liamog wrote: »

We turned a €200 a month petrol bill into a €20 a month electric bill. If we had to rapid charge for 1 hour every 6 weeks, roughly means 9 hours of my time has given me back €2,160. I get paid a lot less than €240 an hour, so yes it was well worth the hassle.

Your numbers sound suspicious to me, but I don't have access to your bills. Here it does a run-down of the costs EV vs diesel and it comes to the conclusion that electric is slightly cheaper per mile generally:

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/650/cost-of-running-an-electric-car

For that fractional saving on costs - I actually thought it would be significantly more, especially when you consider the highly generous subsidies you're getting from the government (ie. the rest of us) to use this technology - it's hardly worth all the hassle for the vast majority of people.

It may be worth it for you and if so good luck to you, but not for most people. Also I'm not sure if you can claim the moral/environmental upper ground considering you're dipping into the government climate change funding so much.

RandomViewer

Have 2 cars, 20 diesel and 13 petrol, Diesel is 30euro a fortnight as my wife uses it during the week and any running at the weekend, I use the petrol car for work and use about 20euro a month.No finance on either car and 290 and 390 tax , insurance for the two is approx 850euro altogether. Ev would be of no use to me whatsoever although I saw a hybrid 17 Ioniq that looked the part for sale today.

paleoperson

RandomViewer wrote: »

Have 2 cars, 20 diesel and 13 petrol, Diesel is 30euro a fortnight as my wife uses it during the week and any running at the weekend, I use the petrol car for work and use about 20euro a month.No finance on either car and 290 and 390 tax , insurance for the two is approx 850euro altogether. Ev would be of no use to me whatsoever although I saw a hybrid 17 Ioniq that looked the part for sale today.

Hybrid is surely the way to go in the long-term. I really don't understand the point of EV, seems pointless when you can simply keep all the benefits of gas by having a hybrid.

liamog

paleoperson wrote: »

Your numbers sound suspicious to me, but I don't have access to your bills. Here it does a run-down of the costs EV vs diesel and it comes to the conclusion that electric is slightly cheaper per mile generally:

A reasonable rule of thumb when comparing cars charged at night rate is 1c/6c/8c per km when comparing EV/Diesel/Petrol. Our electricity with Energia is 6.68c/kWh at night, the Ioniq has a rated efficency of 15.6kWh/100km meaning 100km costs us €1.04. Our Punto was fairly thirsty and was costing us around 10c/km.

Black_Knight

MadYaker wrote: »

Do you factor in the relative depreciation of each vehicle?

I have done so, but not in that calculation above. I calculated total expenditure (services, tolls, parts, fuel, depreciation, tax, insurance, nct) over the 7 years I owned my old Passat cc (3 year old when I bought it) and the depreciation, Vs total public charging costs and home charging costs and all other expenses for my current ioniq (2 years old when I bought it, have it 18+ months now). Electric works out about €70 cheaper a month so far. That €70 will only get greater as depreciation eases off year on year. Passat cc would have lost a big chunk of its depreciation before I bought it, whereas the ioniq was a bit young for me to benefit similarly.

I know 70 euro isn't much, but 1) I didn't incur any massive cost price as I bought second hand. I had a budget to change my car, I stuck to it and happened to buy an EV. 2) it's early days, and year 3 of a car is still a heavy depreciation year, so I expect to save more Vs my old cc the longer I have an EV 3) I do little mileage so I'm on the lower end of the savings scale.

liamog

paleoperson wrote: »

Hybrid is surely the way to go in the long-term. I really don't understand the point of EV, seems pointless when you can simply keep all the benefits of gas by having a hybrid.

You're missing the benefits of getting an EV, very cheap per km costs, and a car that you only have to spend 30s charging, instead of driving to a petrol station. You can gain a lot of the same benefits by purchasing a PHEV, if you can work within their limited range they can suit a lot of people, and give you the benefits of an EV.

Black_Knight

paleoperson wrote: »

Hybrid is surely the way to go in the long-term. I really don't understand the point of EV, seems pointless when you can simply keep all the benefits of gas by having a hybrid.

Hybrid is a stepping stone, and quickly becoming an outdated one at that. Pretty much all on this forum agree they're rarely the right option.
Lots of motorway driving? Get a diesel.
Town driving? Get a small electric
Mixed? Get electric.

Mixed but can't afford electric, ok, hybrid.

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Mixed but can't afford electric, ok, hybrid.

Isn't that where we recommend a PHEV instead, I'm basically at the point of telling people to ignore hybrids, it's just not a factor in the decision making.